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No RVP, you assumed incorrectly and still don't see it. I have stated clearly in other threads that I did not support the invasion of Iraq at all, and implied none of what you said in my previous post. And you do many Europeans and North Americans a disservice by saying they aren't aware of the injustices faced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, and Afghanistan. There are many Europeans and North Americans fighting to get things changed with their governments' foreign policies as well as sending aid and volunteering their own time to Arab/Muslim causes.

kanelli wrote:No RVP, you assumed incorrectly and still don't see it. I have stated clearly in other threads that I did not support the invasion of Iraq at all, and implied none of what you said in my previous post. And you do many Europeans and North Americans a disservice by saying they aren't aware of the injustices faced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, and Afghanistan. There are many Europeans and North Americans fighting to get things changed with their governments' foreign policies as well as sending aid and volunteering their own time to Arab/Muslim causes.

If you read back, i said "Many" Not all, not majority.
and yes, you are right ther are many who are fighting their cause.

look what i found from you :

kanelli wrote:"If the Taliban is becoming popular, then everyone should pull out. Let the people live under the Taliban again. I'm sure the women especially like the idea of staying at home in their Burkhas, and the little girls can stop going to school. Also, the Taliban can continue to destroy cultural artifacts, and ban art, music, dance etc. The Afghan civilisation will flourish under that kind of regime. Good luck to them!
"

kanelli wrote:"I really am surprised that Afghanistan and Iraq can't get their crap together. They have the ability to make the occupation obsolete, but the countries wallow in corruption and in-fighting. That can't all be blamed on the coalition. It drives me nuts! "

http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10373

and :

kanelli wrote:"Maybe they should let Saddam loose and set him back up to rule again. If the Iraqi's don't like the coalition helping and they can't co-operate amongst themselves to put their country right, maybe they deserve to have Saddam Hussein back. So far he seems to be the only person who was able to control the infighting Iraqis. So sad."

All the comments were in complete disregard of root causes.

i rest my case.

No, you are changing your tune. You claimed that I implied that the coaltion should have invaded Iraq. I said no such thing and you have not provided any evidence of that. Now you are suddenly shifting focus to say that I don't acknowledge the root causes. Anyone who has read any of my posts in this forum can tell you that I have discussed many root causes at length.

Thanks for pulling out some of my more sarcastic posts - and taking them out of their context to prove your non-point.

What I am saying is that what is done is done and I am sick of hearing Arabs/Muslims making excuses about the sectarian violence that is going on in Iraq. Sunnis and Shiias are purposely killing each other over political and religious dominance in Iraq. The US and coalition are not putting the guns in their hands and squeezing their fingers on the triggers - it their own doing. The only thing the invasion of Iraq has done is destabilise the country by ousting Saddam who kept a bloody and barbaric control over all the separate groups. If people are whining that it was better under Saddam - then maybe the coalition shoud put Saddam back in charge and pull out. I doubt even Saddam can put a lid on all the fighting there anymore. Don't you agree?

kanelli wrote:No, you are changing your tune. You claimed that I implied that the coaltion should have invaded Iraq. I said no such thing and you have not provided any evidence of that. Now you are suddenly shifting focus to say that I don't acknowledge the root causes. Anyone who has read any of my posts in this forum can tell you that I have discussed many root causes at length.

Please can you present, where i accused you of supporting the Invasion of Iraq. I did however mention you like many, seem to ignore the root causes in your questioning. That was the theme of my posts.

kanelli wrote:Thanks for pulling out some of my more sarcastic posts - and taking them out of their context to prove your non-point.

I took a quote for what it was. If it was sarcasm, i will accept that. But the only reason i used it was due to the consistency of tone.

kanelli wrote:What I am saying is that what is done is done and I am sick of hearing Arabs/Muslims making excuses about the sectarian violence that is going on in Iraq. Sunnis and Shiias are purposely killing each other over political and religious dominance in Iraq. The US and coalition are not putting the guns in their hands and squeezing their fingers on the triggers - it their own doing. The only thing the invasion of Iraq has done is destabilise the country by ousting Saddam who kept a bloody and barbaric control over all the separate groups. If people are whining that it was better under Saddam - then maybe the coalition shoud put Saddam back in charge and pull out. I doubt even Saddam can put a lid on all the fighting there anymore. Don't you agree?

The country has been in civil war for 2 years. The media may ignore it but sectarian violence proves it.
You may be sick of hearing about the Sectarian violence, but im sure the people who are having to experience it are much worse off. When you have such a diverse country and no security - ther will always be opportunists who start a power struggle, History has proven that. The US and coalition must take the blame for being so gungo ho into war without any plans on the aftermath.
Saddam was a terrible dictator, but was most barbaric when in favour with the west. In recent years he was far more controlled. Saddam or any dictator will not be be able to bring cntrol without further bloodshed, so if it goes back to a Dictator, it is another failure of the coalition.

It is hard to see any form of settlement without the partitioning of the country now. Although where is the International Criminal court now?

Clearly I am aware that Iraq and Afghanistan have been destabilised when their rulers were removed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people are clued into that fact... Do you want to keep lecturing us on the "root causes"?

The coalition has invaded, and they did have plans. Just because things haven't gone according to plan doesn't mean there weren't plans, or aren't new plans.

What do you suggest happens now to remedy the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan? Rememer, your solution should be one that will be accepted by the Arab/Muslim world and the people living in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm very keen to hear your solutions.

kanelli wrote:Clearly I am aware that Iraq and Afghanistan have been destabilised when their rulers were removed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people are clued into that fact... Do you want to keep lecturing us on the "root causes"?

most people are not clued up about root causes. They are too often ignored in debates. People/Media only seem to concentrate on recent history, which often shapes our opinions..such as the suicide bomb which goes off in the market, how barbaric it was (yes it is barbaric) but always ignoring why the situation has reached this point.

kanelli wrote:The coalition has invaded, and they did have plans. Just because things haven't gone according to plan doesn't mean there weren't plans.

I disagree,
remember, they assumed they would be greeted with flowers - but got bullets. They spend more time planning the gung ho invasaion than the aftermath.

kanelli wrote:What do you suggest happens now to remedy the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan? Rememer, your solution should be one that will be accepted by the Arab/Muslim world and the people living in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm very keen to hear your solutions.

Accountability is the main issue. If the hawks were held accountable for what they did - it would go down very well, so history couldnt repeat itself. but a US govt official to be tried in the ICC? i dont think that will ever happen.

What most people would want is an end to the occupation. People would then choose their destiny. It they choose constant civil war then that is their sole decision.
Maybe a UN led effort with the Arab league to help tame the violence in Iraq?
The Sunni countries, to assist the Sunnis'. Iran to influence the Shia.
Then to hold proper elections with International observers, with all ehtnic groups represented.

Saddam to have a proper trial, not the current joke with guest Judges.

I believe the Arab league without the US involvement will be far more willing to assist.

The US to compensate for the ruined infrastructure. They caused this mess.

But as i mentioned previously.... it has reached at such a point, that a partitioning may be the only solution.

Do you really think that Arab League can help tame the chaos? What kind of infrastructure do they have to get on the ground and running with a plan? Also, isn't Iran already involved with the Shiias at the moment, and haven't they always been? If the coalition leaves and then there is mass genocide of one religious sect or another, or one ethnic group or another - won't they be blamed for leaving?

kanelli wrote:Do you really think that Arab League can help tame the chaos? What kind of infrastructure do they have to get on the ground and running with a plan? Also, isn't Iran already involved with the Shiias at the moment, and haven't they always been? If the coalition leaves and then there is mass genocide of one religious sect or another, or one ethnic group or another - won't they be blamed for leaving?

Yes i do think the Arab league can make a difference. It is in their interests and if they took the lead i believe they will look for a solution. Just like they have all throughout history. Remember, there has been skirmishes in the past but they were always resolved.
Iran will only really make an effort once the US is not there. Iran probably takes great pleasure in seeing the US get it so wrong. All parties would do more if they took leads, which would have to exclude the US.

There is already a road to Genocide. the US have caused it they cant fix it. Hence i said, accountability would go down very well.

Should they stay or go?
Why not introduce the first REAL democratic process in Iraq - A vote with international supervision of whether they should stay or go.

Interesting suggestions RVP, I have no clue what would work or not. The situation looks pretty dire in Iraq at least. There is hope for Afghanistan if the warlords can have the power cut out from underneath them. They need real government action and unity of the people as well. Unfortunately, when a country is destabilised some parts of the population try to profit from the situation economically and politically.

kanelli wrote:Interesting suggestions RVP, I have no clue what would work or not. The situation looks pretty dire in Iraq at least. There is hope for Afghanistan if the warlords can have the power cut out from underneath them. They need real government action and unity of the people as well. Unfortunately, when a country is destabilised some parts of the population try to profit from the situation economically and politically.

Unfortunately the warlords are part of the current government. They are also a country with ethnic diversity. Its difficult to find a solution with Afghanistan more than Iraq i feel. On one hand you will find Pakistan pushing their interests, then there is Iran, Russia etc all finding it strategically placed near the Caspian sea....who knows where it ends

valkyrie wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Once again Val, there you go banging on about the Jewish and Israel thing, which is irrelevant to the discussion!

If the coalition pulled out of Iraq, then the Shiites and Sunnis would just start killing each other, nothing would change, civil war would take over.

Your obdurate stupidity boggles my mind. Once again you have no clue, read my post and then click on the link

And?! It still has very little basis. I bet you've never even met a Freemason.