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shafique · Nov 01, 2006

kanelli wrote:I don't know what to call them... the black much looser dresses that some women wear, and the full-face veil and gloves. Is this a sign that a woman has very high self esteem? I mean, does she think that she is so stunning that she had better keep every inch of herself covered so that she does not have men chasing her everywhere?

Do you really think that is why they cover top to bottom?

Cheers,
Shafique

asc_26 · Nov 01, 2006

I think so shafique. I've asked some arabic ladies and they answered me YES. :lol:

kanelli · Nov 01, 2006

If the issue is about what a woman is wearing, why is it that non-Muslim women who dress conservatively with long sleeves and long pants - loose fitting even - can still be harassed by Muslim men? If a covered woman is a mark of a "good" non-sleazy woman, why do non-Muslim women who cover appropriately still get treated like sluts?

One can assume that someone who dresses slutty is in fact a fairy, but one might be wrong. One might also be wrong to assume that an abayaa wearing woman isn't capable of being a fairy, despite her form of dress in public.

I think that women can agree that showing too much flesh will attract attention. The point is that while it is a woman's choice to wear such clothing, it is also a man's choice how he conducts himself around women. If a woman is dressed in a skimpy way and is nice to look at - give her discreet glances and enjoy. Her manner of dress should not be interpreted as an invitation to harass her or attack her. If she is dressed in a skimpy way and it looks terrible, you won't have any problems ignoring her - so the problem is solved. :lol:

A woman wearing clothes that are tight in some places and loose in others to show off her figure better is exactly the same as men wearing tailored suits or t-shirts and jeans/shorts that also accentuate the male form. Men in official uniforms that cover much of the body are almost universally considered s.e.x.y by women. For some reason though, the onus is exclusively on the women to dress in a way that stops men from finding them attractive. Why, when women like to feel good about themselves and when men like to see a woman who looks good in her clothes? I certainly don't mind seeing good looking people in my environment. Besides, covering the body just shifts the focus to the face which then becomes the standard for beauty and can produce the same "lustful" reactions from men anyhow. Outward appearance does count.

A woman's body is for her own use and her own pleasure. She should be able to wear what she thinks suits her and makes her feel good. In that regard, I disagree with your assertion that uncovered women seem only to benefit men.

rvp_legend · Nov 01, 2006

shafique wrote:A simple question.

Why do women wear revealing clothes in public - i.e. tight, or skimpy?

Great post Shafique,

In my honest opinion, much has to do with Fashion and Media.
Just like Many women like to be Skinny. Just like my G/F recently complained that she is struggling to buy flat shoes, as Heels are so popular now.

The slim woman is the media's choice for a woman.

The slightly more "Skimpy/revealing" dressing is something which is promoted by the Designers nowadays.

Women probably geniunely feel good about themselves when they choose this type of clothing. Its the norm these days.

In my opinion, a women can look sexy regardless skimpy or loose. Presentation makes the difference. Why do i say that?

Well, the most sexiest woman i ever met was an Iranian in Sweden, who wore the Hijab, fully covered but slightly hugging........very classy!

shafique · Nov 02, 2006

kanelli wrote:If the issue is about what a woman is wearing, why is it that non-Muslim women who dress conservatively with long sleeves and long pants - loose fitting even - can still be harassed by Muslim men? If a covered woman is a mark of a "good" non-sleazy woman, why do non-Muslim women who cover appropriately still get treated like sluts?

No, the issue/question was why women choose to wear revealing clothes.

We can discuss how Muslim or Non-Muslim men react to women and whether that is right or wrong.

kanelli wrote:One can assume that someone who dresses slutty is in fact a fairy, but one might be wrong. One might also be wrong to assume that an abayaa wearing woman isn't capable of being a fairy, despite her form of dress in public.

I wasn't soliciting assumptions.

kanelli wrote:I think that women can agree that showing too much flesh will attract attention. The point is that while it is a woman's choice to wear such clothing, it is also a man's choice how he conducts himself around women. If a woman is dressed in a skimpy way and is nice to look at - give her discreet glances and enjoy. Her manner of dress should not be interpreted as an invitation to harass her or attack her. If she is dressed in a skimpy way and it looks terrible, you won't have any problems ignoring her - so the problem is solved.

I agree it's a woman's choice. Hence the question 'why?'

Note I did not talk about well-tailored vs ill-fitting. Abayas, Salwar Kameezes etc etc can all be very chic and fashionable and flattering - but they aren't 'skin tight' or showing flesh - which was the question posed.

kanelli wrote:A woman's body is for her own use and her own pleasure. She should be able to wear what she thinks suits her and makes her feel good. In that regard, I disagree with your assertion that uncovered women seem only to benefit men.

My observation was that it is the men who are the main beneficiaries of women dressing s.e.x.i.l.y. - based on the responses in this thread.

Note I put 'feminism' in the title - implicitly I was hoping people would view it as an invitation to tell us men what's in it for women to dress s.e.x.i.l.y

I don't think its a question of muslim vs non-muslim either - there are many Muslim women who choose do dress provokatively and have a flirtatious attitude and there are very many non-Muslim and non-religious women who choose to dress 'classicly'; 'conservatively' or 'modestly' - I was exploring why some make the choice to dress 'like a vamp' and others choose not to.

Thus far it's - 'because they can'; 'they want the attraction'; 'it is appropriate for the occasion - such as when on the pull or in a nightclub'; 'to please boyfriend'; 'to boost self esteem'; 'to show off the body'.

The observation was that of these numerous reasons, the majority are benefiting men more than the woman.

Or am I missing something? (You know us men are less perceptive than women! It's a biological fact ! )

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Nov 02, 2006

Shafique, many women have provided answers here, and you obviously are keeping your own opinions on the matter, so what more is there to discuss?

In a nutshell, we women wear whatever clothes we want because a) they make us feel good, b) our culture accepts women's freedom in choice of dress.

Too bad you side-stepped the other questions, because they are still relevant to this topic.

shafique · Nov 02, 2006

Kanelli - thanks for summing up the thread.

You say women wear skimpy clothes as it makes them feel good. It was a given that the culture would allow them to - as I asked why women choose to wear the skimpy clothing in public.

However, that reason was only one of many given.

I'm not sure why you're projecting an 'opinion' on me on this issue. I have never said women shouldn't be able to choose what to wear - I leave that to others who call for the banning of pieces of cloth.

I merely summarised the thread and observed that the main beneficiaries seem to be the men who look at the women, rather than the women themselves. Am I wrong to conclude this?

Maybe it is just a beneficial side effect of the 'liberation' wearing skimpy clothes gives to women?

As for the other issues - you know me, I don't run away from a debate.. why don't you pick an issue and let's discuss it in a new thread.

I can only speak for men - we thank all those 'liberated' 'self assured' women with fit bodies. Based on the comments, it would be rude not to notice, don't you think?

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Nov 03, 2006

Yes, it is wrong to conclude that men are the only ones benefiting. Women feel good when they look good and can dress for any type of weather. Sun feels great on the skin, and in hot temperatures it is cooler to wear less clothing or only one layer of clothing. Wearing clothing from head to toe and in multiple layers is simply not practical in all conditions. A woman with high self-esteem may or may not be more likely to wear skimpier clothing - each woman is an individual. As I said before, men are free to wear what they like and women enjoy looking at them. To me it is an equal situation. However, perhaps some men are more likely to say - "Hey, she is really attractive. Damn her for making me think impure thoughts. She is such a s.l.u.t.". Whereas women don't tend to think so illogically. They just think, "Hmm, there is a fine looking male specimen." :lol:

We can bring in a debate about nature and how it might affect the way both men and women dress.

Don't other animals in nature show off their assets in order to attract a mate?

Covering up a body to hide assets, gender segregation, arranged pairing for mating, plastic surgery, and mass media messages about what is s.e.x.y are all intrusions on nature's own mechanisms for ensuring that people choose good breeding partners for the propagation of a genetically strong species. Lots of studies have shown that there are universal markers that men and women instinctively find attractive about the opposite s.e.x. Symmetrical face, hip to waist ratio, chest size, amount of hair, cheek and lip colour, etc. Even smell is an important factor. Despite nature, we are more consciously aware and higher thinking beings than other animals we share the planet with, and therefore we should be able to combine our natural s.e.x.u.a.l attraction with respect for people as fellow human beings.

shafique · Nov 03, 2006

kanelli wrote:Yes, it is wrong to conclude that men are the only ones benefiting. Women feel good when they look good and can dress for any type of weather.

When does 'main' become 'only'?

kanelli wrote:Don't other animals in nature show off their assets in order to attract a mate?

Excellent arguement kanelli. Animals do it - so should we. You have persuaded me.

kanelli wrote:Covering up a body to hide assets, gender segregation, arranged pairing for mating, plastic surgery, and mass media messages about what is s.e.x.y are all intrusions on nature's own mechanisms for ensuring that people choose good breeding partners for the propagation of a genetically strong species. Lots of studies have shown that there are universal markers that men and women instinctively find attractive about the opposite s.e.x. Symmetrical face, hip to waist ratio, chest size, amount of hair, cheek and lip colour, etc. Even smell is an important factor. Despite nature, we are more consciously aware and higher thinking beings than other animals we share the planet with, and therefore we should be able to combine our natural s.e.x.u.a.l attraction with respect for people as fellow human beings.

Men are attracted to women and vice versa - that is how we have been built.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the physical attributes of persons. Fair enough. Islam says that this is important in a relationship, but that one's character and also outlook on life is as important - notably the intention one has when entering into a relationship (marriage, instead of just dating).

However, this is not what this post is about - it's asking the question why women choose to wear revealing clothes in public. The key words are choose, revealing and public.

I have nothing against s.e.x.y. clothing - I have nothing against women and nothing against women's choices.

Do you at least agree that women should not be vilified, viewed as oppressed, viewed as old fashioned if they don't want to show off flesh?

This is an assumption on my part - so correct me if I'm wrong ladies - but I don't think those who wear an abaya, for example, appreciate people's 'pity' for them. My wife often shakes her head at the acres of flesh on display by teenagers to grandmothers in the shopping malls and streets these days - it's not out of disapproval, but out of pity - she says.

But as a man - I take my hat off to those who have persuaded women to go out in revealing clothes and have them think they are doing it for themselves! Genius.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Nov 03, 2006

It is impossible for me to remember all the wording when we have been posting such long posts. Forgive me for my inaccuracy.

I have been putting a lot of emphasis on physical attributes because we are talking about outward appearances, not personality.

I too shake my head at the skimpy outfits I see some women and men wearing in the shopping malls etc. How much is too revealing? Some people can't handle seeing shoulders, some can. Some people can't handle seeing any part of a woman's leg, some can. Some people only cringe when they see cleavage and too much leg (like me). I also shake my head when I see Muslim couples where the woman in completely covered, including her face, while her husband walks next to her in shorts and t-shirt! It is far too subjective to talk about "revealing" when so many people define revealing in different ways. In the 7Days photo illustrating how inappropriately women were dressing during Ramadan, there was one woman who had a spaghetti strapped top that completely covered her chest (no cleavage) and it was dress-like over top of a pair of long jeans. Apparently, this was highly inappropriate. I would not have batted an eyelash at that. Then there was a woman wearing a t-shirt and 3/4 length pants. That too was supposedly an example of immodest dress. Well, I wear t-shirts and 3/4 length pants to the mall. I also wear 3/4 length tops and knee length skirts. I do not wear spaghetti strap tops and knee length skirts together because that is just too much skin at once for this part of the world. I guess I might be one of the women who is considered immodestly dressed. However, as long as Muslim men are allowed to wear shorts and t-shirts/tank tops in public - I will also continue to cover the same parts of my body in public. Fair and square.

By the way, I don't find the national dress that people wear here archaic at all. It is a bit novel for me because in the West we don't have a similar kind of national dress anymore. Tradition is not always a bad thing. I don't pity Abayaa wearing women. It is only outdoors in full sun (like at the golf tournament I mentioned) that I feel sorry for women covered in layers of black clothing. My reaction to women who cover themselves completely so I can't see an inch of skin is that they are a bit arrogant. I feel they are over-estimating their beauty and the reaction of men in the environment. That is a bias I need to get over obviously - but it stems from my view that not all men find all women attractive and want to pursue them s.e.x.u.a.l.l.y. Covered women also need to get over their biases of uncovered women.

Chocoholic · Nov 03, 2006

OK. In many societies women are under pressure to look good at all times, and particularly here in Dubai, there is 'big' pressure to look s.e.x.y! Media and society have much to blame, but also to bring about a point about finding a mate, where the women out number guys here, you have to do what is necessary to attract attention, and sadly no matter how many times you say other wise, first impressions and looks count.

On the pages of magazines and papers everyday we see gorgeous women, wearing great clothes. So of course us mere mortals would like to emulate this.

But clothes don't necessarily have to be overly revealing, just well fitting. For example, I'll admit that I have a pretty good little body, but I don't have to flash the flesh to show it off, some nice tight fitting trousers with a well fitting top also does the trick, and guys still pay attention.

Why shouldn't a woman want to look good in public? Plus you guys seem to forget that there is much pressure on us, when every guy in this town seems to like teens or 20 somethings, what about the slightly older women? Should they still not show they have something to offer? And can look just as good? I'm 31 and if I go out to a club and am surrounded by 20 somethings all dressed up to the nines, it can be really intimidating, why shouldn't I show that I can look just as good, if not better?

You also forget biological factors, that for many women they feel the biological clock is ticking and time can be running out to find a partner, husband and have a family. Women's lives are very pressurised in this area.

shafique · Nov 03, 2006

Great post Chocs - I agree with your views and observations.

Those who choose to go down the route of 'arranged introductions' (aka arranged marriages) are spared the issues you point out.

Kanelli thanks for your views too. Total coverage of all skin is a bit extreme in my eyes too. (incidentally, not sure if this is true, but I read that a black loose abaya was better than a white kandoora at keeping one cool in the sun - it was about absorbing heat and setting up a current of air as cool air rushed in under the dress to displace the hot air near the cloth... these types of clothing were developed for desert dwellings - where covering the mouth was to keep sand out, for example)

I think we've done this topic to death..

Cheers,
Shafique

Mr & Mrs Inquirer · Nov 03, 2006

OK. In many societies women are under pressure to look good at all times, and particularly here in Dubai, there is 'big' pressure to look s.e.x.y! Media and society have much to blame, but also to bring about a point about finding a mate, where the women out number guys here, you have to do what is necessary to attract attention,

Your talking about Dubai so woman should be cover head to foot. why would Westerners want to see local females looking so called s.e.x.y if one wants to see traffic stopping woman they would go West

kanelli · Nov 03, 2006

An Abayaa would be cooler to wear if there wasn't already a full outfit underneath. :lol:

shafique · Nov 03, 2006

I thought these words from the article in the other thread may have some resonance here:

Women are mixing freely with men, vying with one another in attracting them. They find pleasure and pride in exposing their beauty. They are even competing with one another in displaying their beauty contests for women all around the world. They are treating their bodies as they are some kind of commodities available for display for anybody to look and gaze freely at.

They are not aware of the danger of their acts and the harm, injury and damage they are causing to themselves and to their society. They think that this is freedom but is it really so? What was thought to be the freedom of a woman turned out to be the very cause of her degradation and the destruction of her dignity and far from acquiring her freedom she was reduced to the degree of slavery. She became a slave to passions and carnal desires. With her own will, she made herself a slave for the pleasure of man.

If we look at those so called free societies today we will not find any trace of morality let alone spirituality. We will only see dissolution and depravity. A society will all the ills one can imagine. Broken marriages, illegitimate children, intentional abortions and unfaithfulness between married and even unmarried partners are only a few products of these societies. The easy availability of women for the pleasure of men has resulted in them being no longer desired by men and therefore we see more social evils like child abuse, s.e.x, drug addiction and crimes of rape and even murder for the sake of excitement.

It can be seen clearly that the first to suffer from these social ailments are the women themselves who bear the greatest responsibility for this to happen.

Concord · Nov 03, 2006

shafique wrote:I think we've done this topic to death..

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Nov 03, 2006

shafique wrote:I thought these words from the article in the other thread may have some resonance here:

Women are mixing freely with men, vying with one another in attracting them. They find pleasure and pride in exposing their beauty. They are even competing with one another in displaying their beauty contests for women all around the world. They are treating their bodies as they are some kind of commodities available for display for anybody to look and gaze freely at.

They are not aware of the danger of their acts and the harm, injury and damage they are causing to themselves and to their society. They think that this is freedom but is it really so? What was thought to be the freedom of a woman turned out to be the very cause of her degradation and the destruction of her dignity and far from acquiring her freedom she was reduced to the degree of slavery. She became a slave to passions and carnal desires. With her own will, she made herself a slave for the pleasure of man.

If we look at those so called free societies today we will not find any trace of morality let alone spirituality. We will only see dissolution and depravity. A society will all the ills one can imagine. Broken marriages, illegitimate children, intentional abortions and unfaithfulness between married and even unmarried partners are only a few products of these societies. The easy availability of women for the pleasure of men has resulted in them being no longer desired by men and therefore we see more social evils like child abuse, s.e.x, drug addiction and crimes of rape and even murder for the sake of excitement.

It can be seen clearly that the first to suffer from these social ailments are the women themselves who bear the greatest responsibility for this to happen.

And I think it is bullcrap

asc_26 · Nov 03, 2006

shafique wrote:I thought these words from the article in the other thread may have some resonance here:

Women are mixing freely with men, vying with one another in attracting them. They find pleasure and pride in exposing their beauty. They are even competing with one another in displaying their beauty contests for women all around the world. They are treating their bodies as they are some kind of commodities available for display for anybody to look and gaze freely at.

They are not aware of the danger of their acts and the harm, injury and damage they are causing to themselves and to their society. They think that this is freedom but is it really so? What was thought to be the freedom of a woman turned out to be the very cause of her degradation and the destruction of her dignity and far from acquiring her freedom she was reduced to the degree of slavery. She became a slave to passions and carnal desires. With her own will, she made herself a slave for the pleasure of man.

If we look at those so called free societies today we will not find any trace of morality let alone spirituality. We will only see dissolution and depravity. A society will all the ills one can imagine. Broken marriages, illegitimate children, intentional abortions and unfaithfulness between married and even unmarried partners are only a few products of these societies. The easy availability of women for the pleasure of men has resulted in them being no longer desired by men and therefore we see more social evils like child abuse, s.e.x, drug addiction and crimes of rape and even murder for the sake of excitement.

It can be seen clearly that the first to suffer from these social ailments are the women themselves who bear the greatest responsibility for this to happen.

I hate this! :roll:

shafique · Nov 03, 2006

Nothing like a cat fight!

:lol:

mema · Nov 03, 2006

kanelli dear

As u stated its all about self steam.. in a different scenario can't u accept that there are those of us who had the freedom to wear what ever we like bt choose to wear modestly and we find our highest self steam in covering up hijab,abaya, the full coverup ..if u find peace inside then outside doesn't matter..the inconvenient part is ur assumption its easier than u think n u get used to it..for example i feel that the sari the Indian women wear is un practical at all with all the layers yet its beautiful n they have to keep that tradition for ever.

n women who do cover up from head to toe don't do it becz they feel they are extremely beautiful cuz we have old ladies wearing it my mom is one of them..its becuz they reached a state in their believe they feel their are more devoted to Allah that way..but most them are strong believers, smart and outspoken women.

kanelli · Nov 05, 2006

Mema, I have never said that women who cover up are not smart or outspoken. Also, I am not sure why you think I can't accept that some women want to cover up. As I said, I FEEL THAT A WOMAN SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR WHAT SHE WANTS.

I respect if a woman wants to cover up, but I personally don't think it is necessary to do so. We all know that dressing more modestly is more tasteful and helps prevent too much attention coming your way, but the main issue is with men's behaviour in the end, because they can and do still harass and abuse modestly dressed women. Believe me, I know that covered women have plenty of opinions on uncovered women's dress, and those opinions aren't pretty. Perhaps they need a little more understanding as well?

Interesting that hardly any men wanted to comment here. You guys didn't want to say anything that sheds some light on men's views of women in various states of dress?

rvp_legend · Nov 05, 2006

kanelli wrote:Mema, I have never said that women who cover up are not smart or outspoken. Also, I am not sure why you think I can't accept that some women want to cover up. As I said, I FEEL THAT A WOMAN SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR WHAT SHE WANTS.

I respect if a woman wants to cover up, but I personally don't think it is necessary to do so. We all know that dressing more modestly is more tasteful and helps prevent too much attention coming your way, but the main issue is with men's behaviour in the end, because they can and do still harass and abuse modestly dressed women. Believe me, I know that covered women have plenty of opinions on uncovered women's dress, and those opinions aren't pretty. Perhaps they need a little more understanding as well?

Interesting that hardly any men wanted to comment here. You guys didn't want to say anything that sheds some light on men's views of women in various states of dress?

i have some views on this.
i have no opinion on how a woman dresses, its no skin off my nose.

i will respect them for their choice.
If i was given an absolute choice to make of the 2, modest or not so..i would choose modest quite simply because i find it more attractive.But doesnt mean my attitude is different to the "not - so" modest.

Fashion can be crazy, often provocative for some. But as you say, some balanced views are required as many people have strong attitudes towards "not - so" modest dressing, often labelling them as cheap. Equally many women with "not-so" modest dress senses have strong views on the modest ones, often labelling them as oppressed, or even backward.

So you can never satisfy everyone.

Choice should be respected. Dress sense doesnt represent intelligence. There are often underlying reasons why someone chooses to dress the way they do.

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