Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

...

bump

????

Coalition troops means what? the Western Terrorist Alliance which went in for looting and stealing and bombing an entire nation back to stone age.

The Western Terroist Alliance mastreminded by the evil nation of US and UK. The rest simply joined in for contracts including India...

Sadam killed 3000 kurds with chemicl weapons and american killed milllion from green agent gas and mastard gas in vietnam inclusing children and women.

US and UK murdered more than 1.5 million children and exterminated a tens of thousands of families for OIL 'Operation Iraqi Libaration'

The coalition troops and their killing fields alla round the world, every century a new massacre, No wonder Hitler came to power...

viewsoniczee wrote:Sadam killed 3000 kurds with chemicl weapons and american killed milllion from green agent gas and mastard gas in vietnam inclusing children and women.

Really, got any sources for that?

Here, I'll look it up for you.

'Among the occupants of these graves are 100,000 Kurdish men and boys machine-gunned to death during the 1988 Anfal genocide
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/07/18/iraq12965.htm

You also have no clue what you're talking about. Muslims have committed atrocities that parallel the west.

In Sudan:

Two civil wars have taken place in this country, and a massacre, under government patronage, has been taking place in recent years in the district of Darfur. The first civil war spanned the years of 1955-1972. Moderate estimates talk of 500,000 victims. In 1983 the second civil war began. But it wasn’t a civil war but a systematic massacre suitably defined as ‘genocide’. The goals were Islamization, Arabization and mass deportation, that occasionally becomes slaughter, also for the need to gain control over giant oil fields. We are talking about an estimated 1.9 million victims.

Recent years have been all about Darfur. Again Muslims (Arabs) are murdering (black) Muslims and heathens, and the numbers are unclear. Moderate estimates are talking about 200,000 victims, higher estimates say 600,000. No one knows for sure. And the slaughter continues.

Bangladesh: This country aspired to gain independence from Pakistan. Pakistan reacted with a military invasion that caused mass destruction. It was not a war, it was a massacre. One to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. Some researchers define the events of that year in Bangladesh as one of the three greatest genocides in (history - IJ) (after the Holocaust and the Ruanda genocide).

In Bangledash (inflicted by the terrorist state of Pakistan):

Bangladesh: This country aspired to gain independence from Pakistan. Pakistan reacted with a military invasion that caused mass destruction. It was not a war, it was a massacre. One to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. Some researchers define the events of that year in Bangladesh as one of the three greatest genocides in (history - IJ) (after the Holocaust and the Ruanda genocide).

[b]An inquiry committee appointed by the government of Bangladesh counted 1.247 million fatalities as a result of systematic murder of civilians by Pakistan’s army forces. There are also numerous reports of ‘Death squads’, in which “Muslim soldiers were sent to execute mass killings of Muslim farmers”.[b/]

The Pakistani army ceased only after the intervention of India, which suffered from waves of refugees - millions – arriving from Bangladesh. At least 150 thousand more were murdered in acts of retaliation after the retreat of the Pakistan army.



http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html


I could continue if you like, but it would be superfluous.

valkyrie wrote:

viewsoniczee wrote:Sadam killed 3000 kurds with chemicl weapons and american killed milllion from green agent gas and mastard gas in vietnam inclusing children and women.

Really, got any sources for that?

Here, I'll look it up for you.

'Among the occupants of these graves are 100,000 Kurdish men and boys machine-gunned to death during the 1988 Anfal genocide
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/07/18/iraq12965.htm

You also have no clue what you're talking about. Muslims have committed atrocities that parallel the west.

In Sudan:

Two civil wars have taken place in this country, and a massacre, under government patronage, has been taking place in recent years in the district of Darfur. The first civil war spanned the years of 1955-1972. Moderate estimates talk of 500,000 victims. In 1983 the second civil war began. But it wasn’t a civil war but a systematic massacre suitably defined as ‘genocide’. The goals were Islamization, Arabization and mass deportation, that occasionally becomes slaughter, also for the need to gain control over giant oil fields. We are talking about an estimated 1.9 million victims.

Recent years have been all about Darfur. Again Muslims (Arabs) are murdering (black) Muslims and heathens, and the numbers are unclear. Moderate estimates are talking about 200,000 victims, higher estimates say 600,000. No one knows for sure. And the slaughter continues.

Bangladesh: This country aspired to gain independence from Pakistan. Pakistan reacted with a military invasion that caused mass destruction. It was not a war, it was a massacre. One to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. Some researchers define the events of that year in Bangladesh as one of the three greatest genocides in (history - IJ) (after the Holocaust and the Ruanda genocide).

In Bangledash (inflicted by the terrorist state of Pakistan):

Bangladesh: This country aspired to gain independence from Pakistan. Pakistan reacted with a military invasion that caused mass destruction. It was not a war, it was a massacre. One to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. Some researchers define the events of that year in Bangladesh as one of the three greatest genocides in (history - IJ) (after the Holocaust and the Ruanda genocide).

[b]An inquiry committee appointed by the government of Bangladesh counted 1.247 million fatalities as a result of systematic murder of civilians by Pakistan’s army forces. There are also numerous reports of ‘Death squads’, in which “Muslim soldiers were sent to execute mass killings of Muslim farmers”.[b/]

The Pakistani army ceased only after the intervention of India, which suffered from waves of refugees - millions – arriving from Bangladesh. At least 150 thousand more were murdered in acts of retaliation after the retreat of the Pakistan army.



http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html


I could continue if you like, but it would be superfluous.

Any war that you quote are not islamic but nationalistic wars in nature and are condemend in Islam the least i can say about the bloody 2 World wars which took as many as 110 million and communist alone after the World War toll 70 million lives...

You obvious dont know the difference between Islam and Nationalism. the Prophet pbuh said any one who calls for tribalism and nationalism is not from amoung us. So go adding the massacres of nationalistic wars, it is of no concern of me...

Mainly if you justify the third world massacres and legalize your Western massacres then you are no different than war mongoring misguided people who have obviuosly sided with satan.

The pakistani and bangladeshi, the sudanese and african tribes are tribal wars in nature not islamic..

The purpose is to condem these massacres, isnt it

The massacres were committed by muslims. In many of them, such as Sudan, the governments evoke Islam to justify their imperialist war mongering. About nationalism, the wars and atrocities committed by the west have been pretty much under the banner of nationalism and not religion. In the 19th century when pseudo-Darwinian Romantic Nationalism began linking country with identity and "nation" became more important than "Christendom".


You highlighted war crimes perpetrated by the west, likewise I returned the favor.

dipshit wrote:
You obvious dont know the difference between Islam and Nationalism.

You don't know the difference between Christianity or nationalism.

same idiot wrote:Mainly if you justify the third world massacres and legalize your Western massacres then you are no different than war mongoring misguided people who have obviuosly sided with satan.

The pakistani and bangladeshi, the sudanese and african tribes are tribal wars in nature not islamic..

Whatever makes you feel better

The massacres were not created by Muslims as you like to wish with your half baked ideas. If they sudan and tribal africans are both muslims then they are fighting for a lost cause, which agiain has nothing to do with religion.

Nationalism was choked down the throats of the Islamic world by the Imerialists, during 300 to 200 years of oppressions and in which the chrisitians tried there best to distort islam and destroy its teachings.

About nationalism, the wars and atrocities committed by the west have been pretty much under the banner of nationalism and not religion. In the 19th century when pseudo-Darwinian Romantic Nationalism began linking country with identity and "nation" became more important than "Christendom".

Christianism doest have any form of legal backbone to stand on or to run a governement, It lacks the abilitiy to sovle issues of daily disputes thats why secularism overpowered christianism easily and which evolved into darwinism.

You highlighted war crimes perpetrated by the west, likewise I returned the favor.

I dit not highlight the crimes against of the west to win a debate but rather to ask a fundemenatal question that when saddam could have been removed in the first gulf war, then why wait and murder 1.5 million children under satanic sanctions.

So according to you is saddam is a criminal then that proves you are a bigger one?

I never heard the Pope condemn it unles it was in his favour to get elected after the first one dies?

You don't know the difference between Christianity or nationalism.

you mean Christianism cause the word "christianity" was never preached by our Beloved Porphet Jesus pbuh the Slave of Allah,and is no where to be found in his so called recorded teachings.

Islama nd nationalism can never co exists but on the other hand christ-ians have benn voting darwinists and extremists jews and chrisitnas in power so they do their dirty work , while the pope can go on his world tour.nad spend billions covering up the sex scandals.

try not to call anyone who has difference of opinion an idiot cause it relects on your upbringing, you christians tend to kill anyone who has differenc of opinion. So what you called me i say "SAME TO YOU"

You still havent condemed the killings happening all around the world but rather fuel more comments with no conclusion. you seem to be filled with anger and hatred if someone does not accept your views.

you are a perfect example of an Islamophobian.

I don't support coalition troops in Iraq at all. In Afghanistan I do. The Taleban should not be allowed to rule Afghanistan again. As a woman, I wish that women in Afghanistan will never again live under the terrible conditions that they suffered under the Taleban. Every woman deserves to go to school, have a profession, and have a way to make her own money. She should also be able to choose what she wears, who she sees, and what she does with her spare time.

kanelli wrote:I don't support coalition troops in Iraq at all. In Afghanistan I do. The Taleban should not be allowed to rule Afghanistan again. As a woman, I wish that women in Afghanistan will never again live under the terrible conditions that they suffered under the Taleban. Every woman deserves to go to school, have a profession, and have a way to make her own money. She should also be able to choose what she wears, who she sees, and what she does with her spare time.

So which option did you vote for?

The poll was for Iraq - so I voted according to the opinion I already stated above. Believe me, I am not one of the morons who voted for the last option - hoping for coalition troops to get their asses kicked by insurgents etc.

kanelli wrote:I don't support coalition troops in Iraq at all. In Afghanistan I do. The Taleban should not be allowed to rule Afghanistan again. As a woman, I wish that women in Afghanistan will never again live under the terrible conditions that they suffered under the Taleban. Every woman deserves to go to school, have a profession, and have a way to make her own money. She should also be able to choose what she wears, who she sees, and what she does with her spare time.

I think you forgot the communist rule i afghanistan, and their treatment of the afghan people. The russian used chemical and biological weapons to exterminate entire villages including women and children. The conditions were worst off then or were they after the russian retreat.

Some poepl wont know the true living conditions of afghanistan unless it came on CNN or Fox News, only after 911? but what about before that? No body knew about the afghan women and never cared when they were raped and served as sex slaves for the rusian troops.

More than 3 million were killed by the communist terrorists

The women were never oppressed by the taliban.

taliban stands for (Students) and Taliban came into existance because of the girl complained that school girls were abducted by the northern alliance (Pro communist at that time) and raped. the students took up arms against the communist regime for the honor of women.

The unfair treatment of women in Afghanistan was much more of a propaganda done by the CIA and fumed by CNN and other propaganda channels.

Girls were sent to schools but was later not recommended cause they were easy targets for the communist supportors to bomb and rape young girls. in order to destroy the unity of the Population by labelling one tribe against other.

UN had offcially acknowledged that under the taliban rule the growth of opium production went to zero. and now it has skyrocketted under the occupational regime.

So i dont see from where you get the women oppression syndrome under taliban rule which offcially got the spot light in the west prior invasion?

I've seen documentaries and numerous news interviews with Afghan women who tell their stories and about their hopes for their future. It comes straight from their mouths that the Taleban were extremely oppressive! Yes or no - were women allowed to go to school, hold any important offices, have careers outside the home, and dress according to what the Quran says? Is it your position that these women were lying about life under the Taleban? Perhaps you are a Muslim male with a strict view of Islam and you would rather side with the Taleban than pay attention to what life was really like for the women?

I don't think much of anyone who thinks the Taleban were good rulers who deserve to take hold again in Afghanistan. Sure, some Afghan males likely miss the stability of a stable government, no matter if that government was terrible. To me that is very short-sighted and they just need to be patient and work together to make Afghanistan a better place for everyone. It takes time to root out the warlords and Taleban, but in the end the people will have a better life, especially the women.

I don't care about Russia, because they are no longer there. I also clearly see that you throw in Russia abusing Afghans in order to deflect the issue, but the fact remains that women are still being beaten and raped in towns over-run by Taleban because they leave their houses without wearing a Burqha. There was a news report about this a week or so ago.

Some men all over the world are raping and torturing women - it doesn't matter what nationality or religion - men can be very cruel to women because they think they are superior and the women are there to be used for their purposes. Something needs to be done about this kind of attitude!

valkyrie wrote:Bangladesh: This country aspired to gain independence from Pakistan. Pakistan reacted with a military invasion that caused mass destruction. It was not a war, it was a massacre. One to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. Some researchers define the events of that year in Bangladesh as one of the three greatest genocides in (history - IJ) (after the Holocaust and the Ruanda genocide).

[b]An inquiry committee appointed by the government of Bangladesh counted 1.247 million fatalities as a result of systematic murder of civilians by Pakistan’s army forces. There are also numerous reports of ‘Death squads’, in which “Muslim soldiers were sent to execute mass killings of Muslim farmers”.[b/]

The Pakistani army ceased only after the intervention of India, which suffered from waves of refugees - millions – arriving from Bangladesh. At least 150 thousand more were murdered in acts of retaliation after the retreat of the Pakistan army.

Ok, first of all before you start to blabber. Get your facts right.
3 million were dead in Bangladesh. HALF of them Hindu. Most of the attacks were against Hindu's and those who had intellect and wouldnt sell out. It was just a barbaric way to kill off a potential leadership. Retarded Pakistani soldiers didnt know the difference most of the times and were trigger happy.

Secondly, Bangladesh did not aspire to become independant. They won the then pakistan elections, FAIRLY. it was after the military dictators/rulers refused to hand over power and peacefull protesters being shot that the peoples believed that the only way for them to continue was independance.

India entered the ground war towards the end, by then the Pakistan army, although killing discriminantly, were in a real quagire as the resistance led my General Usmani were gaining the upper hand. So it was a political move by India which let the resistance wear the army down for it to have an easy capture.

The story of Bangladesh was political CHess between Silly Pakistani military and exploiting (British Raised) Indian goverment. Just Like Kashmir is right now.

Your post was to vilify Muslim butchers, well the Pakistani Army has never had islamic values and to this day still hasnt any Islamic Values. Only one division were devoutely Islamic which faught againts India previously. The were the people of Balochistan and Waziristan.

These people refused to get into the Bangladesh War because they didnt want to kill their fellow muslims and other innocent people.

kanelli wrote:I've seen documentaries and numerous news interviews with Afghan women who tell their stories and about their hopes for their future. It comes straight from their mouths that the Taleban were extremely oppressive! Yes or no - were women allowed to go to school, hold any important offices, have careers outside the home, and dress according to what the Quran says?

I bet those same women are now begging for the Taleiban to return. Do you know why? Becaue the Taleiban made rape, and corruption serious offenses often punishable by death.
In a country where there is no human rights and basic rights, School is the last thing on peoples minds.
Stats prove, that most women raped in Afganistan were pre and post taleiban. Which proves the situation is a bad as it was during the Russian invasion

kanelli wrote: Is it your position that these women were lying about life under the Taleban? Perhaps you are a Muslim male with a strict view of Islam and you would rather side with the Taleban than pay attention to what life was really like for the women?

I am not a muslim, but i can clearly see that the invasion has made a poor country poorer. A lawless country more vulnerable. A Poppy free zone into a drug supplier, and corruption at every level...even in checkpoints where civilians who pass must pay government soldiers. It was things like this which helped the Taleiban rise. And is doing so again.

regarding the women, They were perhaps telling the truth. Where there is no democracy shit can happen. Womens lives are terrible in many parts of the world.
The Taleiban had now been gone for 5 years, gone. Why are the Women STILL wearing Burkhas? It's deeper than the reasons shown on Fox and CNN thats why.

kanelli wrote:I don't think much of anyone who thinks the Taleban were good rulers who deserve to take hold again in Afghanistan. Sure, some Afghan males likely miss the stability of a stable government, no matter if that government was terrible. To me that is very short-sighted and they just need to be patient and work together to make Afghanistan a better place for everyone. It takes time to root out the warlords and Taleban, but in the end the people will have a better life, especially the women.

I say the Taleiban are MUCH BETTER rulers than the current government. Thats not to say the Taleiban were angels. They had serious flaws.

But what has our wonderfull coalition done since they toppled them? They handed them to Druglords, Warlords and Criminals. people who were famous for Human traficking. People who made the Poppy culture in afgahnistan. People who Killed anyone they saw fit. People who snatched women off the streets and sold them prostitution anywhere. They were corrupt, answered to no one.
The Coalition has just handed to country back to those people. Karzai cannot control any of the Warlords because they are in the government!..... you think the country will get better? you clearly do not know what is going on there.

kanelli wrote:I don't care about Russia, because they are no longer there. I also clearly see that you throw in Russia abusing Afghans in order to deflect the issue, but the fact remains that women are still being beaten and raped in towns over-run by Taleban because they leave their houses without wearing a Burqha. There was a news report about this a week or so ago.
!

Please forward a link to this. I am desperate to see this.

I saw it on a TV news report - how do you expect me to link to that? It was BBC I believe. As you said already a few sentences above - some women are still wearing Burkhas, so what does that tell you about the rights of women in Afghanistan? The women don't feel safe because if they don't wear then men can do what they want and justify it by saying the women were being immodest by not covering from head to toe. It is the men who are out of control and the men who are destroying the country.

Do you have any links or evidence of news stories where Afghan women are yearning for the Taleban to come back and curb their rights completely? Please show the evidence where women are itching to be removed from schools, jobs etc.

Could you also please provide links to prove that Afghan women are no longer raped and beaten - that it only happened to them by the Russians and hasn't happened since.

I'll try to dig up links to the titles of the documentaries I have seen. Don't know if I'll find them but will do my best.

The picture that always sticks in my mind is the one of the Afghani woman who'd been shot in the head on the tarmac of an airport for some small thing, that the Taliban forbade women to do. Yeah nice regime

Here are some articles, documentaries etc. that tell about women in Afghanistan. Even if the Taleban are gone, the men still hold many of the same attitudes and opinions about women. The bottom line is that when women can gain more power it will help turn things around. They are in a position to gain more power without the Taleban, at least in the major cities so far. The women in the countryside are not seeing much improvement.

Afghanistan Unveiled - http://www.asiafoundation.org/Locations ... _fund.html

CNN conversation with Saira Shah, Life in Afghanistan under the Taliban - http://edition.cnn.com/2001/COMMUNITY/0 ... index.html

Afghanistan's Women after "Liberation" - http://www.rawa.org/nanji.htm

"If I Stand Up" - http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-U ... N=201.html

Italians Train Afghans for Non-Traditional Jobs - http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm? ... N=61061741

Afghan women start businesses, help reconstruct a torn nation - http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0508/p04s01-wosc.html

kanelli wrote:I saw it on a TV news report - how do you expect me to link to that? It was BBC I believe. As you said already a few sentences above - some women are still wearing Burkhas, so what does that tell you about the rights of women in Afghanistan? The women don't feel safe because if they don't wear then men can do what they want and justify it by saying the women were being immodest by not covering from head to toe. It is the men who are out of control and the men who are destroying the country.

Regarding the Burkhas, Actually it tells me that The country is in a worse situation than the CNNS and FOX;s of the world report. There is so much nonsense in the last 5 years about how the country is progressing. its pure propaganda. Poppy growth is higher than ever, by whom? Government officials. Corruption and Rape is higher than ever, by whom? Drug Lords and Warlords who are part of the government. Therefore all these actions are now state sponsored. You think this country will prosper under these situations?

Secondly.. Yes there has been some progress made in terms of womens education and work... . But where? Kabul. nowhere else. WHY? because the central government dont control the other areas. The Druglord sectioned part of the government does. remember Afghanistan was suposed to be the model nation for democracy...why are the taleiban coming back so strongly? the militia cannot do it without local support. and they have plenty of it.

kanelli wrote:Do you have any links or evidence of news stories where Afghan women are yearning for the Taleban to come back and curb their rights completely? Please show the evidence where women are itching to be removed from schools, jobs etc.

I was merely passing an opinion regarding the women asking for the taleiban back. you are not looking beyond recent historical propaganda filled reports by CNN and Fox.
There were some articles posted by Shafique a while back on the taleiban which highlighted how they came into power, and how the women were thankfull to the taleiban from helping them into many fronts. Not least saving them from the now termed "Northern Alliance" who sold them into slavery and prostitution. That was the truth many many women were thankfull to them. CNN and FOX only filmed those who suffered and supported their agenda. Remember, iraq also had WMD, ? and as per CNN anf FOX, the people were desperate for the americans to enter? now look...sure turned out to be true didnt it?

And what everyone keeps fogettng is that women were not the worst sufferes in afghanistan in the last 20 or so years. Children were. it is sad that peoples historical knowledge only stretches to that of the content provided by certain news channels in the west. no one seems to mention the children, who were sold into slavery in surrounding countries, abused by warlords and were taught to farm poppy, by guess who? Our northern alliance friends..yup the ones the coalition handed over power to, who in turn helped the taleiban grow.

So my position is not that i support the Taleiban, but i am completely against this government which was put in place by the coalition. they were the reason the taleiban gained so much support and are doing so again. So do not think i support the taleiban. i just completely disagree with the ourguments you are putting up which have hallmarks of political agendas presented by news channels.

What afghanistan needs is an alternative government, with no history of destruction in the country. For that the UN needs to get its finger out of its backside, defy the US and implement a formal democracy.
You cannot achieve any aspirations with the Current warlord government or the taleiban.

kanelli wrote:
Could you also please provide links to prove that Afghan women are no longer raped and beaten - that it only happened to them by the Russians and hasn't happened since.

At no point did i say no woman was raped. Ive said countless times the majority of rapes occurred, pre and post taleiban. And yes, i will try to post the links.

Chocoholic wrote:The picture that always sticks in my mind is the one of the Afghani woman who'd been shot in the head on the tarmac of an airport for some small thing, that the Taliban forbade women to do. Yeah nice regime

The pictures which stick to my head are the ones were tanks went over the heads of two dead soldiers in afhganistan and Iraq. both were unarmed had their top halves flattened.

Nice regime the British and US armies are also ?

Lets face it, shit happens in this world. no one is innocent.

[qIt is the men who are out of control and the men who are destroying the country.women in Afghanistan. Even if the Taleban are gone, the men still hold many of the same attitudes and opinions about women. The bottom line is that when women can gain more power

Just Another woman Man Hater

Some articles which reflect on the various aspects ive touched on my previus posts. Not just on women.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/06/afghan11287.htm

Crimes of the newly placed government supported warlords

http://www.amirbutler.com/archives/2001/11/03/17

"Human Rights Watch and other agencies report that, behind the romanticism of the “rag tag army” is a history of bloody and horrific war crimes."

http://www.rawa.org/wom-view.htm

http://www.rawa.org/ai-women.htm#2

http://www.rawa.org/reports.htm

One site which provides details far more deeper than CNN or FOX ever would. It knocks the taleiban and clearly shows/ idetifies the goverment approved warlords as criminals. Read the background of the pre taleiban era.

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn ... nytarticle

poppy ban by the taleiban. once againt braught back by the new government.

--

The future is so bright for afghanistan.....

more to follow later....

Perhaps most important, it is not only the derided “cut and run” domestic critics of the president’s policy who recognize that our continued presence is part of the problem rather than of the solution, but 90 percent of the Iraqi people we are supposedly trying to help, according to recent U.S. government and scholarly public-opinion surveys.

Even more shocking: Six in 10 believe it actually is acceptable to target U.S. troops for assassination. And while President Bush on Monday once again reassured the impotent puppet government in Baghdad that the United States is prepared to “stay the course,” the vast majority of both Shiite and Sunnis want us to leave within the next year.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200 ... ields_iraq

rvp_legend, who do you suggest takes power in Afghanistan? It looks to me like many men in the political arena in Afghanistan are rotten and have been involved with corruption and unsavoury characters in order to achieve their own goals. Who is suitably non-corrupt to take the job and find enough non-corrupt people to flesh out the political ranks?

Life is already getting better for women and children in the larger cities. The countryside is still problematic. If the Taleban comes back, all those gains will be lost.

Women and children have been suffering for a long time, but all the men care about is carving up territory, padding their pockets with reconstruction money and money gained from criminal activities like drugs etc., and beating out rival gangs, or trying to make some kind of strict Islamic utopia that keeps the country in the dark ages. The Taleban had time to show what they could do for the country, and the country was a mess. They were buddies with freaky terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. I'd hardly call that a good record. If I was an Afghan citizen, I'd rather try out some new leadership rather than go back to what I used to know because change is too uncomfortable.

Sorry, multiple post.

Sorry, multiple post.

kanelli wrote:rvp_legend, who do you suggest takes power in Afghanistan? It looks to me like many men in the political arena in Afghanistan are rotten and have been involved with corruption and unsavoury characters in order to achieve their own goals. Who is suitably non-corrupt to take the job and find enough non-corrupt people to flesh out the political ranks?

The UN needs to get its finger out of its backside, because unlike the Iraq situation, it endoresed this invasion. If it wants democracy and stability in that country, it needs to recognice all the many different ethnic lines there and at least make a solid proposal which hears the Loya Jirga and gives a voice to all groups. It automatically isolates the violence loving men, and should it turn nasty Nato should be at hand to then disperse it.
What they are doing now, is trying to MAKE the locals accept a completely unrepresentative government whose officials lack the balls to go outside the capital.
Then there are the surrounding countries. Iran and Pakistan need to tame the Pashtun. Tajikistan, Turkemnistan and Uzbekistan need to tame the Warlords and make it known they will not deal with warlords, as they have always have influence on those ethnic groups/people.
ive said this previously, that no outside party who doesnt have a clue about how the countries culture behaves will ever impose themselves on a foreign country. Especially not when they have Previous ethnic clensing Warlords on their side.

kanelli wrote:Life is already getting better for women and children in the larger cities. The countryside is still problematic. If the Taleban comes back, all those gains will be lost.

Sorry, but i take the complete opposite view of that. Yes some schools have been re opened again in Kabul.... but attendances are at a serious low. Secondly... Kabul is not the most populous part of the country No progress whatsoever has been made elsewhere. of course, CNN and Fox will never tell you that. I have friends who work for the UN in Afghanistan and trust you me.. the reality is quite different!
Nobody said the Taleiban were life saviours... but the Warlords are MUCH worse. They are stopping the progress of the country and the previous Laws created are still in place? why? because the taleiban managed what they couldnt...so why would they get rid of them?

kanelli wrote:Women and children have been suffering for a long time, but all the men care about is carving up territory, padding their pockets with reconstruction money and money gained from criminal activities like drugs etc., and beating out rival gangs, or trying to make some kind of strict Islamic utopia that keeps the country in the dark ages.

Definately agree with the actions of men. But that has happened all throughout history. But the Criminal activities are by the current government, who were in charge before the taleiban. The taleiban banned poppy growth by 91% in a year. they also deemed kidnap as punishable by death. These two have become fashionable again with the current government. Nato is helpless and their "friends" have brought the corruption back
read the below if you dont believe me.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/f ... 069842.stm[/quote]

kanelli wrote: The Taleban had time to show what they could do for the country, and the country was a mess. They were buddies with freaky terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. I'd hardly call that a good record. If I was an Afghan citizen, I'd rather try out some new leadership rather than go back to what I used to know because change is too uncomfortable.

Ok, sorry to say, but you sound like someone who has been seriously misinformed by their domestic media groups. of course wartime propaganda does this.

The Taleiban had a total of 5 years of power of majority Afghanistan - with little help, little aid, and were still part of a civil war at the time of the invasion. and yes, They coudnt improve their country.
the new government has now had 5 years in power, with inernational help, with international recognition, with international AID and Military. They are still part of a civil war, but a much smaller one than the one prior 2001. whats their achievement? few schools in the capitals one or two opportunities for women and thats it! Poppy growth is at an all time high, violence at an all time high... and the government only controls one city...hardly a success story even with all the international assistance.

"Buddies with the freaky groups?" HANG ON A MINUTE! didnt the USA create these B$STARDS!?!?!?! They created them, armed them to the teeth and even supported their activities . Clinton even invited them to the US and toured them around!!!!! how short peoples memories are!
Also, did you not watch Farenheit 9/11? EVERYONE knows that the Bush family and Bin Laden families are almost related due to the number of joint business ventures they have.

So, the US who create the frankenstein, team up with former Criminals and are now the saviour of the people - thats hardly a good record!

If i was an Afghan, i would, and most are doing so in Afghanistan reject this new government due to the fact that they are not change. They are the worse criminals in the countries History. and that is supported by all Human rights watches!

This country needs serious help if it is ever going to improve. And that means a fresh aproach. Militia free.

There are only three things that they respect the lash, yoke and the sword. President Bush (cousin to Ming the merciless & satan-the-redeema) the glorious ruler of all the sand wallas will see that they get all three with vengeance Go George Go and Nuke!

rvp_legend, be careful about accusing me of only paying attention to media propaganda. I could accuse you of the same thing. Some of your arguments are tedious and refuted according to many reports. Did you read any of the links I gave about the women in Afghanistan?

Saying that Al Qaeda was created by the US is illogical and not relevant to this thread. Al Qaeda was created by Osama Bin Laden for many reasons - mainly because he wants to follow his own radical interpretation of Islamic jihad. The Taleban fostering and supporting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden hating the US, but more to do with the Taleban also sharing radical Islamic ideologies and seeking out a partnership with Al Qaeda, even though it did nothing for the betterment of the Afghan population. The Taleban's cooperation with Al Qaeda is what brought on the invasion of their country. Hardly a smart move on their part.

I used to think that getting rid of the Taliban after 9/11 was a good thing.

Slowly I've had to re-visit the underlying 'facts' that led me to that belief, and now after reading into the subject, I have to recognise that the picture I had of the overthrow of the Taliban was not complete and was biased.

I posted a while back an article in the NY Times from early in 2001 when a Taliban Government envoy was touring the US, meeting the government (who were trying to negotiate an oil pipeline, amongst other items) and speaking at various US universities. That article, and others, showed the true circumstances surrounding the destruction of the ancient Buddha statue.

Over Ramadan I read Noam Chomsky's 'Hegemony or Survival'. This cemented the change of mind.

After 9/11 the Taliban were willing to negotiate handing over Osama Bin Laden - but the US were bent on regime change.

Chomsky points out that Afghanistan's 'crime' was the harbouring of terrorists who plotted and enacted terrorist acts in other countries. The punishment was the mass bombing and mass killings of Afghan soliders, civil insititutions and civilians.

Chomsky points out that this 'crime' is one that the US is committing - and not just of one or two, but of many terrorists wanted for crimes against other nations. The most notorious is a Haitian who was responsible for killing tens of thousands in terrorist acts in Haiti, who has been tried in absentia, but who the US refuses to extradite.

Chomsky asks whether Haiti would therefore be justified in bombing Washington?

Why not?

The list of terrorist activities carried out, sponsored or supported by the US was an eye-opener to me. I had forgotten that millions had died in Indo-China, tens (if not hundreds) of thousands killed in Latin America, Phillipines etc - all in acts which if were committed by others would have been branded as 'terrorism'.

The problem is that it takes effort sometimes to uncover the truths that aren't widely published - it is very easy to lazily accept propaganda/bias without being aware that we are not being told the whole truth.

Not only is the effort seldom exercised, but we often see strong resistance to the evidence when presented - perhaps because no one likes to admit they were fooled. I certainly was in terms of the information I had of the Taliban.

Cheers,
Shafique