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event horizon · Sep 14, 2010

I'm currently reading Kung's book on Islam and I marked every page where the author discusses the meaning of the word.

The following are page numbers where Kung briefly discusses what the word 'islam' means: 15,25, 52, 62.

But on pages 77 and 78, Kung provides the most complete explanation of what 'islam' means:

page 77: from the Arabic verb aslama, 'to submit, hand oneself over, surrender' -- by its very names confesses none other than God: 'submission, handing over, surrendering' to God.

pg78: Since Arabic has no capital letters, the word islam can mean two things:

- islam, with an initial lower-case letter, means the act of submission to God: "your God is the One and Only God: hence, surrender yourselves unto Him"

- Islam, written as it were with an initial capital, means the religion of those who confess such submission under God: 'God proffers evidence ... that there is no deity save Him, the Upholder of Equity; there is no deity save Him, the Almighty, the Truly Wise."

End quote.

Hans Kung is clear to me - islam means submission, not peace. Apologists who spin the meaning of Islam are less than honest and have an agenda to push.

Shafique, could you please check your edition of Hans' book to confirm the quote from him?

shafique · Sep 14, 2010

Sure thing, I will check out the references and see whether he says that Islam does not have a secondary meaning of peace. As was discussed here, Aslama also means peace - see quote below..

shafique wrote:Hey, my quote actually comes from someone who exists and is a scholar ..

You still haven't actually addressed the simple point made over 6 months ago:
philosophy-dubai/meaning-islam-t39515-30.html#p320469

Aslama
Aslama (Ar. for: surrender; submission; obey; sincerity; peaceful attitude toward life) The word "aslama" derives from the three letter root in Arabic; s, l, m (pronounced - seen, laam, meem).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aslama forms the basis for the noun "ISLAM" and implies the meaning of being in a state of surrender, submission, obedience, sincerity and peace. The implication is the existence of two entities; one is the master and the other the slave or servant. This best describes the servitude of those who truly believe in the One God of the semitic language, "Allah" and indicates the choice of being in a state of aslama to Him.

philosophy-dubai/meaning-islam-t39515-45.html#p340178

I presume you are referring to 'Islam: Past, Present and Future' - let me know what parts you've read and we can discuss his findings about Islam.

Also, let me know when you confirm that Kung concludes that the God of the Quran is the same loving God of the Bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Sep 14, 2010

Nope, I couldn't see where Kung disputes the fact that Aslama includes the meaning of peace- but I'll continue looking/reading.

(BTW- I asked you to confirm with any scholar that Aslama does not also mean 'Peace' as quoted above - we're still waiting for you to pick up this challenge).

There are some details and conclusions that Kung makes that I would disagree with him on, but on the point of whether it is the same God .. he's pretty clear.

eh - confirm that on pg 90-91 Kung states:

Last is belief in the merciful, gracious God, who accepts human beings. In the Qur’an, as in the Bible, human beings are called ‘servants of God’: this does not mean slavery under a despot but expresses elementary human creatureliness before the one Lord. The Arabic ar-rahman (the ‘merciful’) is etymologically connected with the Hebrew rahamim, which together with hen and hesed represents the word-field of the New Testament charis and our word grace. Some statements in the Bible and the Qur’an can make God appear arbitrary, but the overall testimony of the Bible and the Qur’an is decisively that God is a God of grace and mercy.

Thus Judaism, Christianity and Islam together represent belief in the one God; they all are part of the one great monotheistic world movement. We should not underestimate the political significance of this shared belief in the one God, but be aware of it.

'decisively' he says - the God of the Bible an God of the Quran share the attributes of Mercy and Grace.

And on pg 123

Anyone who puts the Bible and the Qur’an side by side and reads them will recognize that the three revelatory religions of Semitic origin—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—and especially the Hebrew Bible and the Qur’an all have the same basis. One and the same God speaks clearly in both. ‘Thus says the Lord’ in the
Hebrew Bible corresponds to the ‘Say’ (qul: 332 times) of the Qur’an; the biblical ‘Go and proclaim!’ corresponds to the Qur’anic ‘Arise and warn!’.And finally, the millions of Arabic-speaking Christians know no other word for God but Allah!

So isn’t it perhaps simply a dogmatic prejudice for Christians to recognize Amos and Hosea, Isaiah and Jeremiah and the extremely violent Elijah as prophets, but not Muhammad?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 15, 2010

Hmm, so Kung is paying Muhammad a back handed compliment - 'those prophets were violent, so Muhammad could be prophet too!'.

But I do agree with Kung, we should examine the Koran to look for clear verses demonstrating allah's 'love' for non-believers and sinners.

I think this may even have been discussed on one or two threads already.

Do you know if *any* verse from the Koran was found to show allah's love for non-believers and unrepentant sinners?

shafique · Sep 15, 2010

shafique wrote:BTW- I asked you to confirm with any scholar that Aslama does not also mean 'Peace' as quoted above - we're still waiting for you to pick up this challenge.

I'll take that as a 'no I haven't been able to show that Aslama does NOT also mean peace as the dictionaries say'.

And it comes as no surprise that you won't tell us how much of Kung you have actually read - perhaps that is why you're not addressing his conclusions/quotes above, but rather trying (rather pathetically, it has to be said) to put a loon spin on his conclusion that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible.

You may also want to reference what he says about 'Jewish Christianity' and how it differs from 'Hellenistic/Byzantium Christianity' - he labels these as PI and PII (PI being what Jesus taught, the original version of Christianity). That is, if you actually are reading the book.

Cheers
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 15, 2010

I personally don't place much stock in Kung's scholarship, but you do.

I have read enough on early Christianity and talked to graduate students of Christian history to be able to distinguish the spin from insightful understanding of primitive Christianity.

This includes a heavy focus on the epistles (no, Jesus did not write any of the epistles), which form the earliest written records we have of Christianity.

Needless to say, for someone who still can't tell me the different theological beliefs between the followers of Stephen from Pharisaic Christians, but fancies himself a Bible Guru, my comment will fall on deaf ears.

shafique · Sep 15, 2010

You could have just said 'I will dismiss erudite scholars who disagree with Bob Spencer and what I was taught at Bible camp'.

However, I do concede that I do give more credence to Prof Hans Kung's conclusions about the history and development of Christian theology and make the same distinction he makes between PI and PII (Jewish Christianity and Hellenistic Christianity).

As we're discussing his book on Islam, I'll just quote what he says in passing about this (and which he goes into much more detail in his earlier book in the series, covering Christianity)

We should reflect that as in Christian theology, so too in Islamic theology, the ‘history of dogma’ has been written by the victors. Is it really true that the losers are always wrong? We can see early Islamic theology for what it really was only if we do not see the whole history of Islamic theology through the spectacles of later orthodoxy.That also applies to the history of Christian theology.

pg 181

You seem to be missing the point that quoting the 'official' history written by the Hellenistic Christian victors will of course reinforce their dogmatic views and will not show the views of the losers in a good light. Jewish Chrsitians disagreed with what I term Pauline Christianity and Kung calls PII (Hellenistic Christianity). Wishing that Jewish Christianity did not exist does not change actual history.

I pointed out to you that the difference between official Church history and reality is well known now-a-days amongst historians and famously was highlighted by Edward Gibbon in the 18th century.

But then again, I am not surprised that you think you know better than Prof Kung and other Church historians. What is surprising is that you think others will share your view.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 15, 2010

Needless to say, for someone who still can't tell me the different theological beliefs between the followers of Stephen from Pharisaic Christians, but fancies himself a Bible Guru, my comment will fall on deaf ears.

shafique · Sep 15, 2010

shafique wrote:You seem to be missing the point that quoting the 'official' history written by the Hellenistic Christian victors will of course reinforce their dogmatic views and will not show the views of the losers in a good light. Jewish Chrsitians disagreed with what I term Pauline Christianity and Kung calls PII (Hellenistic Christianity). Wishing that Jewish Christianity did not exist does not change actual history.

Still missing the point, I see.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 15, 2010

However, I do concede that I do give more credence to Prof Hans Kung's conclusions about the history and development of Christian theology and make the same distinction he makes between PI and PII (Jewish Christianity and Hellenistic Christianity).

Right, and I give more credence to specialists on primitive Christianity than I do to pop-culture scholars.

But hey, I can understand your characterization of those who dismiss your beliefs by accusing them of 'relying on the official version' of events (as if you could ever get to that level) as a nice way to distract from your own ignorance of the topic at hand and timely loss of memory that you are completely reliant on Dot com sources for all your knowledge of either Islamic or Christian theology and history.

shafique · Sep 15, 2010

You always go for the weird choices don't you eh - Bob Spencer and other loon bloggers over scholars of Islam, and now your bible camp teachers over Professor Hans Kung.

But hey, at least you now know who Edward Gibbon is!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2010

I take this as your concession that Islam means submission, not peace (as I said all along).

shafique · Sep 16, 2010

Nope. Try again - this time try reading and understanding the dictionary definition of Aslama which includes the word peace. You have quoted Kung state that Islam derives from Aslama...ergo you've shot yourself in the foot.

Again, I ask you to provide ONE expert who disputes the fact Aslama also means peace as quoted above.

Heck, I even highlighted the relevant bits for you:

Aslama
Aslama (Ar. for: surrender; submission; obey; sincerity; peaceful attitude toward life) The word "aslama" derives from the three letter root in Arabic; s, l, m (pronounced - seen, laam, meem).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aslama forms the basis for the noun "ISLAM" and implies the meaning of being in a state of surrender, submission, obedience, sincerity and peace. The implication is the existence of two entities; one is the master and the other the slave or servant. This best describes the servitude of those who truly believe in the One God of the semitic language, "Allah" and indicates the choice of being in a state of aslama to Him.

Don't tell me you're still confused!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2010

Let's not try to play linguistic gymnastics.

We're talking about Islam, not the word it derives from.

Islam=submission

page 77: from the Arabic verb aslama, 'to submit, hand oneself over, surrender' -- by its very names confesses none other than God: 'submission, handing over, surrendering' to God.

shafique · Sep 16, 2010

Yes, read what Kung states - Islam comes from the word Aslama.

Look up the meaning of Aslama and you'll see that Kung has just quoted the first few meanings - not the full meaning.

So again, fail.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2010

I'll leave that to you.

I've so far quoted two scholars who are clear on the meaning of Islam.

How many have you quoted?

-- Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:16 am --

‘Islam’ is an Arabic word and connotes submission, surrender, and obedience As a religion, Islam stands for complete submission and obedience to Allah and that is why it is called ‘ISLAM’.

submission and obedience

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Book ... pter1.html

That's three.

shafique · Sep 16, 2010

So, you are still confused?

Ok - let's try again.

I'll go s l o w l y .. so there'll be less confustion. Let's start with your words:

event horizon wrote:I'm currently reading Kung's book on Islam and I marked every page where the author discusses the meaning of the word.

But on pages 77 and 78, Kung provides the most complete explanation of what 'islam' means:

page 77: from the Arabic verb aslama, 'to submit, hand oneself over, surrender' -- by its very names confesses none other than God: 'submission, handing over, surrendering' to God.

So, Kung confirms that Islam derives from the versb Aslama.

He confirms that the primary meaning is submission. He does not dispute the dictionary defintion of Aslama and fuller meaning of Islam:

Aslama
Aslama (Ar. for: surrender; submission; obey; sincerity; peaceful attitude toward life) The word "aslama" derives from the three letter root in Arabic; s, l, m (pronounced - seen, laam, meem).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aslama forms the basis for the noun "ISLAM" and implies the meaning of being in a state of surrender, submission, obedience, sincerity and peace. The implication is the existence of two entities; one is the master and the other the slave or servant. This best describes the servitude of those who truly believe in the One God of the semitic language, "Allah" and indicates the choice of being in a state of aslama to Him.

So, yet another classic example of a loon failure and reliance on selective interpretation.

Your task is simple, young one, show that ANY scholar disputes the full meaning of Aslama above - until then, you are just tilting at windmills in insisting that the meaning of peace does not exist.

Then, we can address the fact that you still have no answer to the conclusion that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible - with the same attributes.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2010

So in the numerous instances Kung defines Islam, he forgot to mention that Islam's 'secondary' meaning is peace?

Yeah right.

shafique · Sep 17, 2010

Kung was quite clear that Islam derives from the verb Aslama - he didn't expect to have to spoon feed young loons who are too lazy to check the dictionary definition of the word and see that he only quoted the first few meanings of the word in his references.

But yet again, we see that the loon argument relies on selective quotes and a loon interpretation of facts which are blown away by a cursory examination of evidence.

So, when will you address the central conclusion of Kung that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible - sharing the same attributes of Grace, Mercy etc?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 17, 2010

So that's why Kung fails to mention that Islam also means peace.

Because he doesn't want to 'spoon feed' anyone even though he says that Islam means submission more than a half dozen times.

Your excuses get more creative by the day.

But yet again, we see that the loon argument relies on selective quotes and a loon interpretation of facts which are blown away by a cursory examination of evidence.

Just quote ONE scholar who says that Islam means peace.

Just one.

shafique · Sep 17, 2010

So you want to believe you're right and the dictionary is wrong. :roll:

Are loons allergic to evidence?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 17, 2010

Ok, quote a dictionary that says that Islam means peace.

shafique · Sep 17, 2010

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt:

shafique wrote:You really should try and keep up.

It is not that difficult.

Aslama is the verb from which the word Islam derives from. You stated this in a previous post.

The full meaning of Aslama has been posted above. You have been invited to check in any lexicon or dictionary to confirm the fact Aslama also means 'entered into peace'. I see just evasion on your part.

Ergo, once again your Orientalist views have been shown to rely on selective quotations and the wilful ignoring of evidence when posted.

Cheers,
Shafique

philosophy-dubai/meaning-islam-t39515-15.html#p320426

shafique · Sep 17, 2010

Unless there is new evidence uncovered about what the noun Islam which derives from the verb aslama - we can move on to what Kung says in the book eh quoted.

shafique wrote:There are some details and conclusions that Kung makes that I would disagree with him on, but on the point of whether it is the same God .. he's pretty clear.

eh - confirm that on pg 90-91 Kung states:

Last is belief in the merciful, gracious God, who accepts human beings. In the Qur’an, as in the Bible, human beings are called ‘servants of God’: this does not mean slavery under a despot but expresses elementary human creatureliness before the one Lord. The Arabic ar-rahman (the ‘merciful’) is etymologically connected with the Hebrew rahamim, which together with hen and hesed represents the word-field of the New Testament charis and our word grace. Some statements in the Bible and the Qur’an can make God appear arbitrary, but the overall testimony of the Bible and the Qur’an is decisively that God is a God of grace and mercy.

Thus Judaism, Christianity and Islam together represent belief in the one God; they all are part of the one great monotheistic world movement. We should not underestimate the political significance of this shared belief in the one God, but be aware of it.

'decisively' he says - the God of the Bible an God of the Quran share the attributes of Mercy and Grace.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 17, 2010

But we're talking about the meaning of Islam, not the meaning of aslama.

Epic fail.

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

I agree, it is indeed an Epic Fail - on your part.

You have quoted experts who all agree that the noun Islam derives from the verb Aslama. The experts you quote, give the first few meanings of Aslama when defining the meaning of the derived noun Islam - look above, I quoted what you quoted.

Anyway, I fully understand why you want to ignore the facts - you have no answer to the substantive point which punks your whole loon argument: The God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible and shares the same attributes.

How does it feel to fail so spectacularly by quoting a scholar that undermines your whole loon argument that the God of Islam is not the God of Jesus??

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 18, 2010

I'm not asking for the meaning of a root word (duh), I'm asking for you to quote a scholar who claims that Islam means peace.

Obviously, words derived from a root word do not carry over all of the meaning of the root word, otherwise Danios would be forced to admit that madhmum and dhimmi both hold the same meaning because they share the same root word.

You can check any other Arabic dictionary to prove that “dhimmi” does not mean “guilty.” The word “madhmum” shares the same root as “dhimmi”, but so do many other words. To imply that there is a necessary connection between the two is pure idiocy, and proof of one’s ignorance of Arabic. They are quite simply two separate words entirely.

Pure idiocy

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

Ah, young loon - when will you learn to read what you quote?

The root of Islam (the noun) is 's-l-m', but the verb it derives from is Aslama. The meaning of Islam (the noun) depends on the meaning of the verb 'Aslama' (and in turn this derives from the root s-l-m - from which we also get Salaam etc).

You quoted Kung stating this - in your first post.

So, we are left with a sole loon (and his blogger friends) who is in denial about the full meaning quoted.

BUT, the interesting point still remains:

shafique wrote:There are some details and conclusions that Kung makes that I would disagree with him on, but on the point of whether it is the same God .. he's pretty clear.

eh - confirm that on pg 90-91 Kung states:

Last is belief in the merciful, gracious God, who accepts human beings. In the Qur’an, as in the Bible, human beings are called ‘servants of God’: this does not mean slavery under a despot but expresses elementary human creatureliness before the one Lord. The Arabic ar-rahman (the ‘merciful’) is etymologically connected with the Hebrew rahamim, which together with hen and hesed represents the word-field of the New Testament charis and our word grace. Some statements in the Bible and the Qur’an can make God appear arbitrary, but the overall testimony of the Bible and the Qur’an is decisively that God is a God of grace and mercy.

Thus Judaism, Christianity and Islam together represent belief in the one God; they all are part of the one great monotheistic world movement. We should not underestimate the political significance of this shared belief in the one God, but be aware of it.

'decisively' he says - the God of the Bible an God of the Quran share the attributes of Mercy and Grace.

You can run, but you cannot hide.

Dude, you HAVE no arguments!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 18, 2010

Just quote a single scholar/linguist who claims that the religion of Islam means peace.

shafique · Sep 19, 2010

Dude, you ARE in denial.
philosophy-dubai/meaning-islam-t39515-45.html#p340178

Anyway, moving on to the substantive point - what do you say about Professor Kung's clear conclusion that you're wrong that the God of the Quran is different from the God Jesus prayed to?

If you have no response, just say so and I'll stop asking you (it will just show that you are, All Mouth, No Trousers).

Cheers,
Shafique

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