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No it's not a fair point at all! People residing in Australia are required to prove that they can communicate at a certain level in English. All people applying for visas whose first language is not English, must prove that they are proficient in the language.

Your comment is irrelevent, as we are not talking about me, or my arabic skills, as living and working in the UAE people are not required to speak Arabic or prove that they can speak Arabic. But in Australia you 'must' be able to speak and write English to Governmentally accepted level and prove it.

Plus reading the comments he was quoted as saying, his English appears to be very good, which makes what he said even worse, as he knew exactly what he was saying and the meaning of it. Also who's to say that he didn't give the surmon in Arabic and what he said has been translated into English?

I'm appalled that you would try and defend someone who would see women abused and them blame the women for the actions of men, because of the way they're dressed. And I'm especially appalled seeing as you are a woman yourself!

John Howard is very specific over how people coming and residing in Australia should indegrate into the Aussie way of life, basically it's the Aussie way or get out! Many locals here are allowed to say that to people coming to the UAE, so why should another country not have the same policy?

The guy has got to go - end of! Anyone who would deliberately incite attacks on women or any group of people for that matter, has no business to say such things.

On the other hand you'd be up in arms if a Priest said all muslim women are open to attacks and accusations of being terrorists because of wearing an abaya or hijab!

Chocoholic wrote:John Howard is very specific over how people coming and residing in Australia should indegrate into the Aussie way of life, basically it's the Aussie way or get out! Many locals here are allowed to say that to people coming to the UAE, so why should another country not have the same policy?

The guy has got to go - end of! Anyone who would deliberately incite attacks on women or any group of people for that matter, has no business to say such things.

On the other hand you'd be up in arms if a Priest said all muslim women are open to attacks and accusations of being terrorists because of wearing an abaya or hijab!

Chocs - where did he incite attacks?

Chocoholic wrote:Shaf,

A few points regarding your reply to my post.

First off if the guy can hardly speak English, then what is he doing residing in Australia in the first place? Aren't all immigrants expected to show proficiency in the English language? Yes they are.

Secondly he described women who do not wear head scarves as 'uncovered meat, inviting attack'. Sorry but to me this is awful, he basically was saying that if a women wearing suggestive clothes gets attacked or raped then it's her own fault.

He should be thrwon out, end of.

Have you heard what Boris Johnson has said on so many occasions in the UK?

What about all the Gaffes made by Prince Phillip?

I reckon we should kick Prince Phillip back to Greece - what do you think?



I'm sorry, but did you read somewhere that he said it was ok to attack women scantily dressed? Is he not allowed to have the opinion that women should dress modestly and that this has beneficial effects?

If you throw him out, you'll have to throw out all the juries that have blamed the women in rape cases and found in favour of the alleged rapists..(a large majority of them will have thought the lady in question was not raped, but that intercourse had taken place).

This has more than a whiff of islamophobia methinks.

Cheers,
Shafique

A huge percentage of rapes are date rapes and it happens when both parties are drunk. The Nordic countries have a huge drinking culture. It is not disrespect that causes these rapes, it is miscommunication because neither person has enough control over their faculties. The Japanese don't drink as much as the Nordics do. Japan may not have a lot of nudity, but they have lots of skimpy clothes a very free s.e.x.ual culture there. Urban school girls can often take on older "boyfriends" in order to get money from them to buy the latest clothes and trendy gadgets. Maybe the men are more easily able to pay for s.e.x and don't feel the need to rape? The reporting rate of rapes in different countries varies and it is very difficult to get accurate figures - this is very important to remember. In some countries the rapes can be severly under-reported. There is much more to what causes rape to happen than what the woman is wearing.

kanelli wrote: Maybe the men are more easily able to pay for s.e.x and don't feel the need to rape?

Kanelli....rape isnt for s e xual fullfilment or pleasure....its for dominance, power, and sense of control.

The cleric didn't incite attacks. He just gave the men a good mental justification for if they do decide to rape a woman who was not covering up. He also lets the women know that they should keep their mouths shut and don't complain if they are raped because it was their fault for not covering up.

kanelli wrote:The cleric didn't incite attacks. He just gave the men a good mental justification for if they do decide to rape a woman who was not covering up. He also lets the women know that they should keep their mouths shut and don't complain if they are raped because it was their fault for not covering up.

doesnt that also mean he is saying its ok then to rape them?

bushra21 wrote:

kanelli wrote: Maybe the men are more easily able to pay for s.e.x and don't feel the need to rape?

Kanelli....rape isnt for s e xual fullfilment or pleasure....its for dominance, power, and sense of control.

That is true for the most part, but in so many cases of rape it happens because the two people were drunk and fooling around and the guy goes too far. Some date rapes are definitely about power, and marital rape and rape committed by strangers who suddenly attack a woman in her home or in a public place are also definitely about power and violence, not necessarily s.e.x.ual gratification.

Very interesting to think that women are asked to cover up to protect themselves from dangerous men, meanwhile rape is often about power and violence. It could very well be that covered women are as susceptible to rape as uncovered women if you take out the factors of alcohol and being in the situation of making out with a guy.

kanelli wrote:The cleric didn't incite attacks. He just gave the men a good mental justification for if they do decide to rape a woman who was not covering up. He also lets the women know that they should keep their mouths shut and don't complain if they are raped because it was their fault for not covering up.

So the cleric was giving muslim men a reason to rape?

The cleric was telling rape victims not to complain?

ok - I must have missed that bit of the report. I was labouring under the misaprehension that he was preaching to muslims and telling muslim women how to dress and behave (and note I think he went too far).

Thanks for clarifying that he was giving muslim men 'a good mental justification' for rape.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:That is true for the most part, but in so many cases of rape it happens because the two people were drunk and fooling around and the guy goes too far. Some date rapes are definitely about power, and marital rape and rape committed by strangers who suddenly attack a woman in her home or in a public place are also definitely about power and violence, not necessarily s.e.x.ual gratification.

Very interesting to think that women are asked to cover up to protect themselves from dangerous men, meanwhile rape is often about power and violence. It could very well be that covered women are as susceptible to rape as uncovered women if you take out the factors of alcohol and being in the situation of making out with a guy.

Muslim men and women are told to dress modestly and to avoid situations where the approaches to fornication (let alone the act) may occur.

I really had to do a double take when reading the posts above - could it be that someone was condoning the rape figures and explaining them as a (welcome?) side-effect of female liberation?

Wow.

rape is rape, isn't it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, This is what he said:

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he said. "The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

kanelli wrote:A huge percentage of rapes are date rapes and it happens when both parties are drunk. The Nordic countries have a huge drinking culture. It is not disrespect that causes these rapes, it is miscommunication because neither person has enough control over their faculties. The Japanese don't drink as much as the Nordics do. Japan may not have a lot of nudity, but they have lots of skimpy clothes a very free s.e.x.ual culture there. Urban school girls can often take on older "boyfriends" in order to get money from them to buy the latest clothes and trendy gadgets. Maybe the men are more easily able to pay for s.e.x and don't feel the need to rape? The reporting rate of rapes in different countries varies and it is very difficult to get accurate figures - this is very important to remember. In some countries the rapes can be severly under-reported. There is much more to what causes rape to happen than what the woman is wearing.

Japanese don't drink as much as the Nordic countries? Would you care to substantiate this - perhaps showing beer/alcohol consumption per head (you may be right, but I don't want to be seen as kanelli bashing by looking up stats to challenge your statements ). My understanding of Japan is that it is a binge drinking culture with large amounts of alcohol consumed per head - I would be surprised if they consumption was not to the same level as nordic countries.

The rape levels were approximately 1 tenth of those in the nordic countries.


Your above statement also begs the question : what happened to your point that in Finland the men had a 'holistic' view of women and respected them more? Did you forget to add 'when they are sober'?

I've never used the arguement for the social ill of alcohol that it causes 'a huge percentage of rapes' - so thank you for pointing this nugget of information out... at least we can agree that practicing muslim women do not figure in this 'huge percentage'.

Cheers,
Shafique

sorry, I couldn't resist a search.

The WHO have country stats of alcohol consumption from the 1960s to 2001 at :

http://www3.who.int/whosis/alcohol/alco ... ge=english

In 2001,

Finland consumed 10.43 litres per head, to Japan's 7.38 litres. Norway consumed less at 5.81 litres.

So Japan is lower than Finland, but higher than Norway. USA 8.4L.

Begs the question then, why is Japan's rape rate so much lower?

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:No it's not a fair point at all! People residing in Australia are required to prove that they can communicate at a certain level in English. All people applying for visas whose first language is not English, must prove that they are proficient in the language.

It was a fair point, as you didnt provide the context and i interpreted it the same way as Freza did.

In addition to that, There is also a citizenship test in Britain now, people may pass the exam after some heavy revision, but it doesnt mean they know anything else! or that they will always remember it.

kanelli wrote:The cleric didn't incite attacks. He just gave the men a good mental justification for if they do decide to rape a woman who was not covering up. He also lets the women know that they should keep their mouths shut and don't complain if they are raped because it was their fault for not covering up.

Forgive me if im mistaken, but from my reading of the statement i got the impression his comments were more encouraging modest dressing.

Where did the encouragement of rape come from?

What he should have said was, Women to be more carefull, if that means more modest dressing, then so be it and men to take full responsibilities for their actions. He should have also commented on the condemnation of rape in Islam and this would have been settled.

Once again, i believe there are many who require speech therapists. Him on of them.

Regardless, his comments were still offensive and incitful, if you condone that, then sorry to say there's something very wrong with you.

Chocoholic wrote:Regardless, his comments were still offensive and incitful, if you condone that, then sorry to say there's something very wrong with you.

So now you are accusing ME of condoning Rape, in any form?
Have you read ANY of my posts? ever?

I didn't say that. I just couldn't understand why you sidetracked the discussion, who cares if the guy can speak English/Arabic whatever, the point is he made awful comments and they should be condemed, whatever.

I have read your posts and totally agree with you where you stated that countries should have Islamic representatives that are in touch with the local way of life and the changing societies.

Chocoholic wrote:Regardless, his comments were still offensive and incitful, if you condone that, then sorry to say there's something very wrong with you.

The comments were offensive yes.

But how were they inciting anyone to violence/rape? Are you saying that his congregation heard him whilst fasting and thought - wow, that gives me the green light to rape???

Please, pull the other one it has bells on.

It's all good and well condemning the guy for what he said - but why accuse a man of inciting rape when, as far as I can tell, no one else is accusing him of this crime. Incitement to violence is a crime in Australia too. If you have any evidence, let's hear it and pass it on to the authorities.

If you don't have any evidence... doesn't that reflect badly on the accuser? Or is ok now to accuse a Muslim cleric of inciting rape without evidence?

strewth.

Cheers,
Shafique

They have been accusing him of that! Did you not read the direct quote I posted earlier from what he said? Go back and read it again and tell me how this is not giving the grren light as you put it, to give men an excuse to harrass or assault women.

Chocoholic wrote:They have been accusing him of that! Did you not read the direct quote I posted earlier from what he said? Go back and read it again and tell me how this is not giving the grren light as you put it, to give men an excuse to harrass or assault women.

Green light to whom Chocs? Do you really think the congregation took it as such? Do you think non-Muslim potential rapists are going to listen and obey the sermon?

Has he been charged with inciting violence and rape?

I agree with RVP-s statement above about what the guy was trying to say but got it awefully wrong. No where in what you and others quoted is there anything saying that it was ok for men to rape.

A long way back, I condemned the guy in the second post in this thread. I still do - he needs to choose his words correctly. I have no reason not to believe his apology and the clarifications from the mosque spokesman
Cheers,
Shafique

The apology:

In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.

"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.

"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."

A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.

The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said.

Yes I have read the apology, and if it is heart felt and genuine, then fine. However he should have known better, than to say such things in the first place.

Did the Pope's words and sermon also get taken wrongly and out of context? I think they did!

Chocoholic wrote:Yes I have read the apology, and if it is heart felt and genuine, then fine. However he should have known better, than to say such things in the first place.

Did the Pope's words and sermon also get taken wrongly and out of context? I think they did!

Excellent - we agree then.

I accepted the Pope's apology - and he too should have known better.

Which reminds me, someone said on the 17th Sept that the aftermath of the Pope's message would lead to reactions comparable to Israel's reaction to Lebanon. I said we'd re-visit the situation in a months time - I'm glad to see that I was right and that there haven't been the mass killings we saw in Lebanon - or any violence after the initial protests and that nun being killed in Africa (they caught the suspects a few days later, but we haven't heard whether the cause of the murder was the Pope's speech - interesting that.... worth another search). sorry for the digression.

What the cleric said was wrong, he apologised and blamed his lack of fluency in English and maintained he was quoted out of context.

Similarly the Pope has apologised.

Cheers,
Shafique

Going on a slight tangent, but maybe religious leaders should leanr a little something from the music industry. Rapper Eminem is well known for talking about shooting people, inciting violence and being homophobic, but he says, 'I might rap about killing people, but it doesn't mean I'd actually do it!'.

shafique wrote:"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.

That's a non-apology, actually. He's sorry people were offended, not that he made these comments.

Ironically similar to the pope's non-apology over his controversial comments about Islam.

It's positive, certainly, that many people, including many Muslims, are outraged over this sheikh's comments. A number of Muslim groups and individuals have called for his resignation.

And nothing was misconstrued about these statements. That's a standard dodge this guy uses repeatedly.

Chocoholic wrote:I didn't say that. I just couldn't understand why you sidetracked the discussion, who cares if the guy can speak English/Arabic whatever,

Hmm... i only agreed with a comment by Freza, which was about, what appreared to be an odd comment regarding language fluency.

you then cleared this up, so matter was over far as i was concerned.

regarding any incitement.... i think it would be great if someone could gets his views also on rape (his islamic interpretation)...i will also look for it.

Maybe theN it would make sense to debate this further and in more depth.

shafique wrote:The US has the highest rate (per 100,000), and Japan the lowest. Turkey is near the bottom, whilst Norway, Sweden are near the top.

You can research this for yourself, but most rape cases are reportedly being committed by 'foreignors' from Muslim countries.

Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local ... 190268.ece

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that cases of rape in Muslim countries is lower then the west simply because women are in a climate of fear to report their rape.

Law punishes victims of rape in Pakistan

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. The frequency of rape is thought to be much higher but many rapes remain unreported due to a combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization by the police. Meanwhile, Pakistani law is punishing victims of rape as though they were criminals while the perpetrators go free.
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2004/Pakistan

Chocoholic wrote:Going on a slight tangent, but maybe religious leaders should leanr a little something from the music industry. Rapper Eminem is well known for talking about shooting people, inciting violence and being homophobic, but he says, 'I might rap about killing people, but it doesn't mean I'd actually do it!'.

I disagree - I am of the opinion that Religious leaders (and leaders in general) should mean what they say and practice what they preach (call me a rebel, if you wish )

Cheers,
Shafique