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A bit of a philosophical mood at the moment.

Let me first say what my definition of religion is:

A set of rules by which a person chooses to live their lives, which governs their spiritual conduct (eg how, to whom, how often they pray etc) and also their social conduct (how they treat each other, dietary, dress etc codes).

The above will therefore encompass 'humanism' and 'atheism' (as well as 'agnosticism') as 'religions'.

However for the sake of this discussion, let us answer the question i relation to religions who claim to be from a Prophet or ultimately from God ... i.e. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Budhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confuciousism, Zoroastrianism, Bahaism, Sikhism and so on.

What is good, and what is bad about these.

For extra credit, compare and contrast the goods and bads with 'secular' laws - both current and historical laws (eg. many countries had laws which said a wife was the property of the husband, that it was ok to have slaves, that it was ok to discriminate based on race etc -- oops, I may be biased here )

Cheers,
Shafique

You can have rules of 'humanity' without having religion. It goes without saying that people should be kind and treat other as they would wish to be treated, you don't need a religion to tell you that. You can have faith without belonging to religion, which for me is just a way to have the masses all synched to the same agenda.

I agree with Chocs.

Religion definitely helps some people on a personal level, but as soon as you start grouping religious people together the problems begin. I'm not a fan of organised religion at all.

Chocoholic wrote:You can have rules of 'humanity' without having religion. It goes without saying that people should be kind and treat other as they would wish to be treated, you don't need a religion to tell you that. You can have faith without belonging to religion, which for me is just a way to have the masses all synched to the same agenda.

Turn the clock back 200 years in UK and the laws of 'humanity' said it was ok to own slaves and that wives were the property of their husbands.

Who decides on the laws? If it is popular opinion, or even majority opinion - then who protects the views of the minorities (if the majority say that the minority should not have rights). Hitler was elected fairly and squarely - South Africa was a democracy under Apartheid era etc etc.

Is it wrong to have everyone 'synched to the same agenda'?

The agenda could be humanistic values, as it could be nazism, communism etc.

I suppose it comes down to whether we think we should have laws or not - and what those laws should be based on. You could argue we don't need laws and religion.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:I agree with Chocs.

Religion definitely helps some people on a personal level, but as soon as you start grouping religious people together the problems begin. I'm not a fan of organised religion at all.

I'm not a fan of politicians and the political systems in the US (and elsewhere) - looking back at history, politicians have caused so much bloodshed and suffering!

Cheers,
Shafique

*Cough* and slavery and women being viewed as property doesn't happen in this part of the world today?

I was just going to say the same thing Chocs. Just because the Indians and Pakistanis etc. aren't rounded up and stolen from their villages and taken on ships in chains to Dubai doesn't mean they aren't still slave labour. Companies are making billions of dollars here on the backs of poorly paid and poorly treated men and women from various countries. The argument that they are making more than what they would make at home doesn't wash with me, because they live in horrible conditions here just to send money back home - plus they are separated from their families completely for years on end.

I'd also like to point out that religion was present in those civilisations and still evils like slavery were supported in society.

Do you remember Maslow's Heirachy of Needs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_h ... y_of_needs I truly feel that anything immoral can happen in societies where the population is at different levels on the pyramid. For example, in some societies with hardships like poverty - they only care about a shelter, food, and staying alive. Human life is worth less and people do what is necessary to survive. In societies that have better basic conditions for people, they are able to focus on higher needs and move at varying speeds up the pyramid. Even at those stages people are subject to biases and are closed minded to consider ethical issues like whether people from other groups are equal to them, or what the gender roles should be in society etc. I don't think religion is the sole answer to these "growing pains" of societies, I think that humans can follow the basic morality of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." without being told to do so in a church, temple, synagogue or mosque.

Society can have and requires laws and rules for people to live by, but you certainly don't need religion to reinforce it. As I said before there are laws of 'human kind'. The problem I have with religion enforcing or reinforcing things, is that they can so ingrain things into people that they can behave with animosity towards others who maybe don't stick to things so rigidly, this goes for all religions, and that's why you have people who would go against everything they've been taught to enforce their 'laws' on others using force.

Man will always fight and try to gain things from his brothers, in his human nature to do this. But what I don't like is people acting like robots all preaching from the same hymn sheet. Where's the individuality?

I have some religious family members and sometimes I can tell how much comfort it gives them. They like to know that they have a purpose in life, and that something waits for them after. Otherwise, I don't really feel like they are more ethical than other non-religious people around them. Some people seem big on the forgiveness aspect in religion, and this allows them to do unethical things (sin) but then repent to God and all is forgiven.

wow, this subject is so sensitive, its driving me crazy...hehe

Now K, there's an interesting question. Is it fair, that religions say that God (if he/she/it exists) will forgive sinners if they repent? Does it not mean that even those who have the committed to most awful of crimes can gain forgiveness, from religion/god just by saying sorry? Certainly society does not accept this, why does religion?

I say there is nothing good or bad with religion. There are just simply good and bad people that happen to belong to a certain religion. In most cases people belong to a particular religion not by choice [were born into the religion and simply choose to remain there, etc.].

So every religion has the capability of doing good and doing harm! It's been so shown before and will continue to.

Interestingly the discussion shifted from religion to politics (2 different animals - sometimes used together).

In my own experience the "baddest" people I've encountered tend to be the most religious.

I guess I would agree with that Concord. Religion has good intentions but it is the humans who keep mucking it up and misusing it.

Ok - religion has good intentions. Cool - at least one good thing about religion.

Chocs - re slavery and women - I know what you mean.


All the negatives said about religion can be said about politics, nationalism and the like. Interesting.


Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:Society can have and requires laws and rules for people to live by, but you certainly don't need religion to reinforce it. As I said before there are laws of 'human kind'. The problem I have with religion enforcing or reinforcing things, is that they can so ingrain things into people that they can behave with animosity towards others who maybe don't stick to things so rigidly, this goes for all religions, and that's why you have people who would go against everything they've been taught to enforce their 'laws' on others using force.

Man will always fight and try to gain things from his brothers, in his human nature to do this. But what I don't like is people acting like robots all preaching from the same hymn sheet. Where's the individuality?

Good points.

Religion can be viewed as a club or group which you decide to join/stay/support.

If I understand the arguement against religion above correctly - the bad thing is that it provides a common set of values/rules and separates the adherents from others. This +can+ lead to animosity.

Can it not lead to animosity? Can it be a force for good?

The possibility that a thing can be misused does not make that thing bad - one normally looks at the whole picture. Cars kill, but that is not their intention - and most of us drive or travel in cars - for example.

Apologies for making people's heads hurt

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:Now K, there's an interesting question. Is it fair, that religions say that God (if he/she/it exists) will forgive sinners if they repent? Does it not mean that even those who have the committed to most awful of crimes can gain forgiveness, from religion/god just by saying sorry? Certainly society does not accept this, why does religion?

Only in Christianity is there an absolute promise of salvation for repentence. You'll have to take this question up with Christians.

Under Judaism, Islam and other religions - your fate will depend on your actions and God's mercy.

Cheers,
Shafique

Religion seems to be both a force of good and evil.

What is good about religion?

The sense of personal faith, belonging, the sense of a common theology that your fellow believers adhere to, something to rely on, something to give you hope, something to strive for, ways to live your life, another outlet in becoming spiritual (and yes you can be spiritual without religion), and a sort of short term explanation to explain the unexplainable

What is bad about religion?

The misinterpretations, the fears, conforming may not always be a good thing, when people take it too far, when it causes hatred between people, when it tears families apart, when it divides this so called "human race" into thousands of myopic groups and nothing beyond that is seen....

noni wrote:What is good about religion?

The sense of personal faith, belonging, the sense of a common theology that your fellow believers adhere to, something to rely on, something to give you hope, something to strive for, ways to live your life, another outlet in becoming spiritual (and yes you can be spiritual without religion), and a sort of short term explanation to explain the unexplainable

What is bad about religion?

The misinterpretations, the fears, conforming may not always be a good thing, when people take it too far, when it causes hatred between people, when it tears families apart, when it divides this so called "human race" into thousands of myopic groups and nothing beyond that is seen....

sums it up perfectly for me ..

There are lots of harmless but silly religions like Unitarian Universialism, the Society of Friends, certain progressive protestant churchs, most anglicans, progressive Sufi Islam, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Scientology are all pretty much harmless but dumb. Theres no reason to hate them anymore than you should hate Santa Clause/Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy...sure you might think that people who believe in any of that stuff are, uh, a little dumb, not too bright, and might try to persuade them to give it up, but no reason to hate it.

Whats objectionable is religions and religous organizations that people draw authority from to justify their hatred and discrimination and unfair treatment, thats what I object to.

Good posts.

I like the quote that says Religious wars are like fighting over which one's invisible friend is stronger!

Cheers
Shafique

Good posts guys! That's a great quote Shaf