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I dunno if there are actual muthajiba *veiled* models.
But i wanted to know ur point of view on that.

Wat would u think if u saw a veiled woman modelling?
*keepin in mind that she wears decent*

Do u think that contridicts islam?

As a concept in itself, vanity is against Islam. In addition, Islam forbids using women for show.

Now applied to the modelling concept, you can see how it would contradicting the teachings of Islam.

Modelling is a demonstration of vanity, after all thats what showing off beauty is. In addition, modelling female fashions means putting women on stage to strut around to show a certain fashion.

The preceeding paragraph explains paragraph number two.

I can only speak for the Arab world, Islamic Africa, and the subcontinent area when I say that there are no veiled models for that very reason.

Funny you brought that up-according to someone close to me, dying your hair was vain and thus she didn't. Wouldn't make-up constitute vanity as well then?

so who owns a mirror? any muslims?, not to be a smart ass but isnt grooming ones self infront of a mirror a form of vanity?

No problems with having models in Islam.

Islam says that there should not be free mixing of sexes (genders - the forum seems to translate s£xes as "fun") - but there is nothing wrong about having women modelling clothes or make up, for example,for other women.

I guess there isn't anything wrong either with women modelling Abaya's ... ?

Cleanliness and neatness are also part of Islamic culture and tradition. Keeping one's clothes and body clean are enjoined on all muslims and happened in Islamic societies long before washing became fashionable in other societies.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Shaf this appears to contradict Liban.

Is there an element of "interpetation" within Islam?

GAB wrote:Funny you brought that up-according to someone close to me, dying your hair was vain and thus she didn't. Wouldn't make-up constitute vanity as well then?

Altering one's physical appearance is against Quranic teachings. Like for example tatoos are forbidden in Islam, so its non-essential plastic surgery, and dying hair.

richmc wrote:so who owns a mirror? any muslims?, not to be a smart a#s but isnt grooming ones self infront of a mirror a form of vanity?

Islam requirs cleanliness and proper appearance (ie. not looking like a bum if you can afford not to)... But showing off is forbidden too. You need to walk a fine line.

A mirror is not forbidden as long as you are not using it to look unislamic, ie. to dress provocativly or excessive make-up (which in themselves is anti-Quran teachings).

arniegang wrote:Shaf this appears to contradict Liban.

Is there an element of "interpetation" within Islam?

No contradictions. I am referring to the tradional sense of modeling like Armani or Vogue models. Meaning those modeling in front of both genders. That is forbidden.

If there are a bunch of women in a women only event and they are modeling new designs for fun between each other, then no, that is not forbidden as long as its not vulgar... But vulgarity in Islam can vary from cultural vulgarity

Arnie - my post was half in jest - Liban is right, the notion of models as we understand them is not appropriate in Islam, as men and women aren't allowed to look at each other freely without modest dress etc. Muslim women do look at what other muslim and other women wear - that is a universal trait of women. There are women only fashion parades etc,and therefore by definition those doing the modelling are 'models'.. but this is in women only company.

Liban - are you sure that Islam forbids altering appearance in terms of dyeing hair?

Is there not a hadith that the Prophet, pbuh, advised a companion who dyed his beard black to use Henna instead to dye the beard?

In terms of vanity - the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used to advise all his followers to trim their beards and keep them neat. It was said that the neatness of appearance of the muslims distinguished them from the other dwellers of Arabia in general, and the Jews in particular - who all kept long beards.

If I have misunderstood the teachings of Islam, I hope you can give me the references to correct my understanding.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Ok, but what about make up etc in public and those henna tatto things on face and hands/arms etc??

Which is why the ifrst ever Muslim Miss UK got so much flack!

Chocoholic wrote:Which is why the ifrst ever Muslim Miss UK got so much flack!

can u elaborate and provide her pics?

Sorry I made a mistake, she was actually crowned Miss England. Don't know how to add pics, but follow this link for the BBC News website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4212412.stm

Great responses Liban and Shafique!
It is funny as the person I am referring to actually used to pull out her grey hairs! Ouch-which I kinda saw as a contradiction and was also into Henna for the dyeing of nails (this was also more of a tradition amongst Malays).
This makes me think of few other things too that are notably different from most religions (I think we are all well aware of no pork, no alcohol, no gambling). A girl/woman is not allowed into a Mosque when menstrating as it is seen as unclean (as is my understanding). Also, generally men pray together at the bottom and woman above (in Mosques I've seen but I haven't been to one here as I am unsure how "sticky beaking" would be interpreted). It is also my understanding that Muslims should attempt to learn Arabic-this would be in part to be able to read the Quran, wouldn't it? However, the thing about this, is in places like M'sia and Indonesia you would find very few people who can speak and read Arabic.
I think the differences between Muslims on the observance of certain things depends on interpretation. In my eyes a person who wears an abaya and one that does not, does not necessarily mean one is more religious or a more dedicated Muslim than the other.
The thing about tattoos is interesting-if a person, non-Muslim, was to get a tattoo in Arabic would that be seen as an affront?
I think this is quite interesting as people make assumptions about all religions ie if you are Catholic you must be like this or you eat fish on Fridays-you get my drift. Whereas there is that own personal value system embodied into everyones "faith"-so religion effectively varies from person to person.
Sorry, a bit of a ramble but I think it is an interesting topic!

Liban....

I love you dude for being fair...

if you were a girl i would.... .. or u know what... having you as a brother is better

Cheers mate

Well, to be honest, its permanent alterations that are forbidden.

Henna is not permanent and as such is not banned.

I hope I clarified this better.

Intimacy... awwww

GAB,

Tatooing is forbidden in Islam - seen as a defacement of your body, I think.

Women have always 'prettyfied' themselves and this is totally allowed in Islam. This extends to make-up, jewellry and fine clothes. Men in Islam aren't allowed to wear silk and gold - seen as luxuries in the past. One Imam explained to me that this was partly to leave these niceties for the women - men being generally the breadwinners, could generally take all the 'bling' for themselves, but this way these items were reserved for women.

(The other 'spirit' of the injunction is that Muslims shouldn't be ostentatious - interesting when we look at the lifestyles of some of the 'locals' in the Gulf! Contrast this with the humble existence of the Prophet, who even when he was the ruler of Arabia still slept on the floor on a straw mattress and when he passed away had no furniture in his room and only dates in his house for food (if I remember correctly) )

On the question of attire - Islam does not specify the abaya or burqa (or the dishdasha, for that matter). What it specifies are the general rules - that both men and women cover their private parts and lower their gazes. Women are instructed to additionally cover their heads and bosoms. The covering of the face is not mandatory.

The differences in implementation of these instructions is cultural. African Muslims will have colourful clothes and headdresses, Indians will wear a shawl/dupatta over their head, some Arabs cover the mouth, others don't. Indonesians, Malays, Southern Chinese, Khazaks, Bosnians etc etc all wear their traditional dress and comply with Islamic dress codes. That is the beauty of our, i.e. human, diversity.

The Abaya and Dishdasha are more to do with the climate and tradtional dress than with Islam. Covering the nose and mouth is what you do in the desert!

The Quran talks of women wearing jewelry - and only enjoins them not to defeat the purpose of covering up by making jangling/ringing noises when they walk to draw attention to themselves (the equivalent of sashaying around in a mini-skirt, I guess )

All Islam requires is that this beautification is done for the benefit of the husband and close family, in terms of menfolk. When women are amongst women, they are like women everywhere and will similarly want to present themselves as best they can - and boy can women princess about other women!!

(My wife has a wardrobe full of 'nothing to wear' - something all men of all religions can probably relate to!! )



Wasalaam,
Shafique

shafique wrote:. Men in Islam aren't allowed to wear silk and gold - seen as luxuries in the past. Wasalaam,
Shafique

Hi Shafique, or anyone else, I always knew about the gold and silk but I was wondering if you could comment further, I've seen a lot of wedding rings on local/Arab/Muslim men, most not being gold in color. Forgive my ignorance but what is the Islamic stand on this? I've heard that in many ways it is worse because it is mimicking other religions beliefs.

Looking forward to your comments,
Regards

Fayz,

Weddings in Islam are meant to be simple affairs - the ceremony itself (Nikka) is a very quick ceremony where the announcement is made in public of the marriage and the amount of money that the groom is paying over to the bride. The groom and the bride's representative are asked for their consent and that's it.

After the marriage is consummated the groom needs to hold a feast and invite as many people as his means will allow to celebrate and make public the marriage.

Everything else is cultural and optional.

Wedding rings etc are neither forbidden or encouraged. They are relatively modern practices. (Incidentally, did you know that diamond engagement rings were invented by De Beers in the 20th century and are one of the most successful advertising campaigns in history - because no one realises that they have been manipulated and assume that diamonds are the natural/historic choice for rings. They then came up with the slogan 'diamonds are forever' to discourage second hand sales - which they would not be in control of - and then the concept of 'eternity rings' when fewer people were getting married. .. but I digress)

Islam forbids men wearing gold or silk, but does not forbid other jewellry. The Holy Prophet, pbuh, had a signet ring which he used to seal letters with - as he could not write - the seal would be of hot wax into which the ring would be pressed.

I choose not to wear a wedding band (I don't actually have one), my wife has has engagement ring and wedding bands). Men can choose to wear wedding bands as their custom or preference takes them - only it can't be gold.

I hope that sheds a little more light on the situation - but please ask if you have any more questions.

Liban - thanks for clarifying that it is permanent alteration that is frowned upon, that ties in with what I understood. Henna isn't permanent, but then again hair dyes aren't either.... I have a few grey hairs that may need dyeing soon..!

Wasalaam,
Shafique

The Abaya and Dishdasha are more to do with the climate and tradtional dress than with Islam. Covering the nose and mouth is what you do in the desert!

Actually that was my understanding.
The other thing about the gold and silk intrigues me-it is a long time since I've seen wedding photos of friends, family etc who are Muslim but I am pretty sure with Malays and if I am not mistaken Indonesians songket is worn. This is a beautiful, hand woven cloth, woven with gold thread going through it which I am positive should be actual gold but rarely is now and the the other threads are silk(I think!!). This is a Malay tradition. Weddings are pretty flamboyant, not understated! Kind of interesting- my whole understanding of Islam and Muslim traditions stems from living with a Malay Muslim family which obviously follows some different traditions!

Tatooing is forbidden in Islam - seen as a defacement of your body, I think.

Actually didn't know that until I came here! Still can anyone answer this if a tattoo was done in Arabic is that bad?

When women are amongst women, they are like women everywhere and will similarly want to present themselves as best they can - and boy can women princess about other women!!

No comment!!

Thanks Shaf that helps me understand things better.

For the tattooing, i think it is more to do with the permanent alteration of your body then what is actually on the tattoo. I’m guessing for the same reason boob and nose jobs are out, although they are probably the biggest business in Lebanon, hehehehe.

But seriously for a sec, I’ve heard that altering appearance is a no no, but lets say if you have cancer and loose a br3ast and choose to have it “replaced”, what is Islam’s view on that? I’ve heard that in this case it is okay, but curious to hear your comments.

Fayz,

From a common sense perspective (which is a concept in Islam - "Ijtehad" - to use knowledge to extrapolate to situations not directly addressed), reconstructive surgery is ok, as is the use of prosthetics.

Islam requires that all reasonable measures are taken to preserve life - eating of pork and carrion, for example, is allowed if it is the only way to survive.

Islamic scholars have ruled that blood infusions and organ transplants are legal within Islam. Taken in this vein, prosthetics would also be ok.

In Islam, the main point should always be 'intention' and this, I find, is a good guide in most circumstances.

GAB - weddings do tend to be grand affairs, each culture has different ways of celebrating weddings. These are fitted around the core Islamic wedding ceremony and this is the way it is meant to be. As for Malay clothes being made of silk - I don't know, but the injunction forbidding silk is well known and therefore practicing muslim me would not wear silk shirts. Many would not wear silk ties, although I personally do have silk ties - there is no agreement on this in my own family!

Cheers,
Shafique

good stuff, thanks for confirming that for me. I have much to learn.

shaf

what is carrion?

Carrion has nothing to do with hand luggage!

The dictionary defn is :


car·ri·on (kăr'ē-ən) pronunciation

noun: Dead and decaying flesh.

adjective:
1. Of or similar to dead and decaying flesh.
2. Feeding on such flesh.


Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf your humour is far to subtle for Moi

Very interesting! I've always admired that in Islam one must take car of one's own body - keeping it as clean and unadulterated as possible. Even if one is religious or not - the body is a pretty amazing thing that shouldn't be abused and taken for granted. Yes, I know - easier said than done!

Modifying one's looks (unless you are a victim of serious misfigurement) is just dumb (forget the religious aspect).

We were created a specific way, to change the way we look equates to us having no confidence in ourselves.

People must understand that its what's on the inside thats important and not the outside.

If you are a drop dead beautiful hottie but have the persoanlity of a skank, trust me, no guy would take you seriously. If you were normal looking but as sweet as honey for a persoanlity, you would be treated like a diamond by a man. The same is applicable for the male gender

Okay, slightly related but slightly off-topic... Have you all seen the Pink music video called "Stupid Girl". It relates to what Liban said about being more than just physical beauty.

How nice to see some positive female messages for once.