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he's fluent in english, if you do speak to him directly..

ebonics wrote:he's fluent in english, if you do speak to him directly..

Cool - I'll look up the you tube link tonight and will e-mail him.

The first question I'll ask is :

"Do you believe all non-Christians are going to hell as per the Bible?"

I'll start a thread if/when he answers.

Cheers,
Shafique

before you leap into such a question,

i suggest you challenge him that the qura'an contains no contradictions - and is written by "allah" - with no human intervention..

ebonics - I went to You Tube, but could not see the e-mail.

Could you post it here or PM me with it.

Cheers,
Shafique

its in the video

shafique wrote:41.10 refers to 4 days and these include the 2 days of 41.9

Where does it specify the 4 days include the previous mentioned two days?

shafique wrote:so clearly, the spreading out of the earth is not saying that it is flat but that it is an extended land mass which contains mountains, valleys etc.

Common, I said it before. I mean flat in the sense of not being a globe!

Here are some others:

In line with creation and the word day:

In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years.

In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.

What was created first?:

Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven.

Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.


How many angels appeared to Mary?:


In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.

When in history did the jews believe Ezra is the son of God?

Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:41.10 refers to 4 days and these include the 2 days of 41.9

Where does it specify the 4 days include the previous mentioned two days?

The context does - they are both talking about the earth.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:so clearly, the spreading out of the earth is not saying that it is flat but that it is an extended land mass which contains mountains, valleys etc.

Common, I said it before. I mean flat in the sense of not being a globe!

Oh - sorry. Why would you conclude that land mass spread out would mean 'flat earth' and not 'globe'? Aren't the land masses spread out over the surface of the earth?

Apologies - I didn't see any link between the word 'spread' and 'flat earth' so that didn't come to my mind at all. I thought you were saying that the earth isn't flat and even, but contains mountains (hence why all my replies have repeatedly said that the Quran is clear there are mountains etc).

I think it is a stretch to interpret the verses in question as 'the world is flat'- that certainly is not what all the Muslim scientists did, and I don't think there has ever been a 'fatwa' judgement saying that the world is flat.
(Also, strictly speaking this would not be a contradiction in the Quran - just a scientific falsehood )

Flying Dutchman wrote:Here are some others:

In line with creation and the word day:
In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years.
In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.

A simple explanation is that time is relative and not fixed. I think these are metaphorical and contextual - a 'day' for God is a period and say a geological stage/period may be longer than another. However, let me look at what the commentators say.

Flying Dutchman wrote:What was created first?:
Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven.
Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.

Thanks - this is one I'll have to look into and post tonight.

Flying Dutchman wrote:How many angels appeared to Mary?:
In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus
In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.

This is an easy one - only one Angel appeared in the form of a man, but many angels were present. The verses are quite clear on this.

Flying Dutchman wrote:When in history did the jews believe Ezra is the son of God?
Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God

Will look into this as well - wasn't Ezra the prophet that re-wrote the OT? (However, is this a contradiction - or a different view of history? The Quran also has different views of OT events - such as Lot's wife staying behind rather than turning into a pillar of salt)

Cheers,
Shafique

now this Most Definatly belongs here






wow, a sura, came to omar, not muhammad - very selective (got contradiction?)

im going to admit now, i never even heard of this before - this is very profound........

i find it so amusing how god intervened instantly to save muhammad - how many wives did he have again? you didnt answer me the first time.

maybe this explains why muhammad was sex obsessed?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMRslMA90Gk&NR=1

ebonics - do you have shares in youtube?

maybe i own youtube

why dont you stop asking me questions, and answer the questions at hand dear sir?

ebonics wrote:maybe i own youtube

why dont you stop asking me questions, and answer the questions at hand dear sir?

Ebonics, lighten up a bit. Anyways this thread is discussing possible contradictions/inconsistencies in the Quran. What you are doing appears to me as Islam bashing. Show some respect.

flying dutchman, respect where respect is due


the scriptures quoted, neither i, or the man quoting them made them up - this is out of their faith straight - what was called the inexplicable, the cause that made thousands convert..

im not asking for anyone to convert, no sweat off my brow.. but if someone is going to preach that the qur'an contains no contradictions, well please explain the things that are outlined in the religion that claims so..

i dont do religion - religion has caused far too much conflict over the years between poeple and caused too much bloodshed... muslim, christian and jew all caused their own casualties - i want nothing to do with all this... i believe in love and peace of fellow humans, regardless of race and colour...

still awaiting explainations..
thank you.

ebonics wrote:im not asking for anyone to convert, no sweat off my brow.. but if someone is going to preach that the qur'an contains no contradictions, well please explain the things that are outlined in the religion that claims so..
...
still awaiting explainations..
thank you.

As stated in the previous thread - please pick one apparent contradiction and I'll answer it here.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but to my knowledge there are no contradictions in the Quran. I have two apparent contradictions to check out tonight - raised by FD in the post above, so I'll work on those until we hear which particular part of the Quran you are so sure is a contradiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

well in the case where the "wahy" landed on omar, not muhammad, because muhammad was in his house getting attacked by his women for his womanising..

i thought the wahy only landed on muhammad? or is there now another prophet in omar?
so can the wahy land on anyone now? whats stopping me from recieving the next sura?



how is that not a contradiction?

ebonics wrote:well in the case where the "wahy" landed on omar, not muhammad, because muhammad was in his house getting attacked by his women for his womanising..

i thought the wahy only landed on muhammad? or is there now another prophet in omar?
so can the wahy land on anyone now? whats stopping me from recieving the next sura?



how is that not a contradiction?

This is not in the Quran, so is not a contradiction.

Next issue.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique

have you even watched the above?
it is in english


im going to watch it one more time, maybe i was still asleep in the morning and i misunderstood



edit: after watching it one more time - you most definatly have not watched it to give the above comment... watch the video where i say the wahy landed on omar, it has everythin to do with the quran

ebonics wrote:shafique

have you even watched the above?
it is in english


im going to watch it one more time, maybe i was still asleep in the morning and i misunderstood



edit: after watching it one more time - you most definatly have not watched it to give the above comment... watch the video where i say the wahy landed on omar, it has everythin to do with the quran

Sorry, I have not looked any links other than the original ones you posted.

I want to restrict this thread to contradictions within the Quran. If you wish to start a new thread on the compilation/authorship of the Quran - happy to do so. However, I will just end up quoting standard texts to you about how the verses were revealed and memorised, as well as written down. The primary means of preservation was memorisation.

The myths about 'satanic verses' 'hidden/forgotten verses' etc are just baseless fairy tales - to put it politely

If one of the links is about Quranic verses, I'm happy to view it tonight -just let me know which one.

Cheers,
Shafique

dude give me a break..

watch the 2nd last link first before replying, you're insulting me otherwise.


it has nothing to do with satan or satanic verses.. watch then comment.

im assuming you didnt watch any of the others in the other thread either, i found english ones especially for you....

PS - if the moderator thinks im too much, please say so. i will cease completely.

Ebonics, why don´t do us a favor and quote the verses here that contain a contradiction according to you. Then it´s much easier to follow for everybody and saves a lot of time...

Flying Dutchman wrote:
In line with creation and the word day:

In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years.

In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.

Phew - you had me worried there

70.4 reads
"The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years"

22.47
And they demand of thee to hasten on the punishment, but Allah will never break His promise. And verily, a day with thy Lord is as a thousand years of your reckoning.

32.5
He will plan (His) Ordinance from the heaven unto the earth, then will it go up to Him in a day the duration of which is a thousand years according as you reckon.

For me 70.4 is a specific span of time for a specific event. 22.47 and 32.5 talk in more general terms of what a day for God is compared to man. The commentaries say even this 1000 years is a general term.

As 70.4 does not say 'one day for God is like a 50,000 years' but talks about a period for the ascension of angels and Spirits, I do not think the verses are contradictory.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
What was created first?:

Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven.

Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.

2.29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He turned towards the heavens, and He perfected them as seven heavens; and He has perfect knowledge of all things.

49.27? Ch 49 only has 19 verses - so this must be a typo. Anyway, I presume that there is another set of verses which say heavens were created first.

For me 2.29 does not say that Heaven was created second - but that God turned his attention to it and perfected it after creating the earth.

41.10 talks about the creation of the earth, then
41.11 reads:
Then He turned to the heaven and while it was (something like) smoke, and said to it and to the earth; 'Come ye both of you (in obediance), willingly or unwillingly.' They said, 'We come willingly'.

Now, the earth and universe can't speak, so the commentary for this verse is
"..signifies that everything in the universe is subject to certain laws which it obeys and according to which it works. It has no discretion. It is man alone who has been endowed with volition or discretion.."


I think the descriptions are metaphorical and also a bit vague - so I can't see a clear contradiction here. Heaven is not said to have been created first or second - but perfected second. This could mean that the creation of the earth was God's primary motive - and this is backed up by Hadith which say that the whole universe was created by God for the sake of humans in general.

Perhaps when we get the proper reference to the verses saying Heaven was created first, I can comment further.

Flying Dutchman wrote:When in history did the jews believe Ezra is the son of God?

Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God

9.30
And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say 'the Messiah is the son of Allah', that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah's curse be on them! How they are turned away.

Commentary:
Uzair or Ezra lived in the fifth century BC. He was a descendant of Seraiah, the high priest, and, being himself a member of the priestly order, was known as Ezra, the Priest. He was one of the most important personages of his day and exercised a far-reaching influence on the development of Judaism. He was especially honoured among the Prophets of Israel. The Jews of Medina and a Jewish sect in Hadramaut believed him to be the son of God. The Rabbis associate his name with several important institutions. Renan has remarked in the preface of his 'History of the People of Israel' that the definite constitution of Judaism may be dated only from the time of Ezra. In Rabbinical literature he was considered worthy of being the vehicle of the Law, had it not been already given through Moses. He worked with Nehemiah and died at the age of 120 in Babylonia (Jew. Encl and Enc. Bib)

Also, a number of articles on the subject are on the web, this one has quotes from Orientalists and Ency. Judaica:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... /ezra.html

So, in answer to your questions the Jews in Arabia in the period around the revelation of the Quran had this belief.

Also, this makes sense. The history (and Quran) records that among the 'hypocrites' were many Jews. A group of them joined Islam in the morning, then left in the evening hoping to cause doubt and take people away from Islam (the Quran talks about this specific sequence of events).

So at the time the Jews were there and were critiquing the religion and the Quran. Therefore, if this verse was not true (that Jews called Ezra son of God) - they would have pointed this out at the time and made a big fuss of this (as a proof that God couldn't be revealing something that is so verifiably wrong).

However, this is not one of the objections raised by the Jews of the time.

I suspect that this verse has only been questioned by Christian opponents of Islam - and they raise it as an example of a contradiction/error.

I therefore do not think this is a contradiction (but I have to admit I only looked into this tonight - so if there is more info out there, I'm happy to review).

I'm sorry ebonics, I haven't got time to go to your you-tube link tonight - but if you can type out the verses in question (just the references will do - and why they are contradictions), we can examine those here.

Flying Dutchman - what is your view of the claims of contradictions that I think I've shown aren't contradictions after all. Do you think (like I do) that they were put together by those wishing to discredit the Quran (as opposed to scholars)?

Cheers,
Shafique

Okay, here is a small recap on my side. Some explanations I found very creative. I didn´t want to get in a yes - no - yes - no kind of discussion. Any objective person reading the verses about alcohol finds it contradictory. I did raise my eyebrows that you agreed that seamen eminates from between the loins and ribs. If somebody read the verses about creation, that person would say earth was created in 8 days. The same for the order of creation. That said, I agree with you that there are cases that what seems at first as a contradiction, doesn´t have to be a contradiction with some creativity.
Sure, I agree with you that possible contradictions are used to discredit the Quran.
Let me finish my posting in the thread that I couldn´t come up with clear and starightforward contradictions in the Quran.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Okay, here is a small recap on my side. Some explanations I found very creative. I didn´t want to get in a yes - no - yes - no kind of discussion. Any objective person reading the verses about alcohol finds it contradictory.

Let me thank you for a civilised and enlightening discussion. I appreciate that we did not descend into a yes-no debate. I agree people can judge the explanations I and reach their conclusions about contradictions/abrogations.

For me, it was a learning experience as well for some of the quotes.

However, I am also satisfied to note that none of the 'questionable' verses were dealing with the core religious teachings of Islam - but were of issues of scientific reliability or sequence of events or descriptions of nature.

It reinforces my view that the Quran is clear about how humans who choose Islam for their way of life need to interact with God and with other creations - which is what religion is. Whether we believe that the message is from God, or whether we choose to follow the teachings of the Quran, is a personal choice.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I did raise my eyebrows that you agreed that seamen eminates from between the loins and ribs.

I resisted posting the composition of semen before - as I thought correcting the initial translation you had (which did not mention 'loin' but said 'backbone', I think) resolved the situation.

Given the following:
Composition of human semen

The components of semen come from two sources: sperm, and "seminal plasma". Seminal plasma, in turn, is produced by contributions from the seminal vesicle, prostate, and bulbourethral glands.

Sperm is from testicles (in loins), the seminal plasma is from glands within the body. So, to my mind, 'between the loins and ribs' is a pretty good description!
(sorry, couldn't resist a final word.. but I'll let your final words speak for themselves):

Flying Dutchman wrote:If somebody read the verses about creation, that person would say earth was created in 8 days. The same for the order of creation. That said, I agree with you that there are cases that what seems at first as a contradiction, doesn´t have to be a contradiction with some creativity.
Sure, I agree with you that possible contradictions are used to discredit the Quran.

Let me finish my posting in the thread that I couldn´t come up with clear and starightforward contradictions in the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

Qur’an 018.047
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.

Wouldn't this verse imply that the earth is flat?

In this verse, mountains are created to prevent the earth from shaking.

Qur’an 016.015
And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

Qur’an 078.007
And the mountains as pegs?

Again, mountains function as stakes to hold the ground together.

valkyrie wrote:

Qur’an 018.047
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.

Wouldn't this verse imply that the earth is flat?

Yes - but the opening words are clear 'one day' God will remove the mountains. Future tense. (But doesn't say the earth is flat and not a globe)

valkyrie wrote:In this verse, mountains are created to prevent the earth from shaking.

Qur’an 016.015
And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

Yes. I take this to mean that if there weren't mountains the movements of tectonic plates would cause more earth quakes than at present - i.e. in the (distant) past there were many more earth quakes than now. This is in line with my superficial knowledge of geology.

valkyrie wrote:

Qur’an 078.007
And the mountains as pegs?

Again, mountains function as stakes to hold the ground together.

See previous explanation.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:Ebonics, why don´t do us a favor and quote the verses here that contain a contradiction according to you. Then it´s much easier to follow for everybody and saves a lot of time...

lucky i took a day off then, you maybe in luck - if i find the right resources i need to quote everything in english.

i will make a seperate thread to this, if shafique wants me to... but i will discuss it here first.


Sura 25, verse 24

[54] It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things).


before i get into this... i thought man was made of dust?

now lets go to sahih el kortoby - as authenticated by Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance.

this is the link for the tafseer..

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispT ... 25&nAya=54

now the link basically outlines a small progression of events.

its widely known and accepted, that if a muslim has a child outside of marriage, it is not considered his child, but the child of adultry.

this child would have no rights under islamic shari'a, no ties whatsoever, no inheritance, no ties to the biological dad, because the qur'an says, its not his dad - it is the son of adultry.

al kortoby then goes to explain:

the marriage and relationship from that marriage is the only way that relationships get established between all humans.

he says, ibn el araby said, the nasab, is the mix between the male and female water legally under islamic law - it is not approved otherwise.

if it is in adultry - it would be just a creation - no relation... if you were born in adultry - the man that concieved you is not your dad.

ibn el araby continues to say..................

because it is out of a legal relationship, it doesnt go under the word of god, "it is forbidden for you, your mothers and your daughters" - meaning it doesnt fall under that clause of the qur'an.....

so if you have a daughter from a woman that is not your wife, that daughter is ok for you to have a relationship with - because she is not your daughter....


he says that word for word........ just so there is no confusion

his closing statement...

"fa la sehran, shar3an" - there is no relationship under shari3ya

"fa la yoharam zena be bent om, wala om bent" - so it is ok for you to sleep with the daughter of that mother, and her mother..



i am baffled, bamboozled, and everything in between...

ebonics wrote:
i am baffled, bamboozled, and everything in between...

Yes, I can see that.

Where in the Quran does it say Muslim men can sleep with their illegitimate daughters? Do you really think Muslims go round, commit adultery so they can father daughters out of wedlock and then have relations with them?

As for the verses about creation - you are right, man is created from minerals and water (clay) that is the origins of all life. The Quran also refers to the creation of an embryo from a fertilised egg, and also makes reference to the development of the foetus.

The Quran also talks about what happens after death.

Cheers,
Shafique