KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn?

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
I'm not the one confused.

I notice that whenever a simple task is set for you, you tend to waffle on and on.

It would have been much quicker to admit that you can't find an expert who agree's with your blogger friend's argument.

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Shafique

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
We see the Muslim scholars believe Iblis was an angel based on the clear verses of the Koran.

Do you disagree with this assessment?

Do you also admit to being wrong when claiming there is no confusion in anyone's mind what Iblis is (some Muslim scholars believing Iblis is both a jinn and an angel)?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
No eh, imagining that quotes from random blogger equates to Muslim scholars agreeing with random blogger is not facing reality.

Just simply find a real scholar or an expert who agrees with your blogger's belief that there's a contradiction.

God is quite clear - Iblis is a jinn. As explained in my first post.

Now, and I know I'm repeating myself, isn't time you addressed the real issues with the Bible and finally made good on your boast that you'd email an expert on honour killings to see if they agreed with your theory?

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Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
If Koran god is quite clear, then why do Muslim scholars believe that Iblis was an angel but changed to a jinn or that jinn and angels are one and the same - these beliefs reconcile the contradiction in the Koran and we see that the scholars cite the verses of Koran god calling Iblis an angel to support their interpretation.

Do you disagree?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
The Quran is quite clear - as I said in my first post. God says Iblis is a jinn.

Only Sam and those who want to believe Sam's flights of fancy are confused.

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 30, 2011
Are there Muslim scholars who believe Iblis was an angel but became a jinn and yet others who believe Iblis is both an angel and jinn?

Do they base this belief on the Koranic verses which say Iblis is an angel?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
How many times do I need to repeat the simple facts to you eh?

NO, there are no experts/scholars/credible persons who agree with Sam's belief that the Quran contains a contradiction on what Iblis is. God clearly states that Iblis is a Jinn.

Put it another way:
Ask any expert/scholar/credible person - what does the Quran say Iblis is, and they will ALL answer: 'God says he is a Jinn'.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 30, 2011
NO, there are no experts/scholars/credible persons who agree with Sam's belief that the Quran contains a contradiction on what Iblis is. God clearly states that Iblis is a Jinn.


Could you please explain the quotes of Muslim scholars Sam quotes and links to in his article?

The Arabic in verse 18:50 could be translated as he was a jinn or it could be translated as he became a jinn. The following translation of the Arabic verse 18:50 stating that Satan became a jinn, however, is the correct understanding for reasons stated below… It can be understood that Satan became disobedient and therefore no longer an angel through looking at other verses as well as this one rather than coming to a conclusion using only this verse. We should not take the scripture partially… First, God spoke specifically to the angels, not the angels and the jinns… Second, God issued the command to fall prostrate to the angels; and the angels fell prostrate, all of them, except Satan. Some Islamic "scholars" argue about the use of the Arabic word "illah" (except), but it is just a distraction from the fact that God is clearly speaking to and giving the command to angels… Third, There is no mistaking that Satan has fallen, God tells us Satan is in his act of rebellion, which is followed by his banishment… Lastly, the Islamic "scholars" claim that angels are made of light, but nowhere in the Quran does it say what angels are made of. Since there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in the Quran and it is perfect (16:103,18:2, 26:195), complete (6:115, 41:3), and fully detailed (6:114, 7:52, 10:37), we can conclude that the confusion is caused by the contradicting Hadith. (Source)


According to al-Qasim b. al-Hasan- al-Husayn b. Dawud- Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj- Ibn `Abbas: Iblis was one of the most noblest angels and belonged to the most honored tribe among them. He was a keeper of Paradise. He had authority to rule over the lower heaven as well as earth.

According to al-Qasim- al-Husayn- Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj- Salih, the mawla of al-Taw'amah and Sharik b. Abir Namir, either one or both of them- Ibn `Abbas: There was an angelic tribe of jinn, and Iblis belonged to it. He governed all in between the heaven and the earth....


IN ORDER to grasp the purport of the term jinn as used in the Qur’an, we must dissociate our minds from the meaning given to it in Arabian folklore, where it early came to denote all the manner of "demons" in the most popular sense of the word. This folkloristic image has somewhat obscured the original connotation of the term and its highly significant – almost self-explanatory – verbal derivation. The root-verb janna, "he [or "it"] concealed" or "covered with darkness": cf. 6 : 76, which speaks of Abraham "when the night overshadowed him with its darkness (janna ‘alayhi)". Since this verb is also used in the intransitive sense ("he [or "it"] was [or "became"] concealed," resp. "covered with darkness"), all classical philologists point out that al-jinn signifies "intense [or "confusing"] darkness" and, in a more general sense, "that which is concealed from [man’s] senses", i.e., things, beings or forces which cannot normally be perceived by man but have, nevertheless, an objective reality, whether concrete or abstract, of their own.

In the usage of the Qur’an, which is certainly different from the usage of primitive folklore, the term jinn has several distinct meanings. The most commonly encountered is that of the spiritual forces or beings which, precisely because they have no corporeal existence, are beyond the perceptions of our corporeal senses: a connotation which includes "satans" and "satanic forces" (shayatin – see note 16 on 15 : 17) as well as "angels" and "angelic forces", since all of them are "concealed from our senses" (Jawhari, Raghib). In order to make it quite evident that these invisible manifestations are not of a corporeal nature, the Qur’an states parabolically that the jinn were created out of "the fire of scorching winds" (nar as-samum, in 15 : 27) or out of "a confusing flame of fire" (marij min nar, in 55 :15) or simply "out of fire" (7 : 12 and 38 : 76, in these last two instances referring to the Fallen Angel, Iblis). Parallel with this, we have authentic ahadith to the effect that the Prophet spoke of the angels as having been "created out of light" (khuliqat min nur: Muslim, on the authority of ‘A’ishah) – light and fire being akin, and likely to manifest themselves within and through one another (cf. note 7 on verse 8 of surah 27). (The Message of the Quran translated and explained by Muhammad Asad [The Book Foundation, England 2003], Appendix III: On the Term and Concept of Jinn, p. 1135)


So we have three separate Muslim scholars all believing Iblis was either at one point an angel or an angel as well as a jinn.

So it looks like you're wrong once again.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 31, 2011
They were maybe Christian converts to Islam who got confused the concept of fallen angel into Islam. Just guessing, but I won't waste my time checking which scholar said what. In any case, they are wrong. In the Quran language is clear and Iblis was Jinn.

One other thing, this wouldn't make a contradiction, if interpreted as fallen angel, but it is not true. In Quran there is no such thing as fallen angel.

Why do I waste my time on these such ridiculous arguments.

--- Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:46 am ---

Here what Mohammad Asad says, he is not alive so we can't get it cleared but he has termed the fallen angels, but not same:
In the usage of the Quran, which is certainly different from the usage of primitive
folklore, the term jinn has several distinct meanings. The most commonly encountered is
that of spiritual forces or beings which, precisely because they have no corporeal
existence, are beyond the perception of our corporeal senses: a connotation 'which
includes "satans" and "satanic forces" (shayateen - see note 16 on 15:17) as well as
"angels" and "angelic forces", since all of them are "concealed from our senses" (Jawhari,
Raghib). In order to make it quite evident that these invisible manifestations are not of a
corporeal nature, the Qur'an states parabolically that the jinn were created out of "the fire
of scorching winds" (naar as-samoom, in 15:27), or out of "a confusing flame of fire"
(maarij min naar, in 55:15), or
simply "out of fire" (7:12 and 38:76, in these last two
instances referring to the Fallen Angel, Iblis). Parallel with this, we have authentic
ahadith to the effect that the Prophet spoke of the angels as having been "created out of
light"
(khuliqat min noor: Muslim, on the authority of Aishah) - light and fire being akin,
and likely to manifest themselves within and through one another (cf. note 7 on verse 8 of
surah 27).

See appendix 3: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... _Quran.pdf

Not sure what he exactly means but what I gather he means that their origins are similar. But they are not same, one from fire and other from light. They are two separate entities.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 31, 2011
Nucleus - why don't you just wait and see if eh can come up with a new argument.

His only source so far has been his Islamophobic, Christian, blogger Sam - and the usual selective quotes and wild interpretations.

No expert/scholar/credible person shares their belief - as anyone who reads the Quran is quite clear what God has said Iblis is. Iblis is a Jinn. God tells us Jinn and Angels are separate beings etc.

Now, if eh can come up with a new argument or one expert who agrees with Sam's interpretation, then we will have something to address.

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Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 31, 2011
EH, in Surat Al-Hijr verses from 26 till 42 is about God's creation of Human,Jinn and angels all together...
The ayah 31 is not inclusive continuation of the ayah 30, as it is quoted separately from the one before, this indicates that while 30th verse is about angels, 31st verse is about the jinn itself..
http://quran.com/15

You also know that angels don't have "free will" against God's orders like jinns and humans do. So it's impossible that God is confusing us with the order of the verses and the meaning assigned to them.
here there is more definitions of the jinn sort..
http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Jan 01, 2012
As I explained to Nucleus - there is no confusion amongst any expert/scholar/credible person on this point - only some random bloggers seem to believe in Sam's theory.

All the explanations to show that there is no contradiction were given in my first post. The counter argument that eh gave is effectively 'Sam thinks the truth is 'weak' ' :roll:!

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Jan 01, 2012
there is no confusion amongst any expert/scholar/credible person on this point


Please summarize the views of the Muslim scholars cited in Sam's article.

Do these scholars agree with you that Iblis was not an angel or do they disagree with you that Iblis was or currently is an angel?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Jan 02, 2012
I've already shown in my first post why your random blogger is wrong.

You have failed to quote one expert/scholar/credible person that agrees with said random blogger's belief. God says Iblis is a Jinn -the only person confused is Sam and those that want to believe his random misinterpretations.

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Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Jan 02, 2012
I've already shown in my first post why your random blogger is wrong.


I didn't ask you about Sam's views. I asked you to summarize the views of the Muslim scholars he quotes.

Btw, your logic is that someone shouldn't listen to "random" writers on the internet.

I'll let that sink in with people who can actually understand the irony in your statement and add I couldn't agree more.

I totally dismiss your beliefs and theories on a regular basis.

God says Iblis is a Jinn -the only person confused is Sam


What do the Muslim scholars Sam quotes believe about Iblis?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Jan 02, 2012
All Muslims aren't confused on the subject - because God clearly states Iblis is a Jinn.

Sam's interpretations don't change this simple fact.

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Jan 02, 2012
How do the Muslim scholars quoted in the article change this simple fact?
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