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herve · Oct 02, 2011

al shafique, do you know how old is the earth?

desertdudeshj · Oct 02, 2011

Well according to the Bible is around 6000 years old.

shafique · Oct 02, 2011

Yes herve, I do. Do you?

As DDS states, there are indeed those who believe the earth is the centre of the universe, and that the earth is only 6000 years old - because that is what the Bible literally says according to them. (They also, like eh, believe in talking donkeys - and are serious about it too. )

Muslims are fortunate that the Quran doesn't lead us down that particular blind alley.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 02, 2011

I don't know how old the earth is according to the Koran, but it does say Allah took 6...no, 8 days to complete his creation of the universe. :shock:

Wonder where the earth is said to be 6,000 years old in the Bible? Probably in the same verse where Jesus is said to be speaker in the epistle of James? :lol:

shafique · Oct 02, 2011

eh, it must be soo frustrating that there aren't any 'young earther' Muslims who are adamant the earth is only a few thousand years old. But there are a number of your fellow Americans who do indeed believe this.

Let's see what herve's references say Islam teaches about the age of the earth - let's not jump ahead.

You've got enough problems of your own - explaining your logic for calling Jews and Muslims dumb for circumcising males when you believe God Himself was circumcised. Indeed, it seemed like you were avoiding the religion forum given all your outstanding issues over your Biblical confusion.

We'll get to what the Quran says in due course. We'll see why there are no Muslims who think the world is 6000 years old, and only Christians.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 03, 2011

al shafique, ohh it is deeper than what Islam teaches about the age of the earth, you ll see when i get there...but if you agree that earth is 4,5 billion years, then may be we can move on to my next question:
how old is the universe?

This thread is not about the bible, I d be glad to talk about the bible , but not here.

desertdudeshj · Oct 03, 2011

*Must not feed the troll !

herve · Oct 03, 2011

no trolling here DDS, simple question

shafique · Oct 03, 2011

Ok, simple answer to your question - the Quran does not give an exact timescale for the age of the universe or age of the earth.

Some Muslims interpret metaphorical verses where God talks about one of His days being 1000 years of man's time, and the time it takes a soul to reach heaven/God being a span of 50,000 God's years. This gives an age of the universe of around 18 billion years, vs the 13+billion years scientists estimate the big bang. Earth is interpreted to have been created 2/3 of the time of the universe, based on the verses which say Earth was created on the second 'day'.

These Muslims may be right. They may also be mistaken. My view is that this interpretation is 'interesting' but not definitive.

However, these are classic examples of metaphors and God has said

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. (3.7)

So, herve - it seems perverse to seek illogical teachings in Islam by looking at metaphorical verses. If you really think Islam is evil and illogical - you should tackle the clear, precise verses which God says are the foundation of the Quran.

Happy to clarify if anything is still unclear.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 03, 2011

shafique wrote:Ok, simple answer to your question - the Quran does not give an exact timescale for the age of the universe or age of the earth.

Some Muslims interpret metaphorical verses where God talks about one of His days being 1000 years of man's time, and the time it takes a soul to reach heaven/God being a span of 50,000 God's years. This gives an age of the universe of around 18 billion years, vs the 13+billion years scientists estimate the big bang. Earth is interpreted to have been created 2/3 of the time of the universe, based on the verses which say Earth was created on the second 'day'.

These Muslims may be right. They may also be mistaken. My view is that this interpretation is 'interesting' but not definitive.

So, herve - it seems perverse to seek illogical teachings in Islam by looking at metaphorical verses. If you really think Islam is evil and illogical - you should tackle the clear, precise verses which God says are the foundation of the Quran.

Happy to clarify if anything is still unclear.

Cheers,
Shafique

Here is my first example that islam is illogical.
forget the non sense of 2 days , or 6,000 years to make earth, it is not the issue here.
The error in the quran is that allah claims to have made Earth FIRST , THEN, the sun and the stars.
You admit yourself that it is the other way around, the sun and the stars were made first, THEN Earth.
Thus the quran has a major error, read carefully. Earth, then stars

"Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)�. Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

shafique · Oct 03, 2011

I suggest you re-read the verse in question and then read the commentaries. Don't trust what anti-Islamic sites tell you the verse means, but compare what they tell you with what Muslim sites say.

Then make up your mind whether or not it is actually illogical.

I also suggest you give the Quranic reference in future (although here it is clear which verse you are talking about).

With a little bit of investigation herve, you'll find that God's descriptions do not go against logic. But only if you don't believe what loon websites tell is the truth.

(Note, that I said the universe was created first - then the earth, i.e. there was a period after the big bang before planets and stars were formed. Sun and stars and planets were created after the big bang, and some cooled earlier than others - hence some planetary systems formed before others. The Quranic descriptions do not contradict this view - but neither is the Quranic verse a scientific description - it is figurative.)

If you still think it is illogical, after you've investigated, let me know specifically which Muslim explanation you disagree with and I'll help you understand it more fully.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 03, 2011

Can't you read? it s the quran, not commentaries,
here again:
"Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)�. Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
It s pretty much straight forward, your allah built Earth than the universe.
You continue to spin around facts al shafique, anyone who reads this verse can see it clear. he made earth THEN , he made the universe.
Of course you cannot go along with that, because then you would have to admit there are errorsin the quran
Your excuse of figuration does not aply here, it is just en aexcusefor you

What is figuratif is the "heavens", the "lamps" but not the time line, there is no figuration in the time line. Earth first , then the Universe, the quran is dead wrong.

shafique · Oct 04, 2011

herve just repeating your interpretation (and yet again not giving the Quranic reference), doesn't help your case.

Read what God says closely. 'Completed and finished' does not mean 'started to create'.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 04, 2011

shafique wrote "Read what God says closely. 'Completed and finished' does not mean 'started to create'. "

No it means just that: "he finished". he finished the universe after Earth, do you agree with that?

dont tell me he started the universe first (i dont know where you got that) then he made the Earth, and then he finished the universe AFTER he made the Earth, and the universe turned up older than the Earth? ok

What logic is that?, you dont make much sense dont you.
It does not matter when he started what counts is when he finished. The surat i put in reference reads he finished the universe after he finished earth, and that is an error. because Earth was finished after the univers, and not the other way around like in the quran, there is no get around this. It is an error

If you FINISH A after B , A is younger than B, regardless of what you started first.

shafique · Oct 04, 2011

herve - read the verse carefully.

What does God say he completed after he had created the earth? Does God say 'universe'?

Your problem is clear. You are not actually reading the Quran for understanding - you're getting your information from anti-Islam websites. This is as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts.

Now, when I look up in the night sky or look at images from Hubble, I can see stars that are being formed - except in reality they were formed billions of years ago - but they are so far away that the light is only reaching us now. There are super-novae which are long gone, but we are seeing them only now.

So, as I stated before, what God describes in the Quran (whilst being figurative) is not in any way against logic or science.

It is most definitely against the Islamophobic misinterpretations of the Quran - but it is silly to ask me to defend a silly misinterpretation. I'm sure you can see the logic in this statement.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 04, 2011

shafique wrote: herve - read the verse carefully.Shafique

I did, here again:
"Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)�. Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

shafique wrote: What does God say he completed after he had created the earth? Does God say 'universe'? Shafique

he uses the words as heaven, lamp, adorment, which seem to mean "stars" which are the universe

shafique wrote: Your problem is clear. You are not actually reading the Quran for understanding - you're getting your information from anti-Islam websites. This is as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts. Shafique

Your problem, is that as soon you lose ground, you make accusations. How dare you say that i get my information from anti islamic websites, do you have any proof, no, then you are a LIAR.

shafique wrote: Now, when I look up in the night sky or look at images from Hubble, I can see stars that are being formed - except in reality they were formed billions of years ago - but they are so far away that the light is only reaching us now. There are super-novae which are long gone, but we are seeing them only now. Shafique

I did not ask you to look up in the sky ot tell me things that i already know.
I aks you to read the reference from the quran that i posted, and only that. No mentions of super novae, speed of light or hubble in the surat right? so stick to the surat.
obviously you have no arguments, nothing to prove there is no mistake there.

shafique wrote: So, as I stated before, what God describes in the Quran (whilst being figurative) is not in any way against logic or science. Shafique

yes it is , your god finished the stars and heavens whatever, AFTER he finished the Earth, hence a contradiction in the surat since it is the otherway around.
i understand your despair, as you cannot accept the fact that there are many many errors in the quran, and you wouldrather hammer your fingers instead of admit to it

shafique wrote:It is most definitely against the Islamophobic misinterpretations of the Quran - but it is silly to ask me to defend a silly misinterpretation. I'm sure you can see the logic in this statement.Shafique

For you, anything or anyone that is critical of islam is a loon or islamophobe. Even with facts rubbed on your nose , you can't see it.
To me it is the proof that you fail.

I take it from the surat , and the surat only, the time lime clearly states that your allah finished earth then he finished the universe.
science shows it is the other way around, first the univers was made, then earth was formed.
the quran is a fraud, and muhammad a criminal, period.

Cheers,
Shafique[/quote]

event horizon · Oct 04, 2011

herve wrote:Your problem, is that as soon you lose ground, you make accusations. How dare you say that i get my information from anti islamic websites, do you have any proof, no, then you are a LIAR.

Shafique has a rolodex of talking points taken from various Muslim websites. He's of course used some in this thread about the Koran, metaphors, blah, blah, blah.

He was caught a while ago lifting arguments from an Ahmadi missionary website and has ever since projected what he does to other posters. So it's curious he would project/criticize anyone else for doing what he does on a normal basis:

shafique wrote:Sorry, I must have a different version of Matthew 10.5:
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

That says clearly to go to the lost sheep of Israel, the only people Jesus said he was sent to according to Matt 15.24, also quoted in my post.

I do understand that Christian theology is that Christ's message is universal and not limited to the Jews. As discussed before, that is where Muslims disagree with the Bible - where Paul diverges from Jesus' mission and extends the preaching to Gentiles.

Further references for Jesus telling disciples not to preach to non-Jews are:

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda; for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. MATTHEW 2.6

The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever. LUKE 1.32/33

Where is he that is born the King of the Jews? MATTHEW 2.2

Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. JOHN 12.13

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an peach's colt. JOAN 12.15

For this cause therefore I have called for you, to see you and, to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am hound with this chain. ACTS 28.20

Him that God hath exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. ACTS 5.31

0f this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour. Jesus. ACTS 13.23

CHRIST'S OWN ADMISSION:

It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. MARK 7.27

For salvation is of the Jews. JOHN 4.22

Verily I say unto you, That which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye shall sit upon the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. MATTHEW 19.28

I appoint unto ye a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. LUKE 22.29/30

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, least they trample them unto their feet and turn again and rend you. MATTHEW 7.6

Ye know how that it is unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation. ACTS 10.28

Reference that there was dissension in the Early Church:

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3

Cheers,
Shafique

dubai-politics-talk/letter-bush-t24867-90.html#p221140

alislam.org wrote:Jesus Christ not a Universal Teacher

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. MATTHEW 28.19
SENT TO HOUSE OF ISRAEL:

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda; for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. MATTHEW 2.6

The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever. LUKE 1.32/33

Where is he that is born the King of the Jews? MATTHEW 2.2

Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. JOHN 12.13

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. JOAN 12.15

For this cause therefore I have called for you, to see you and, to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am hound with this chain. ACTS 28.20

Him that God hath exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. ACTS 5.31

0f this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour. Jesus. ACTS 13.23

CHRIST'S OWN ADMISSION:

It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. MARK 7.27

For salvation is of the Jews. JOHN 4.22

Verily I say unto you, That which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye shall sit upon the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. MATTHEW 19.28

I appoint unto ye a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. LUKE 22.29/30

DENIED SALVATION TO NON JEWS:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, least they trample them unto their feet and turn again and rend you. MATTHEW 7.6

Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. MATTHEW 10.5/6

Ye know how that it is unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation. ACTS 10.28

INITIAL OBEDIENCE OF EARLY CHRISTIANS:

They preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. ACTS 13.5

And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues. ACTS 9.20

FAILURE FORCED MESSAGE UNTO GENTILES:

It was necessary that the word of God have been spoken unto you: but seeing that thou put it from you, and judge yourself unworthy of the everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. ACTS 13.46

And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. ACTS 18.6

Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have closed: lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. ACTS 28.26/28.

CONTENTION IN THE EARLY CHURCH:

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/bi ... ter_8.html

shafique wrote:Your problem is clear. You are not actually reading the Quran for understanding - you're getting your information from anti-Islam websites. This is as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts.

The height of stupidity.

shafique · Oct 05, 2011

eh - thanks for showing that when I quote Biblical verses I give the references. I'm not sure why quoting from a handy list of Biblical verses with references offends you - perhaps it is because you can't deal with what the verses say.

By contrast, I am addressing herve directly - but chastising him for believing in loon misinterpretations. Your quote above just has me quoting Biblical verses with references. Not quite the same, is it?

herve - 'stars' do not equal the universe. I see you are having a simple problem with comprehension.

The sun is a star. The earth is a planet orbiting the sun - and along with the other planets of the sun, this makes up our solar system. Our solar system is part of a galaxy - the other stars and solar systems that form our galaxy are viewed as the 'milky way' from earth.

Looking further out we see other galaxies - made up of stars, planets and moons.

The universe is everything. By definition. God does not use the word universe for what creation is completed after the earth - does He?

God's words are clear and logical, but still metaphorical. Re-read my previous explanation and you'll see that the sequence isn't against science and logic. Only your mistaken interpretation is. If you came up with it yourself, then you are sharing this misconception with loon websites. However I suspect you just picked it up and believed in it - without first applying some thought. Had you actually read the commentaries - it may have not put you in this embarrassing situation.

Read again and you'll see why there is wisdom and beauty in the verse and nothing in it is illogical.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 05, 2011

al shafique, you are trying to deceit, but you fail in that too. you lecture me on planets and the universe, as if i needed it, :lol:

i earned a degree in astronomy at the university of Paris, and i was building rockets in high school, and i am naval officer which include astral navigation.

i beleive you are an actuary, do you have any degree in astronomy or anything related to it.

it is about the surat which contains an error, where your god is to have made earth before he made the univers , and I would love to see your explanation for this then:

After he finished earth he did this: please explain, in your own words, dont dig in islamist websites.

Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils).

Do you know the signification of the word "THEN"

here it is since you dont seem to comprehend the word:

then
adverb
1. at that time: Prices were lower then.
2. immediately or soon afterward: The rain stopped and then started again.
3. next in order of time: We ate, then we started home.
4. at the same time: At first the water seemed blue, then gray.
5. next in order of place: Standing beside Charlie is my uncle, then my cousin, then my brother.

obviously, "then" cannot relate to something older, or prior to

shafique · Oct 05, 2011

The key words God uses are 'completed and finished'.

Thus the use of the word 'then' after 'created earth' states that God completed the 'seven heavens' after he had 'created earth'.

Had God said, 'after creating earth, then He created stars etc' you'd have an argument. As it is, you are inferring a meaning that isn't in the Quran.

As stated before 'completed and finished' does not equal 'started creating'.

(And no, I don't have a degree in rocket science - and given your qualifications, the above should be crystal clear to you.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Edit - herve, you seem to be quoting verses 41.9, 10 and 12, but missing out 41.11. Can you confirm/clarify.

herve · Oct 05, 2011

shafique wrote:The key words God uses are 'completed and finished'.
Thus the use of the word 'then' after 'created earth' states that God completed the 'seven heavens' after he had 'created earth'.
Shafique

At last ....you admit there is an error in the quran. so i hope we can move on to the next error in the quran

shafique wrote: Had God said, 'after creating earth, then He created stars etc' you'd have an argument. As it is, you are inferring a meaning that isn't in the Quran.
Shafique

it does not matter if he did not say "then he created" the universe , what counts in a time line is the completion date, not the starting date. he said "then" he completed the universe, which means whatever he completed after Earth is younger than earth, not older, hence the error in the quran.
Example:
you start building a bridge, then you build a house, then, when you are done with the house you finish the bridge , you started the bridge before the house, ok, but you finished it after the house, and it took so long because the fekking bridge is sooo big, so the bridge is younger than the house right? i hope you agree with that because if you don't I vote you should be institutionalized in a nuthouse.

shafique wrote:As stated before 'completed and finished' does not equal 'started creating'.
Shafique

Never said so. what counts in timing is the completion time, unless your god used some warp time machine.

event horizon · Oct 05, 2011

shafique wrote:By contrast, I am addressing herve directly - but chastising him for believing in loon misinterpretations. Your quote above just has me quoting Biblical verses with references. Not quite the same, is it?

My mistake, I thought your problem with herve was that you were accusing him of not actually reading the Koran but reading passages of the Koran from websites:

Your problem is clear. You are not actually reading the Quran for understanding - you're getting your information from anti-Islam websites. This is as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts.

Apparently that's different from what you did - with some slight editing to make it sound less copy/pasty:

For instance, the article says:

CONTENTION IN THE EARLY CHURCH:

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3

It appears you edited this slightly to make it less copy/pasty sounding:

shafique wrote:Reference that there was dissension in the Early Church:

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3

But you're free to believe never actually reading the Bible for understanding and getting your information from Muslim websites isn't as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts. Since it applies to you (you were caught doing what you accuse herve of) it doesn't count. It certainly would explain someone as Biblically illiterate as to not know the difference between an epistle and Gospel yet still try to argue the meaning of crucial aspects of theology based on Bible verses he mistakenly reads or some other entertaining and exceedingly wrong beliefs regarding Arius or the council of Nicea the poster needed to be corrected on.

shafique wrote:Your problem is clear. You are not actually reading the Quran for understanding - you're getting your information from anti-Islam websites. This is as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda texts.

So this doesn't apply to you? Obviously, you've never read the Bible and you've been caught getting your information from Muslim websites. But it's not as logical as learning about Jews from Nazi propaganda sites.

Got it.

And for the record, numerous passages in your copy/pasty list were quoted for reasons I don't quite understand.

John 4:22 doesn't say salvation is only for the Jews. It actually says salvation is *from* the Jews and the context of that passage especially undermines the purpose of the author's use of the verse in his list to show Jewish exclusivity.

It's just basic and obviously wrong mistakes some simple research (actual studies into the Bible) would uncover.

But thanks for claiming I couldn't actually deal with your copy/pasty list of verses. I guess you'll believe anything if you put your delusional mind to it.

shafique · Oct 05, 2011

May I request you stop trolling eh - this thread is not about my listing Biblical verses, and you trying to spin this. Just link to the thread where I quoted these verses and reply there.

herve, may I ask you to clarify the verses you're quoting from and then let's post a definitive translation - and then we can see whether your theory about the timelines stands up.

First:

shafique wrote:Edit - herve, you seem to be quoting verses 41.9, 10 and 12, but missing out 41.11. Can you confirm/clarify.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 19, 2011

THe verse in question is verses 9 - 12 of chapter 41:

9 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

10 He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

Which translates into
he created Earth, THEN completed the universe, the sky and the stars.
your book is wrong, it is the other way around al shafique

shafique · Oct 19, 2011

Thanks.

Where did you get your previous quote from then? The wording is different:

herve wrote:Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)�. Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

Compare the two and you'll see where you are going wrong (re-read my explanations above) - God is not saying He started the creation of the stars after earth had been completed.

(You should now see why you should check quotes you get from loon websites - they are wrong)

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 20, 2011

12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

41 9, he made the earth
41 12 HE COMPLETED the sky and the heavens .....

dont you read english?

shafique · Oct 20, 2011

Repeating yourself won't help you herve - I've already stated that 'completed' does not mean 'started' - the verse you left out in your original quote is quite telling. Read that verse and then tell us why the loon website you copied it from left it out.

Wishing for a meaning that is not in the Quran is just making you look silly.

(Why don't you tell us from which loon website you took the wrong quote from?)

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:31 am --

Repeating yourself won't help you herve - I've already stated that 'completed' does not mean 'started' - the verse you left out in your original quote is quite telling. Read that verse and then tell us why the loon website you copied it from left it out.

Wishing for a meaning that is not in the Quran is just making you look silly.

(Why don't you tell us from which loon website you took the wrong quote from?)

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:32 am --

Repeating yourself won't help you herve - I've already stated that 'completed' does not mean 'started' - the verse you left out in your original quote is quite telling. Read that verse and then tell us why the loon website you copied it from left it out.

Wishing for a meaning that is not in the Quran is just making you look silly.

(Why don't you tell us from which loon website you took the wrong quote from?)

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 20, 2011

You need repeat because you keep denying. However it is quite simple:
verses 9 - 12 of chapter 41:
9 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10 He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

I dont know what you are talking about with your loon websites, this come from my copy of the quran. you keep repeating that because you have no arguments and because you have not even read the quran as I exposed you before.
so again and for al shafique:
Your prohet (a pedophile and a criminal) states that your god created earth (9)
Then the mountains and everything on it (10)
Then the he made the sky from the smoke that was there before. (11)
And then he finished , he "completed" with the firmament and heavens , with lights (stars). (12)
Do you see the time line? 9 to 12?
It does not matter if started the universe before he made the Earth, what matters is that he completed it AFTER he finished Earth, which would make the universe younger than Earth (obviously) but since the universe is older than Earth, it could NOT have been completed after, hence the non sense that is the quran.
In a time line, what makes it the younger is the finish day , not the starting day.

shafique · Oct 20, 2011

You haven't told us from which website you got the wrong quote which misled you. Now you are trying to put words and meanings into the Quran which aren't there, and haven't acknowledged why you chose to believe a misleading (and wrong) quote to begin with.

Just wishing that your loon interpretation is right does not change what God actually says in these verses.

Remember how certain you were that DearJohn was me. Do you still believe that to be the case? You were wrong then, you are even more wrong here.

Are you ashamed to tell us who misled you initially with the wrong quote?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Oct 20, 2011

the quote is from the quran, and I agree with you that the quran is misleading (to the least)

You are still denying that the quran does states that the universe was "completed" after earth was finished. then you go in your loon fantasies because you dont have any other arguments.

Show me a quote where I said that "I was CERTAIN that you and dearjohn were the same".

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