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You may not realise it ebonics, but you are doing yourself a dis-service.

Can you not see the irony in the fact you are happy to justify the invasion Muslim lands and killings of Muslims and yet bemoan the fact that Egypt was conquered by Muslims.

I am still happy to engage in you, but will await a contribution that is relevant to this thread (that Islam was spread by the sword).

The one example you gave of Egypt has been shown to be historically inaccurate - as Coptic Christians were still the majority after the Muslim conquest and gradually they converted to Islam over hundreds of years.

Cheers,
Shafique

history is only a point of view my friend - any educated person would tell you so, you can get a million points of view when it comes to history - some people say genocide never happened

like your qur'an - it is a point of view, is it fact or fiction - one will never know


Jill, wikipedia, could say whatever they want to say, the copts kept their own history and know it - i can trace back my family and tell you exactly where it happened, if you want books that support my history, i can dig some up for you - but one step at a time, look at the links in the previous pages, quite amusing



a man can sleep with his illegitamte daughter, because she really isnt his daughter according to al bukhary?

muhammed ordering his wife to breast feed men before entering his house?

perhaps more apt in the qur'an is fact of fiction thread, but it just so happen i paste them here - if you wish i could copy and paste them twice.


no im not doing myself injustice my friend, you seem to have ignored my 2 previous posts to take back to something completely unfounded - quoted from wikipedia of all sources, from a book by someone called JILL - how on earth is she a credible egyptian historian, someone that is documenting things that happened over a 1000 years ago in a region that she would be as far disconnected from?

ill site my own history books, unfortunatly - i was not allowed to bring any of my journals, or books with me that elude to any other religion other than islam, that included all my coptic history books when i came here from australia -

they also intend to go through my record collection record by record, when it gets here to ensure none of them are of none-muslim nature... i look forward to a bunch of arabs listening to thousands of electronica records should be very amusing.

if they decide to knock back my jewish psy trance records, i may just have to take that to court...

the imam's guide to beating your wife







shafique, i will continue till you reply to each of these videos, one by one.

the jizya is a tax - says shafique


this is straight out of sahih abu harirya


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTWTIzgKdY&NR=1

explaining the jizya..


your religion not mine my friend.. please explain.


again, i find it puzzling, that you're a none-arabic speaker, and you seem to think you understand it all - when its all in arabic... english translations would purposely not translate this, but translate what you want to hear....

how many sahih's have you read in english out of curiosity? why did you seem to skip over these? and how do you understand the fatwa's coming out of muslim countries in arabic?

I find it strange that freza stops posting after being presented with Biblical quotes, then ebonics appears on the scene. Hmmm

Nah - couldn't be.

ebonics - tell us the truth, you really love Islam don't you?

Cheers,
Shafique

dont worry about what i love and hate..

i love all humans equally - i never ask what religion are you, i live in a country where religion isnt a part of your ID - you meet everyone, and everyone is equal


i just find it puzzling the stories i hear, if jesus told his "wife" to breast feed adults before entering his house - i would have been so out of christianity with 2000 miles with no return


your prophet not mine my friend, this is why i said, we are born with brains to examine and question


so lets examine and question, you still seem un-able to reply



and no im not anyone that was here before - im fresh to the UAE, fresh as a daisy... ill make people wish i never came back with the knowledge i gathered over the years...... in the land of the free, and free speech...


explain to me shafique.... i already explained to you my stance on thinking that none christians can go to heaven, you owe me the same.

shafique wrote:ebonics - tell us the truth, you really love Islam don't you?

Cheers,
Shafique

actually, of course i love it... you have no idea over the years how many laughs these things brought me, before i found these things on youtube, they were on TV channels, thats how i knew about them in the first place... and watching muslim clerics compltely un-able to explain or justify them, just flooring...

so yes shafique, i absolutely love islam, as entertaining as monty python.

See - I knew we'd see eye-to-eye in the end!

'What did the Romans ever do for us?'

'We are the Knights who say Ni!'

.... always look on the bright side of life....

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, as much as i seem that im attacking - im not..


but muslims all around the world are trying to find answers to these questions from clerics - they are questioning logic..

they dont necessarily convert yet - but they want to understand... surely you want to understand?


no cleric, yet, has came up with answers to these things.... the only explaination that was posed so far was "times have changed"


ok - granted, times have changed..... but if time is changing religion these days, i wonder what is happening in other religions?


what kind of god, or prophet, would allow such talk period, regardless of what time this occured in??


the difference is, now its so easy to air these things out and ask these questions, 20 years ago, it wasnt... this is the time where people challenge what they were taught.... i challeneged MANY things christianity taught me - some make absolutely no sense....

i believe in evolution, i believe in not just the evolution of the physical, but i believe in the evolution of the brain with certain chemical agents present in the world we live in, entheogenics, things that make your mind open up new horizons - making you a new perosn with a clean slate everytime...


please read or listen to terrance mckenna's talk about culture being the software of our brains, and how software could be erased, re-uploaded and edited... again food for thought, but from personal experience it made that much sense over everything i was ever taught in my life..


im still awaiting replies regarding the above.

ebonics wrote:shafique, as much as i seem that im attacking - im not..

but muslims all around the world are trying to find answers to these questions from clerics - they are questioning logic..

It feels like you are just attacking.

If you can just take the time and type out one question that relates to this thread, I will take the time to answer it. The shot-gun approach (lots of links to you tube showing contemporary acts by muslims) is not relevant to this thread, and implies that you are not interested in discussion.

Take one issue, and let us discuss.

Your track record is not good - you asked me repeatedly for 'scripture' which showed that Christianity teaches that other religions are from the devil/don't lead to salvation. When I posted the references, you attacked the writer (who was a Christian) even though the point of the quote was to give you the references you asked for.

And remember, you are the one that invited questions about Christianity - after stating that you read and understood the Bible and have no problem with Christianity.

Your latest posts shows whilst you have left the religion of your fore-fathers (Coptic Christianity) you have a burning hatred of Muslims.

That doesn't matter too much to me - I'm happy to discuss any issue you care to raise. All I ask is that try and make it relevant to the thread, or start a new thread.

As I said before, if you want support for the view that Muslims commit atrocities - I'll stand by you and give you references. If you say they use Islam/Quran to justify these atrocities, that too I will agree with you.

I just try to be fair and put all of these into context - I try not to condemn Christianity for the acts of the Crusaders or the IRA etc, for example.

So, the ball is in your court - pick one issue, write it out and I will answer. If you link to another you-tube video, I will take it you are not interested in a written debate and I will refer you to the numerous you-tube videos which extol Islam and the ones that critique the Bible (and I'll ask you to counter their arguments).

Fair?

Cheers,
Shafique

Hi ebonics.

I think you're a little one-sided with some of your ideas.
The whole war vs terrorism debate...the idea that the west or other religions only declare war, while muslims seem only to implement terrorism (no you didn't say that but it is heavily implied)...it's the dross you read in any average American chat forum.

Not having a go at the yanks - or the Brits - but the whole 'why can't they (whoever they are!) march onto a battlefield and fight 'man to man'....it's really daft, naive actually...

First of all, you've got the whole terrorism vs war debate. Look, I DO believe there is a difference but the difference starts to fade if you're the people that are getting blown up by missiles and bombs. I mean, what kind of dialogue should the victims be having:
"Oh you should consider yourself lucky. My brother was killed by a fanatic with a bomb belt, yours was shot in the head by a sniper"...c'mon...

There is a famous quote by Sir Peter Ustinov: 'War is the terrorism of the rich, terrorism is the war of the poor.' I think there's a lot of truth in that.
Whoever is doing the terrorism is usually the poor, desperate and downtrodden. No, that doesn't make them right. But asking them to organize an army and fight 'conventionally'...does it ever happen that way?

Secondly, there is again the implication that muslims have not - or do not - suffer from acts of terrorism themselves. I think Shafique mentioned Bosnia.

What about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? How many mosques got defiled then? How many Qurans got burned then? Women raped etc etc.
What a great 'conventional' war!

I actually have quite a few issues with both Islam and the way it is 'coping' in today's world. And no, I don't white-wash both past atrocities committed under Islam, or more recent ones.

But I just can't stand the whole "West/Christians do war, Islam/Muslims do terrorism" rubbish...

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:shafique, as much as i seem that im attacking - im not..

but muslims all around the world are trying to find answers to these questions from clerics - they are questioning logic..

It feels like you are just attacking.

If you can just take the time and type out one question that relates to this thread, I will take the time to answer it. The shot-gun approach (lots of links to you tube showing contemporary acts by muslims) is not relevant to this thread, and implies that you are not interested in discussion.

Take one issue, and let us discuss.

Your track record is not good - you asked me repeatedly for 'scripture' which showed that Christianity teaches that other religions are from the devil/don't lead to salvation. When I posted the references, you attacked the writer (who was a Christian) even though the point of the quote was to give you the references you asked for.

And remember, you are the one that invited questions about Christianity - after stating that you read and understood the Bible and have no problem with Christianity.

Your latest posts shows whilst you have left the religion of your fore-fathers (Coptic Christianity) you have a burning hatred of Muslims.

That doesn't matter too much to me - I'm happy to discuss any issue you care to raise. All I ask is that try and make it relevant to the thread, or start a new thread.

As I said before, if you want support for the view that Muslims commit atrocities - I'll stand by you and give you references. If you say they use Islam/Quran to justify these atrocities, that too I will agree with you.

I just try to be fair and put all of these into context - I try not to condemn Christianity for the acts of the Crusaders or the IRA etc, for example.

So, the ball is in your court - pick one issue, write it out and I will answer. If you link to another you-tube video, I will take it you are not interested in a written debate and I will refer you to the numerous you-tube videos which extol Islam and the ones that critique the Bible (and I'll ask you to counter their arguments).

Fair?

Cheers,
Shafique

i do believe i answered you shafique, and told you, personally i think anyone that lives a just life - regardless of jesus in his life or not, is going to go to heaven... thats my personal belief...

weather the bible teaches so or not - thats completely not my issue, ask a hard-line christian.


also read what i said in the other thread, that all muslim, christian, jews have shed blood in their own time, and i want nothing to do with all this - hence i live by the beliefs i have now..

i believe in science, evolution, maths, etc... i believe in cognition.

im dont linking youtubes, and i understand that you will not tackle any of them, because you wouldnt have any answers to them.. neither do people of al-azhar - they're things that make you think and use the cognition that i refer to above.


burton


the difference between war and terrorism

war is political

terrorism is secular cleansing


the difference between a bomb landing on a mosque between two organised countries in war is VERY different from a lunatic jew or christian going in, killing random people, yelling DEATH TO ALL MUSLIMS and leaving (or klilling himself) - the first one may carry a label (death to all *insert country here*)

muslims fought with muslims before too and shed each others blood..

i hope that is clear



and i will repeat - the above is not, my, or any christian or jew's (he actually sounds isreali to me even though he says he's christian) words..... this is straight out of scripture and sahih's that explain it..

what i or he did is shed light on it.

shafique wrote:
Your latest posts shows whilst you have left the religion of your fore-fathers (Coptic Christianity) you have a burning hatred of Muslims.

quiet the contrary... i just dont like how they kill my countrymen..

not all are like that, some of my dearest friends are muslims... but they also admit to the atrocities islam causes - they dont turn a blind eye. do you now see the difference?

ebonics - I don't understand arabic, so can't respond to the points made on you tube. The one link in dubbed English was on the justification of Trinity - and that was not convincing at all (but that relates to the Bible and not the Quran).

Sorry, but unless you want to wait for me to learn Arabic (I am taking lessons), you have to present the issues here.

Also, thanks for confirming that your belief about salvation is different from the Bible's - your view is closer to Islam's, in that all will be judged according to their actions/intentions.

I too believe in evolution, mathematics and cognition - above all I believe in logic. See - even more we have in common!

Cheers,
shafique

ebonics wrote:not all are like that, some of my dearest friends are muslims... but they also admit to the atrocities islam causes - they dont turn a blind eye. do you now see the difference?

Which part of 'I agree muslims commit atrocities' in my post above did you not understand?

Cheers,
Shafique

and which part of me saying that christians and jews do too - but not in a terrorist manner like islam does.



and shafique i already commended your attitude, you're a very open minded person..

shafique, all the links above posted this morning, are all in english... i made sure they're all in english for you.

im sorry if i can come across as aggressive - life taught me to be a carnivore with my words.. its survival of the fittest in this jungle we call life..

Sorry to hear you believe only muslims mis-use their religion and commit acts of Terror.

As an Egyptian (I presume) I am surprised you were unaware/forgot that the state of Israel was formed after terror attacks were made against the British - King David Hotel bombing is widely recognised as the first 'modern era' terror attack, as well as the tactics of the Irgun and Sten Gang (not sure of spellings) - which many say set the basis for terrorist groups since.

Or do you think that these people weren't religiously minded?

I personally think that Israel is committing acts of Terror today, and perhaps is the biggest terror organisation in the world.

Anyway - can we get back to the question of this thread - was Islam spread by the sword? Territorial conquest did take place, but the religion itself was and continues to spread from people choosing to convert.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:the jizya is a tax - says shafique


this is straight out of sahih abu harirya


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTWTIzgKdY&NR=1

explaining the jizya..


your religion not mine my friend.. please explain.


again, i find it puzzling, that you're a none-arabic speaker, and you seem to think you understand it all - when its all in arabic... english translations would purposely not translate this, but translate what you want to hear....

how many sahih's have you read in english out of curiosity? why did you seem to skip over these? and how do you understand the fatwa's coming out of muslim countries in arabic?

if you chose to ignore everything i posted


this is the only one that relates to the jizya, and how muslims should treat none muslims where they go and open up new lands..


but please, do not just ignore and argue, watch all the videos i posted this morning (all in english)

then reply. it's the least you owe me after spending so much time digging up scriptures in english.. (this is costing me time and money at work - im gonna have to start billing you if you ignore hahahaha )



trust me you dont want to force me into opening a new thread with this stuff.

shafique wrote:but the religion itself was and continues to spread from people choosing to convert.

im assuming you also skipped over the video of the court case of the man that converted to islam, and then changed his mind and wanted to go back to christianity. and the western TV report regarding muslims wishing to convert to islam, and how muslims treat them.

jizya is a tax payable by non-Muslims. Muslims pay a different tax.

In return, non-Muslims have freedom of religion and are exempt from military duty.

References:I'll quote 3 Hadith (there are more):

* Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 13, Number 2955 mentions that Umar ibn al-Khattab levied jizya on non-Muslims in return for providing protection to them.
* Book 19, Number 2955 has Umar ibn al-Khattab stating that he provided protection for non-Muslims by levying jizya on them, and neither took one-fifth from it, nor took it as booty.
* Book 19, Number 3031 states that Muhammad captured Ukaydir, the Christian prince of Dumah, and spared his life and made peace with him on the condition that he paid jizya.


This summary makes reference to books listed after the text

Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah is a per capita tax levied on the state's non-Muslim citizens. The tax was levied on able bodied men of military age,[1] (with some exemptions,[2][3] though these were discarded at various points in history[4]). From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' subjection, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[5]

In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practise their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and taxes levied upon Muslim citizens.[6][7][8]

References:
[1] Kennedy, Hugh (2004). The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates. Longman, 68.
[2] Shahid Alam, Articulating Group Differences: A Variety of Autocentrisms, Journal of Science and Society, 2003
[3] Ali (1990), pg. 507
[4] "The provisions of ancient Islamic law which exempted the indigent, the invalids and the old, were no longer observed in the Geniza period and had been discarded by the Shāfi‘ī School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory." Goiten, S.D. "Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources", Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient 1963, Vol. 6, pp. 278-279.
[5] Cl. Cahen in Encyclopedia of Islam, Jizya article
[6] John Louis Esposito, Islam the Straight Path, Oxford University Press, Jan 15, 1998, p. 34.

Cheers,
Shafique

Book 19, Number 3031 states that Muhammad captured Ukaydir, the Christian prince of Dumah, and spared his life and made peace with him on the condition that he paid jizya.

so he spared his life, hows that not opened by the sword? this also validates what i said, no jizya = death



also

you quoted books modern day, published books...

the video quotes Sura 9 verse 29... and the explaination thereof based on a muslim Sahih...


you're chosing published books over "sahih muslim abi huriyra"?

(excuse my spelling)

shafiq do you know what a sahih is? this relates back to you not speaking arabic, you also avoided that question.

did you do that reply after watching the video, or before?

Yes, I know what Sahih is.

I also know that not all Hadith in the Sahih are authentic and many are contradictory.

I also know that in terms of authenticity the test is :
1. is it in accordance with the Quran
2. is it in accordance with Sunnah (practice of the Prophet, pbuh)
3. is it consistent with other hadith.

Jizya, was a tax imposed on non-Muslims and the hadith all relate to periods at the start of Islam.

The later quotes are from historians and cover the period to modern times.

Yes, there were instances where Jizya was mis-used - notably in the latter part of Mughal dynasty in India, but even then I don't think it was used to force conversions.

You seem to miss the big point that Muslims paid a different tax - so converting would not exempt you from paying 'the man'. However, paying Jizya meant that you could hold the state responsible for your protection.

I really don't see anything objectionable to paying a tax.

If you are saying that the punishment for not paying a tax was a bit harsh (death), I would agree with you. However it was similarly harsh in Europe - not paying taxes or levies was similarly punished. Refusing to pay Jizya was treasonable as it indicated not recognising the authority of the government.

However, I can't see the link between not paying the Jizya and converting to Islam. If you converted, you would have to pay Muslim taxes.

If you can show me that Muslims paid less tax than the Jizya, then you may have a point. Please specify which period and territory you are referring to when you reply - so I can address your concern specifically.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Yes, I know what Sahih is.

I also know that not all Hadith in the Sahih are authentic and many are contradictory.

I also know that in terms of authenticity the test is :
1. is it in accordance with the Quran
2. is it in accordance with Sunnah (practice of the Prophet, pbuh)
3. is it consistent with other hadith.

and this - exactly - is fundamentally whats wrong with islam, even though hadith and sahih are to be followed religiously, it could be very selective according to what you said.


so if you dont like a sahih or hadith i bring up, you can casually brush it off as un-authentic..... even though the source is a muslim website straight out of saudia arabia, what would be considered a fountain of information for muslims world wide.... no one would know islam better than the saudi's - thats a given.

thats a very weak and fickle way to go about faith.


can you shafique, before i take the time to discuss every sahih and hadith that i have mentioned, take the time and tell me which sahih's are considered bogus? and are generally un-accepted by muslims today?

i know one of the ones i quoted is from El-Bokhary - and he is a most definate corner stone of muslim faith.... so that excuse will most definatly not apply...


do tell me though, which are considered not credible.

you still havent answered me, have you watched the video about jizya, or you are still answering me without watching?

ebonics - can you clarify what comments you want me to make on hadith that I consider un-authentic?

Surely we should go by what the actual practice of jizya was and assess whether Islam was spread by the sword or not. Do you disagree?

Quran is the word of God, Hadith are prone to error - Bukhari went out of his way to keep the contradictory hadith to make this point. He just gives the chain of transmission, but does not say that all are authentic - some people mis-remembered, some people mis-interpreted. That is why all Hadith are tertiary evidence after the Quran and Sunnah.

As stated before - sure there are instances of Muslim oppression. And sure, they may have used hadith or their views on Islam to justify the oppression. This is no different to the forced conversions and killings in Spain done in the name of Christianity (actually it is less evil, in my mind - but hey, oppression is oppression).

The premise of this thread though is to explore whether Islam - i.e. the religion- was spread by the sword.

If someone 'believes' Islam was spread by the sword - then this is what they believe. I don't believe Islam was spread by the sword and am willing to quote historians to back up this belief.

Am I being unreasonable to ask someone who challenges my belief to provide proof. If no proof is provided, I can only say 'your belief is different from mine'.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:you still havent answered me, have you watched the video about jizya, or you are still answering me without watching?

My post above answers clearly the misinformation in the video.

A non-Muslim that converts also has to pay a tax - so to convert because of Jizya makes no sense. Jizya is therefore not a tool to force conversion, but a tax.

This last fact has not been refuted by you or by the video. Why do +you+ ignore this?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The premise of this thread though is to explore whether Islam - i.e. the religion- was spread by the sword.

you yourself just said muhammad spared someone's life - ie not killed him, on the condition of paying him some gold coins?

so the sword would have been to his throat, with someone forcing him to pay up.

anyway, i will take excerpts from teh above video or summerize rather i wont type word for word - because you to have not watched it, since you havent commented on its contents.

PS - the word jizya in arabic, literally means penalty, so his description as penalty is 100% accurate..

"we are going to read the muslims explaination (Sura 9 verse 29) of ibn kathir - the prophet says that these jews and christians have to pay the penalty if they refuse to convert to islam - it is a punishment, thats why its called a jizya, it comes from the word Jaza'a - which means penalty or punishment, not as some muslims claim it means tax, that is a false argument"
"muslims say it was you paid if you didnt join the army"
"but islam was an occupation, they will not let the locals they just occupied join their army - so they force you to pay money, not because you wouldnt join the army, because you're a christian and you refuse to convert"

makes all the sense in the world i must say, if i was a commander of an army, i wouldnt let some people i just conquered come into my ranks - they'd be morons otherwise.

"and this is what the prophet is saying according to sahih muslim - he is saying, the prophet said do not ever say salam aleikom, do not start every saying shalom or hello to a christian or a jew, and if you see them in the street, force him to go into the most narrow, ugly, bad road - you have to himiliate him, and insult them, with no respect, because they refused to convert to islam"

"on top of that you must pay nearly 3 quarters your income to keep your faith and stay alive - if you stop paying you have 2 choices, to convert or die. this is from the book of ibn kathir, this is quoted from an official government website of saudia arabia"

*scrolls up*

"as you can see, this is from the website as it says (now in arabic) "al mamlaka el arabia el seeoodeya, wezaret el awkaf, kesm el da3aya wel ershad..... "


as i already mentioned, no one knows islam better than the saudi's... so this is no hoax, or made up information, this is straight out of their website translated word for word by the speaker.

im going to attempt to search and find this website myself, so the link is readily presented for any arabic reader to read and verify himself.

success...........


Sura 9 verse 29

[29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 9 verse 30

[30] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Al-Masih the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


who on earth is uzair btw?


and tafseer ibn katheer (as authenticated by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance)

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispT ... tashkeel=0


i think now you have no excuse but to reply shafique, i did my homework.

i just read it in arabic, and it word for word, reflects whats above.