Violent Expectations In Bible

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Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 06, 2011
The Bible contains some exceedingly violent verses, including this one from the OT:

O Babylon, you will be destroyed. Happy is the one who pays you back for what you have done to us.
Blessed is the one who grabs your babies and smashes them against a rock.

Psalm 137:8, 9

However, one often hears the argument that the Christians don't generally believe in the violent verses of the OT apply any more (which is a good thing).

That said, it would be interesting to see whether the future violence at the hands of the 'son of God' that is described below is similarly denied by the Christian posters here. I somehow doubt it.

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.


http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

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Shafique

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Re: Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 07, 2011
Just How Violent Is Jesus?

Someone recently directed me to this article, which is just nonsensical enough to be dangerous. The question posed is whether or not the typical representation of Jesus as a peaceful prophet and Muhammad as a violent prophet is accurate. The conclusion: Jesus is perhaps the most violent religious figure of all time.

Let me begin by stating that I do not believe that Muhammad was especially violent. The article suggests that the demonization of Muhammad relies on the depiction of him as particularly bloodthirsty. If there are those who believe that, I think that is a deeply unfounded view of history. The fact that the author of the article turns around and attempts to demonize Old Testament figures is hypocritical and equally misguided. Muhammad was not especially violent and neither was Moses or Joshua or David. They were all a quite typical level of violent for warlords or kings of their periods. (I will not go into here the hermeneutics necessary to understand the violence of Old Testament figures, as the post is primarily an issue about Jesus.) Muhammad, had he been a simple king and not a religious figure, would probably be remembered as the military and political genius who inaugurated one of the great empires in medieval if not world history. So the author is right to oppose historical misrepresentations of Muhammad.

When addressing the question of whether or not Jesus is a more violent figure, however, the author leaves the bounds of his own investigation in an attempt to make his case. It is here that the argument falls woefully short. He wants to compare the past historical actuality of Muhammad’s actions to the prophesied eschatological judgment which has Jesus as its agent. An intellectually honest answer to the question of which religious leader was in fact more peaceful requires a direct comparison with corresponding parameters. Islam, no less than Christianity, understands God to be a just God who will punish the wicked and reward the righteous. If we compare the religions in terms of their eschatological picture of the fate of the enemies of God, both are “violent” (if we want to use that word in a superficial way). If we really want to get to the root of each teacher’s character, however, then it is appropriate to confine ourselves to the actual evidence relevant to the question: the behavior and teaching, between birth and death, of each man.

These, in a brief and inadequate way, are the actual facts:


* Muhammad was a political leader who ordered, endorsed, and conducted military campaigns. He gave his disciples a framework for a future philosophy of violence which set boundaries on its appropriate use. His life and teaching led immediately to an expansive empire founded on military conquest.

* Jesus was a political pariah who never attacked another person, never endorsed attacking another person, and who ultimately died in peaceful submission both to God and the political authorities. He explicitly forbade violence of any kind, never retaliating for any physical affront and never intervening violently to prevent affronts against others. When his apostles behaved violently anyway, he rebuked them and corrected the damage caused. The church, adopting this teaching, was led to centuries of voluntary persecution.


Those facts cannot be disputed and are not disputed by the article. Instead, the author tries to draw deeply flawed parallels between the temporal life of Muhammad and the eschatological destiny of Jesus. The parallel becomes particularly weak when the difference between the way the two figures function in their respective religions is observed. Muhammad is believed to be the culmination of a line of prophets; Jesus is believed to be God. Acting as God in the final judgment, he is the agent of divine wrath and will naturally be presented in a way which enacts judgment on evildoers in a way roughly analogous to the way the just God of Islam will dole out justice.

As a human agent, however, the career of Jesus could not be more distinct from that of Muhammad. Only by fundamentally altering the rules of engagement can the author even begin to depict Jesus as more violent than Muhammad. Even the suggestion that Jesus’ pacifism could be a product of his political situation patently contradicts the narrative in the Gospels. Jesus is expected by his disciples to seize power and at one point a mob even tries to make him king. At every turn he rejects the possibility of political authority, finally concluding before Pilate that “if my kingdom were of this world, my followers would fight.” He redefines rather than conforms to the militaristic messianic expectations of contemporary Jews.

Ultimately, the linked article represents the same ugly polemic that “Islamophobes” use to try to discredit Islam. It is methodologically flawed and transparent in its motivation. It is possible to admit that the historical person of Muhammad was violent in a way typical and even necessary of political leaders and to realize that Jesus was nonviolent and eschewed political power without being an “anti-Muslim ideologue.” A calm, cool examination of the facts will reveal that eschatologically, Islam and Christianity have similar conceptions of God’s justice (which, in Christianity, includes the agency of Christ as a member of the Trinity) but that the actual careers of their “founders” are profoundly different on the question of violence.


http://theitinerantmind.blogspot.com/20 ... jesus.html
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 07, 2011
Interesting cut and paste there, young one.

However, given it didn't actually address the topic of this thread - isn't it just another weak smoke and mirrors post (trying to deflect attention away from the topic)?

Let me remind you of the topic - it is of the Christian expectations of Jesus when he returns. The clue was in the first sentence of the quote:

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.


Can we stick on topic this time? Or do you really have nothing to disagree the quote from a Christian website? (Standard Loon disinformation about Islam aren't what this thread is about).

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Shafique
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Re: Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 07, 2011
I understand the article is a bit complex for you to understand. I posted the article under no delusion that I thought you would have been able to actually respond in an intelligent manner but for other readers who are more advanced to read and understand the slight of hand in the OP and make the correct conclusions in spite of the misleading and bogus comments in the OP.

If you feel any misinformation has been posted of Islam in the article I posted then I encourage you to actually leave a comment in the article's comment section. Otherwise I am fairly certain you are simply making the accusations as part of your standard operating procedure whenever your irrational and superstitious beliefs on Islam are not accepted by non-Muslims. It's basically the same game some minorities play when they cry racism every time a view of theirs is challenged (it also doesn't matter the race of the person who challenges the minority's belief, white, black, Asian or Latino can all become racist if they don't tote the 'party line')
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 07, 2011
The misinformation about Islam in your post can be dealt with in other threads (indeed, much of it has already been discussed).

Now, back to this thread's topic - the Christian view of Jesus when he returns and the violence that is expected.

No more smoke and mirrors, please. Try and stick to the subject.

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Shafique
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Re: Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 07, 2011
I think the article more than addresses the end times prophecies, draws comparisons with Christian and Islamic eschatology and finally shows the differences between what Islam and Christianity teach in violence that sufficiently answers any questions one may have.

After looking the word eschatology up, I encourage you to dispute anything the author of the article has written.
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 07, 2011
I'm still at a loss as to what your views of Islam has do to with a thread about violent expectations in the Bible? I'm sure we can compare violent verses of Quran with the Bible in another thread - this wasn't the topic here.

That said, it seems clear to me that you're just trying to avoid stating that you agree with the quote that indeed, Jesus' second coming according to the Bible will indeed be violent.

I understand why you want to avoid stating this plainly.

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent.


If I'm wrong (and you don't believe in the clear quote), please correct me. Is this partly why 58% of your fellow American Christians think that killing civilians is sometimes justified?

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Re: Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 08, 2011
Fail. Unlike what Islamic texts say, the Bible never says believers will take part in the violence.
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 08, 2011
Why bring up a straw man? Very weak, young man, very weak. (We can discuss why Christians do use the Bible to justify fighting in another thread - this one is about violent expectations).

I take it therefore you DO agree that Jesus' second coming will be very violent. What is your weasly, pathetic attempt at wriggling out of this fact?

You seem to agree with the conclusion then:
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.


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Shafique
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Re: Violent Expectations in Bible Aug 08, 2011
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.


Oh god, whatever happened to acts of God excuse that you tried to use to justify Allah's massacre of peoples in the Koran?

By your logic, your allah is a mass murderer and a torturer.
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 08, 2011
Enough with the whataboutery eh, this thread is about the Bible. :roll:

I'm not the one making excuses for people massacring whole villages, including women and children. That would be you - because the Bible tells you it was God's will. If you are arguing that makes you as 'bad' as a Muslim - then go ahead.

However, let's get back to the fact that you can't disagree with the conclusion:

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.


Why don't you have the courage of your convictions? Do you always have to blame Muslims?

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Shafique
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 08, 2011
More chances of making a stone cry blood then getting a straight up answer.
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Re: Violent Expectations In Bible Aug 16, 2011
^Young eh is apparently too busy looking at Memri videos to defend the Bible. :roll:

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