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Yes BM - IF 90% of the Afghanistani men are beating their wives then 90% of Afghani men are not obeying the Quran. To think otherwise will be as silly as arguing Catholicism says it is ok for priests to touch up young boys - and no one is silly enough to say that are they!

I must have missed the Catholic teaching saying it's "ok" to molest children.

If there were, and as long as it takes the same "steps" as the Koran, I'm sure you would claim it would not promote but actually discourage molestation. Sure.

(Of course you wouldn't, but you're not very bright and therefore don't hang on to your logic very long)

Koran 4:34 - Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

Catechism - Priests are the managers of the affairs of children for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous children are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and touch them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

shafique wrote:But the salient point is that the verse shows that molestation is not allowed in Catholicism. The only time touching is ever allowed is if a series of escalating punishments are meted out by the priest, and within a context of a judicial system that allows the children to appeal and even ultimately change congregation.

The crimes that merit punishment are what eh is asking about in this thread - and nucleus above has addressed this. eh - you can also look up what commentators and experts say on this too.

To my knowledge though - I know of no Catholic priest who has applied the first two levels of punishment and then proceeded on the last level. Nucleus, do you know of anyone??

Btw, what is this "judicial system" that wives can appeal? I'm assuming you made the claim up. Your answer to domestic abuse is that wives can divorce their husbands. That's apparently the only mechanism in Islamic law you can think of to "protect" abused wives.

Also, do wives get half the property of men in Islamic law after a divorce or do they get something like 1/3 as the Koran gives to female relatives of a deceased relative?

Eh - you seem to be suffering from yet another epic failure in comprehension.

shafique wrote:Yes BM - IF 90% of the Afghanistani men are beating their wives then 90% of Afghani men are not obeying the Quran. To think otherwise will be as silly as arguing Catholicism says it is ok for priests to touch up young boys - and no one is silly enough to say that are they!

Given no one is this silly, you are therefore looking extremely silly and desperate when you misinterpret the above to mean 'shafique is trying to blame Catholicism for misdeeds of priests'. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Silly billy. Read more carefully next time!

I see that you are also still waffling on and presenting your Islamophobic-blogger-only theories as facts.

If you ever find one real-life example of a Muslim man following the principles laid out by God in the Quran, let me know.

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm completely baffled by your response.

My previous post was pretty clear.

I'm curious how many brain cells are still functioning in that head of yours.

My point was to show how weak your argument was by changing "beat" to "molest/touch", "wife" to "children" and "husband" to "priest".

Now, if there actually was a teaching in Catholicism that gave priests a green light to molest children (there isn't, that's why it's a false analogy) then you would see why your above post claiming wife beating not being allowed in Islam would look absurd if someone were to take your post, re-write it, and claim molestation is not allowed in Catholicism - again, under the pretend scenario where priests are allowed to molest children.

I have a feeling you STILL don't get it.

Very simple, IF Catholic teachings allowed priests to molest children after certain steps by the priests (analogous to Muslim husbands) were first taken anyone with common sense would still rightly conclude that molestation IS allowed in Catholicism. Absolutely NO one would claim that Catholicism prohibits molestation if priests ARE allowed to molest children, regardless of whatever limp wristed arguments you want to pull out:

shafique wrote:But the salient point is that the verse shows that molestation is not allowed in Catholicism. The only time touching is ever allowed is if a series of escalating punishments are meted out by the priest, and within a context of a judicial system that allows the children to appeal and even ultimately change congregation.

The crimes that merit punishment are what eh is asking about in this thread - and nucleus above has addressed this. eh - you can also look up what commentators and experts say on this too.

To my knowledge though - I know of no Catholic priest who has applied the first two levels of punishment and then proceeded on the last level. Nucleus, do you know of anyone??

Why are you confused? Just read the part I highlighted again.

Anyone claiming Catholic priests touching up boys are following Christian teachings are as silly as your blogger friends and your silly theory about Islam and wife beating. (And your similarly failed theory about Islam and honour crimes - one where you boasted you'd e-mail an expert and have so far failed to follow through).

It's not that complicated.

You're post is just making my point for me admirably. Thank you.

It certainly isn't distracting anyone away from the fact that you've so far failed to produce one Muslim who has followed the stages set out by God in the Quran - and that the one case you claimed existed turned out to be a wilful lie on your part.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Anyone claiming Catholic priests touching up boys are following Christian teachings are as silly

Huh? Did you not understand my past two posts?

Seriously?

Are you that brain-dead?

Seriously?

event horizon wrote:I have a feeling you STILL don't get it.

Yeah, I was right.

Brain-dead confirmed.

I did understand - and I won't repeat myself about your silliness.

I will, however, ask you once again to let us know if you ever find one Muslim man applying this verse as laid out in the Quran - should you do so, then we can check whether you blogger-theory actually has any basis in reality. Your one attempt proved to be a lie.

Cheers,
Shafique

Your one attempt proved to be a lie.

Where did you prove it to be a lie?

Oh, btw, if Catholic priests are allowed to molest children based on Catholic teachings, does Catholicism then condone molestation?

That's a real head scratcher. What do you think?

I proved you lied when I asked you to confirm whether your lie was simply a mistake from not reading the article, or an intentional lie. You replied you had read the article. (It was on the previous page of this thread - you really must look into your failing memory eh - really!)

Your statement was not true, and not a mistake. Therefore you told a deliberate lie.
philosophy-dubai/what-rebellious-wife-t48589-75.html#p397316

Now - are you going to continue to ask silly and obvious questions, or are you going to at least try and find one real life incident to back up your blogger-only theory?

cheers,

Shafique

So you didn't prove that the imam who was citing the Koran did not correctly follow the Koran when he beat his wife?

Excellent.

It's your opinion vs reality.

event horizon wrote:The article said he was following the Koran.

It doesn't. You lied.

(And also, you're in danger of converting a vain boast that you'd e-mail an expert on honour crimes into yet another lie. Or have you actually followed through and emailed her yet?)

But regardless of these facts - let's now see whether you or your blogger friends can find ONE (real, not imaginary) example of a Muslim man following the Quranic instructions in this verse. From your denials, I guess so far you've failed miserably.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you didn't prove that the imam who was citing the Koran did not correctly follow the Koran when he beat his wife?

Excellent.

It's your opinion vs reality.

I proved you told a big fat lie when you claimed the article agreed with your fantasy - it didn't.

Squirming is so undignified eh.

Anyway, let's see if you can ever find one real example to hang your argument on. Have asked Memri yet to manufacture a video for you?

Cheer,
Shafique

I proved you told a big fat lie when you claimed the article agreed with your fantasy - it didn't.

Thank you for admitting you lied when you claimed the imam did not follow the Koran when he cited its wife beating passage when he beat his wife.

I'm just wondering how obvious your game is to even someone with your level of iq. Media reports - what you're asking for - aren't going to provide information that a husband first admonished then banished his wife prior to his beating of her.

Your request is a fallacy and you know it.

Now answer the questions you're purposely avoiding (because answering shows how it easy it is for wives to get beaten in Islam).

Imagining I lied doesn't really help you eh. You're the only one caught out in a blatant lie here.

But let's leave that fact to one side - how is your search for one Muslim man who has followed the stages described by God going? Still nothing?

Cheers,
Shafique

Asking fallacious questions is not going to help you.

We know that an Imam in Germany beat his wife citing the wife beating verse in the Koran.

We know you lied:

event horizon wrote:The article said he was following the Koran.

It didn't. The article says he allegedly was reciting a verse when hitting his wife. It does not say he had followed God's instructions - which is what I am challenging you to find: one real (rather than imagined) example of.

Should you find one person, we can discuss that. Try not to tell such blatant lies in the future.

Cheers,
Shafiqiue

Enough with your fallacious question.

You know there's no reason for an article to know or report that a wife was verbally abused then grounded before she was physically abused by her husband.

It's with this knowledge that you demand your request be met before answering such a simple question - which, by the way, is totally irrelevant to your request.

If husbands never suspect rebellion from their wives then they can never beat their wives according to the Koran.

So, the question is key to preventing wife beating or any of the two steps before wife beating - verbal abuse and "grounding".

How do wives need to behave to ensure their husbands do not suspect rebellion?

Should you find one real example, let me know.

Your lie was not a 'fallacious question' but a lie. I asked you whether you had read the article (giving you the opportunity to admit to being mistaken in your claim).

Your hypothetical questions etc have all been addressed in previous threads - as I stated on pg 1 of this thread. Now it is up to you to provide just one example of a real life case. You've thus far failed spectacularly and even resorted to lying about finding one.

Cheers,
Shafique

--- Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:17 am ---

shafique wrote:Do you know of any Muslim man that has invoked this punishment and gone through all 3 stages? Perhaps we can look at that incident and see what the crime was etc.

Deal? (I know of no one, so can't help. Perhaps you're right - let's see what examples of people actually using this verse are.)

Cheers,
Shafique

I asked you whether you had read the article (giving you the opportunity to admit to being mistaken in your claim).

Calling someone else a liar when you cited a percentage related to rape and claimed it was regarding domestic abuse?

You sure were caught up in that one, even making excuses ignoring the fact that you still lied when you made the claim up.

How do wives need to behave to ensure their husbands do not suspect rebellion?

It is not name calling but stating a fact when I quote you stating something that is verifiably untrue - it is a lie.

As per my quote in my previous post - the offer to discuss any REAL incident that you can uncover still stands. You had to invent one and lie about it to make it look like a real incident. But the lie was easily exposed.

Cheers,
Shafique

It is not name calling but stating a fact when I quote you stating something that is verifiably untrue - it is a lie.

Are you referring to when you cited a statistic from a NYT article claiming the article was talking about domestic abuse rather than rape?

Anyway, I guess wives will still be suspected of rebelling against their Muslim husbands until you inform them of what they have to do to avoid making their husbands suspect them of misbehavior.

You are now trolling.

You lied in this thread, I didn't. You lied about finding one example of a Muslim following the instructions laid out by God in the Quran. Imagining that I lied in other threads doesn't really help you here -hence you are trolling.

Now, should you EVER find one real life example then we can see whether your theory has any basis in reality. Until then, you're asking me to validate your blogger-only fantasy.

Cheers,
Shafique

You are now trolling.

I've asked you the same question that was asked in the OP.

You've repeatedly refused to answer that question.

You're trolling by any standard or definition.

Just read the OP again if you're confused.

How do wives need to behave to ensure their husbands do not suspect rebellion?

What is amazing is that you are trolling your own thread!

All you have to do is admit that you can't find one real example of a Muslim following God's commandment in the Quran on this point, and since you can't your question and underlying blogger-theory remains a hypothetical. I recommend you go back to pg 1 and read Nucleus and my initial posts.

You and your blogger friends have thus far failed to find one real example - I suspect you won't find one now. Just admit you've failed yet again.

Cheers,

Shafique

Read the OP to see who is trolling.

I'm staying on topic., you're not. By definition, that makes you the troll.

How do wives need to behave to ensure their husbands do not suspect rebellion?

shafique wrote:You obviously have a lot to learn. I'm glad you're taking the time to get enlightened - but given that all this was explained to you before, you seem to have an issue with comprehension.

May I ask you a simple question, eh?

Do you know of any Muslim man that has invoked this punishment and gone through all 3 stages? Perhaps we can look at that incident and see what the crime was etc.

Deal? (I know of no one, so can't help. Perhaps you're right - let's see what examples of people actually using this verse are.)

This reply was also on pg 1.

It is crystal clear that you cannot actually find a real life example of a Muslim man punishing a 'rebellious wife' according to the commandment of God in the Quran. Should you find an example, you'll have your answer - the 'crime' that woman committed made her rebellious. But as that woman so far does not exist in reality.. the crime is also hypothetical.

Cheers,
Shafique

So what is a rebellious wife? We have seen the examle of a biker wife, but is that it? It does appear Muslim posters need to hide something. Despite a load of non related posts, nothing has been made clear, on the contrary, which makes makes one to suspect the worst.

As I said on pg 1 of this thread, this verse is actually about how Islam does not allow wife beating. It works in practice, as I don't know any Muslim man who has applied the punishments God details in the Quran.

Eh and his blogger friends can speculate all they like, but the fact remains that this verse is not about allowing wife beating.

Again, people are free to suspect what they like - but if in practice this verse is not being used to beat women, the speculation is just that - speculation - and nothing more.

Cheers,

Shafique

What is a rebellious wife? One would think thats a very simple question.

In the context of the Quranic verse in question - the rebellious wife does not exist in practice. I've not seen anyone apply this verse and therefore haven't found one example of such a 'rebellious' wife.

This is just another example of some bloggers misinterpreting a Quranic verse and putting their spin on it.

Cheers,
Shafique