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Point is, it is supposed to be the work of satan. Still, there are a lot of benefits using alcohol, when you use it in a responsible manner (would satan create such a thing). Do you agree that alcohol gives more benefits than bad things, if you use it correctly?

shafique wrote:
ebonics - I can't see why you think it is a contradiction for the Quran to say it is banning something that is on the whole (but not completely) bad. Seems very logical to me, and ahead of its time when it comes to pointing out some benefit in alcohol.

Cheers,
Shafique

saying that alcohol is the work of satan, and saying that alcohol has benifits for humans, is saying satan can do work that is benefitial to humans.


which contradicts every other saying thereof about satan in the quran...

its quite clear as day really.

ebonics wrote:saying that alcohol is the work of satan, and saying that alcohol has benifits for humans, is saying satan can do work that is benefitial to humans.

which contradicts every other saying thereof about satan in the quran...

its quite clear as day really.

Good try ebonics.

Actually does raise an interesting distinction between the view of Satan in Chrisitianity and Islam. Christian tend to view satan as pure evil.

ebonics, do you know how satan is portrayed in the Quran (for you to say that saying some good in alcohol is contradictory)?

Cheers,
Shafique

all you have to say is that the quran says satan does good for humans.... and you can put my claim down the toilet from there.

so does the quran say that satan can do good for humans?

ebonics wrote:all you have to say is that the quran says satan does good for humans.... and you can put my claim down the toilet from there.

so does the quran say that satan can do good for humans?

Can I quote from Genesis to show that Satan tells the truth and God lies according to the Bible? Compare what both said would happen if Adam and Eve ate the apple in the opening pages of the Bible!

As for your challenge above, please re-read the Quranic passages quoted and let me know what particular concept you having trouble with - that Alcohol is bad and is satan's handiwork, but has some good in it. How is this different from Heroin which has some medicinal benefit?


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:all you have to say is that the quran says satan does good for humans.... and you can put my claim down the toilet from there.

so does the quran say that satan can do good for humans?

Can I quote from Genesis to show that Satan tells the truth and God lies according to the Bible? Compare what both said would happen if Adam and Eve ate the apple in the opening pages of the Bible!

As for your challenge above, please re-read the Quranic passages quoted and let me know what particular concept you having trouble with - that Alcohol is bad and is satan's handiwork, but has some good in it. How is this different from Heroin which has some medicinal benefit?


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, dont weasel about the question.... this isnt about the bible we're talking, the bible isnt the one saying that alcohol is the work of satan and it could be benefitial to you, and i know what the bible says about saten..

so back to my question:

does the quran say that satan can do good for humans? not the bible.


in regarding to this:

please re-read the Quranic passages quoted and let me know what particular concept you having trouble with - that Alcohol is bad and is satan's handiwork, but has some good in it. How is this different from Heroin which has some medicinal benefit?

we've established that:

alcohol could be of benefit to humans, but the bad far outweighs the good.
alcohol is the work of the devil
so the devil can be of benefit to humans..

and that is contradictory in ones self.

unless the quran says that satan is of benefit to humans, so does it or not?

ebonics, what is confusing about this Quranic verse?

5v9 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

How does it contradict:
Chapter 2 v219
THEY WILL ASK YOU CONCERNING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND GAMBLING. SAY: IN EACH OF THERE LIES SERIOUS VICE, AS WELL AS SOME BENEFITS FOR MANKIND, YET THEIR SIN IS GREATER THAN THEIR USEFULNESS (S2:V219)

I can't see the contradiction, unless you believe that Satan is purely evil and cannot use something contains some benefit.

PS - is it bacon withdrawal symptoms that's causing this argumentative streak? For me it is usually boredom

Cheers,
Shafique

fyi, bacon is available at abela supermarket, a huge pig product and bacon section there... so there goes that theory.


and apart from that, i believe flying dutchman raised the same question in the last page..


its a simple yes or no answer, and you're beating around the bush


the above tells me, which also goes with your previous explaination:

alcohol could be of benefit to humans, but the bad far outweighs the good.
alcohol is the work of the devil
so the devil can be of benefit to humans..

and that is contradictory in ones self.

unless the quran says that satan is of benefit to humans, so does it or not?

simple yes or no answer shafique, does the quran say, that satan can be of benefit to humans, yes he can, or no he cant?

im happy with whatever answer you give, im just curious.

ebonics wrote:fyi, bacon is available at abela supermarket, a huge pig product and bacon section there... so there goes that theory.

May be it is too much bacon then?

Satan can use things with some good in them for evil purposes - simple. If a hammer is used to kill someone, it does not mean that the hammer can't be used for useful purpose and vice versa.

Heroin in early stages is all good - gives people a sense of euphoria. It gets addictive very quickly - but if used once, won't have any harmful long term effects. Doesn't change my view that Heroin is evil.

I'm not sure now whether you are just arguing for arguements sake or just a bit sore over the 'Nikah' issue where you have so far refused to admit that 'neek etc' don't come from 'Nikah' as you said it did.

But hey - it's good to talk!

Cheers,
Shafique

right, so ill take that as satan can do good for humans.

thats all. - see it wasnt hard.

where you have so far refused to admit that 'neek etc' don't come from 'Nikah' as you said it did.

there's enough evidence presented by my behalf for everyone to make their own mind up on who's correct and who's in denial - including a confession on your behalf that it does mean penetrate...

we both agreed on that.

See, it wasn't hard to reach agreement!



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I work in life insurance and one of my specialities is critical illness - which includes cancers.

So, how would you treat people who drink one glass one wine a day, would you consider giving them favourable conditions (opposite to people eating pork)?
This was my intention when pointing out that alcohol prevents cancer. Btw, congrats with the agreement with ebo.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:I work in life insurance and one of my specialities is critical illness - which includes cancers.

So, how would you treat people who drink one glass one wine a day, would you consider giving them favourable conditions (opposite to people eating pork)?
This was my intention when pointing out that alcohol prevents cancer. Btw, congrats with the agreement with ebo.

We have to work with averages when pooling risks. Those that disclose that they drink one glass of wine as a group will tend to have worse mortality than a group of tee-totallers.

If we were sure that people only had one glass of wine, then those groups would (all other things being equal) should have better mortality than those who don't drink, or drink a lot.

However, the biggest factors for mortality in applicants for insurance in a normal country are age, sex, smoker status, height/weight/exercise and then drinking amounts. Smoking, drinking and weight are the biggest factors that are 'controllable'.

For practical purposes most territories will charge standard rates for moderate drinkers and teetotallers, but will rate those with symptoms of alcohol abuse (as they do die quicker) - the higher the amount of cover you go for, the more tests that insurers will do.

Also bear in mind that the health benefits of alcohol are also present in other foods - fruit and veg typically, if you are generally fit drinking wine will not make your heart fitter or protect you. Those that are furrying up their arteries, there is some evidence that wine in particular has some beneficial effects when taken in moderation.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:However, the biggest factors for mortality in applicants for insurance in a normal country are age, love, smoker status, height/weight/exercise and then drinking amounts.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:However, the biggest factors for mortality in applicants for insurance in a normal country are age, love, smoker status, height/weight/exercise and then drinking amounts.

It's all your fault, you lulled me into a sense of complacency when I found out you could say sexual!

My understanding of the objective of satan is to lure people to the dark side.
With this in mind, if you were satan, and you wanted people to drink something that had harmful sideaffects, would it not make sense to make it attractive in other ways? The number of people that drink alcohol is directly proportional to the number of people comitting alcohol induced sins.
Which brings me to another question that I am now unsure about.
Should it be a sin to drink alcohol, OR is it only a sin if you commit another sin due to the affects of alcohol?

benwj wrote:My understanding of the objective of satan is to lure people to the dark side.
With this in mind, if you were satan, and you wanted people to drink something that had harmful sideaffects, would it not make sense to make it attractive in other ways? The number of people that drink alcohol is directly proportional to the number of people comitting alcohol induced sins.
Which brings me to another question that I am now unsure about.
Should it be a sin to drink alcohol, OR is it only a sin if you commit another sin due to the affects of alcohol?

Well, before Islam drinking alcohol was not a sin - but with (as muslims believe) the revelation of the final, universal religion alcohol was banned.

I personally think that man had evolved to the stage where alcohol's harm outweighed its good. Prior to the 7th century, distilling of alcohol was not that common such that everyone would/could drink to excess. But by the time Islam was revealed, wine was more readily available. Also, in prior times wine, weak beer etc could be the only way to get clean water - there may have been medicinal properties from it that were later superseded by other medicinal herbs/compounds.

But at the end of the day, for Muslims, the Quran says that from the point of the revelation onwards it became a sin to drink - so drinking alcohol was not always sinful.

Personally, I also see this injunction as a safeguard for society as well as personal health. The number 1 drug problem in the UK and US is alcohol and the cost to society is in the 10s of billions of dollars/pounds - and I think the cost to lives - both in deaths and general misery/abuse is a much higher cost.

If you look at the other vice mentioned with alcohol - gambling - you can see the same evil effects - offers some limited enjoyment, but causes so much more pain for society.

The above are my own personal views - so I may be mistaken on some of the historical facts (before ebonics takes me to task )

It is also interesting to note that prior to Islam the Arab culture was one of heavy drinking and womanising. To have a person reform the Arabs and make them give up these traits is recognised by all historians as one of the great achievements of Muhammad, pbuh.

(And yes, I admit that +some+ muslims have reverted to pre-Islamic vices)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It is also interesting to note that prior to Islam the Arab culture was one of heavy drinking and womanising. To have a person reform the Arabs and make them give up these traits is recognised by all historians as one of the great achievements of Muhammad, pbuh.

I already stated my admiration for warning people against the usage of alcohol and he succeeded! But Mohammed stopping womanising??? Twelve wifes wasn´t it, inclusing a 9 years old (at most) and a daughter in law married to an adopted son? You must have expected this reply...

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:It is also interesting to note that prior to Islam the Arab culture was one of heavy drinking and womanising. To have a person reform the Arabs and make them give up these traits is recognised by all historians as one of the great achievements of Muhammad, pbuh.

I already stated my admiration for warning people against the usage of alcohol and he succeeded! But Mohammed stopping womanising??? Twelve wifes wasn´t it, inclusing a 9 years old (at most) and a daughter in law married to an adopted son? You must have expected this reply...

Indeed - it was revolutionary to limit wives to only 4 and require marriage before s.e.x.

But there was also the small point of giving women rights to own property, divorce and inheritance.

Cheers,
Shafique

only 4

shafique wrote:and require marriage before s.e.x.

I've never heard any mulsims preach this.

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:and require marriage before s.e.x.

I've never heard any mulsims preach this.

Have you heard muslims preach that fornication is ok?

(Islam isn't the first religion to preach that fornication is a sin, but it was revolutionary for the Arabs)

It reminds me of a joke - you always pay for s.ex - only marriage is more costly than the other options!


[And, I emphasise, its a joke!]

Cheers,
Shafique

muslims fornicate with the pretence that they can go and do a hajj at the end of the year, and all their fornication is then forgiven... saudi's are the biggest offenders when it comes to that practice.



i never quite figured out the whole paying to get married practice, what exactly is the dowry for?

of course marriage costs anyone, between the ring and the wedding etc, but if you couldnt afford all that, you can just marry by tying a string around each others fingers, costing you about 10cm in yarn....

Shafique, I think your choice of words is a bit awkward. I heard of religions teaching no s.e.x. before marriage. But, saying marriage is required for s.e.x., sounds like the main reason to marry is s.e.x. As I am not a native Engligh speaker I stand corrected...but this is how it comes across to me.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Shafique, I think your choice of words is a bit awkward. I heard of religions teaching no s.e.x. before marriage. But, saying marriage is required for s.e.x., sounds like the main reason to marry is s.e.x. As I am not a native Engligh speaker I stand corrected...but this is how it comes across to me.

Agree - choice of words was 'clunky', I was trying to find a diplomatic way of saying that the prevalent Arabic culture was one of rampant womanising (in all its forms) before Islam. I was emphasising the regulation of sexual relations that came about as a direct consequence of the emphasis of marriage - but chose to represent this in a (deliberately/mischievously) provocative choice of words!

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:muslims fornicate with the pretence that they can go and do a hajj at the end of the year, and all their fornication is then forgiven... saudi's are the biggest offenders when it comes to that practice.

Wow. I always was in awe of Catholics who could sin and then go and confess and do a few hail marys! But this one takes the biscuit!

I guess we have bigger hypocrites than you do

ebonics wrote:i never quite figured out the whole paying to get married practice, what exactly is the dowry for?

Man pays woman, woman has some security. Actually, it should be - woman sets price, man pays, woman has some security.

ebonics wrote:of course marriage costs anyone, between the ring and the wedding etc, but if you couldnt afford all that, you can just marry by tying a string around each others fingers, costing you about 10cm in yarn....

I can tell that you aren't married yet.



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:muslims fornicate with the pretence that they can go and do a hajj at the end of the year, and all their fornication is then forgiven... saudi's are the biggest offenders when it comes to that practice.

Wow. I always was in awe of Catholics who could sin and then go and confess and do a few hail marys! But this one takes the biscuit!

of course that is a load of horse sh!t...

if someone does sin with the intention of "hail marying" it off - no hail mary is going to save them.. as retarded as the saudi's.



and yes im not married, but engaged to be so...

i guess women these days have their own securities and independance - they have their own jobs and earn just as much as men do, hell some women earn more than their partners.. there was a show on that, males in masculinity crisis due to thier women wearing the pants in the relationship... quality stuff.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:Wow. I always was in awe of Catholics who could sin and then go and confess and do a few hail marys! But this one takes the biscuit!

of course that is a load of horse sh!t...

if someone does sin with the intention of "hail marying" it off - no hail mary is going to save them.. as retarded as the saudi's.



and yes im not married, but engaged to be so...

i guess women these days have their own securities and independance - they have their own jobs and earn just as much as men do, hell some women earn more than their partners.. there was a show on that, males in masculinity crisis due to thier women wearing the pants in the relationship... quality stuff.

Again, I find myself agreeing with you (I agree both examples are horse doo doo).

Note that Muhammad's, pbuh, first wife was successful business woman who was richer than he was (he did some work for her before she proposed marriage to him) - so women working have been around for some time!

Cheers,
Shafique

In India they also have a dowry, but its paid to the groom (´s family). Isn´t a brideswealth paid to the bride?
Apologies if it is a stupid question, but I always thought per definition a dowry is paid to the groom...

Flying Dutchman wrote:In India they also have a dowry, but its paid to the groom (´s family). Isn´t a brideswealth paid to the bride?
Apologies if it is a stupid question, but I always thought per definition a dowry is paid to the groom...

Yes, in India the groom receives the money.

Yes, you are also right that Dowry usually means the payment by the wifes side of the family to the grooms. This also (in a way) lives on in the custom of European (well, at least British) weddings where the father of the bride is expected to pay for a lot of it.

However, in Islam the man needs to pay the woman a sum. This is what we tend to loosely (and perhaps wrongly) call the dowry in Muslim marriages. The term is Arabic I think is 'Mehr' - at least that is what I know it as.

The sum is announced at the wedding ceremony and the intention is that it is an amount that the woman needs to receive and is solely hers to do with as she wants (on divorce, the man has to ensure that she has at least this amount with her, as well as any other maintenance etc)

Similarly, under Islamic law, a womans earnings are hers alone. She can choose to use it for the household expenses or share it with her husband, but it is her choice. By converse, the husbands earnings are not his own totally, but he has to provide for the household and wife from any earnings he has.

Edit - I was using the term Dowry wrong, I should have said 'Dower':
A dowry (also known as trousseau) is the money, goods, or estate that a woman brings to her husband in marriage.[1]

The opposite direction, property given to the bride by the groom, is called dower or mahr. Normally the bride would be entitled to her dowry in event of her widowhood, prior to the evolution of her dower rights; so common was this that the terms "dowry" and "dower" are sometimes confused.



Cheers,
Shafique