Koranic War Crimes

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Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
We know that from the hadiths and biographies on Muhammad that Islam's last prophet routinely carried out war crimes. Some of these war crimes included the mass beheading of unarmed civilians, gruesome executions of bandits, waging offensive war, pillaging tribes, and enslaving thousands of women and children.

The Koran is also an additional historical source providing the student of Islam with even more examples of war crimes that the prophet of Islam committed. The Koran says that oppression is worse than slaughter. Indeed, the historical context behind this verse unsurprisingly was said to have been revealed to Muhammad to justify the killing of two unarmed Meccan merchants during a jihad raid targeting Mecca's prosperous, yet fragile, trade economy - apparently, murdering two unarmed caravan drivers in an unprovoked attack for booty can be justified if the Muslims say they are oppressed (raise your hands if you've heard Muslims today justify slaughter because they're 'oppressed').

After all, as a city in the middle of a desert, Mecca depended on trade for its survival. And hampering with Mecca's trade was an affront to every Meccan citizen - a serious offense, no less. Gradually, Muhammad's jihad continued subsuming many weaker and smaller tribes that did not voluntarily fall into an alliance with Islam (Islam did not, and does not, offer 'fence-sitters' a choice). Now, it was Mecca's turn to experience the wrath of Muhammad's jihad.

During Muhammad's conquest of Mecca, several individuals were sought after by the Muslims to be executed for their activities during Muhammad's conflict with his native city. Most of the people to be rounded up and executed committed such crimes as writing poetry against Muhammad or rejecting Islam.

However, the Koran provides us with another piece of information that the biographies I have read leaves out. According to the Koran, when the Muslims took Mecca, the center of worship for the Pagan Meccans, what the Koran refers to as the 'Sacred Mosque' was now under the control of a militant religion that views all other religions as inferior and worthy of contempt. Indeed, members of other religions are ridiculed as 'filthy' and the lowest of Allah's created beings who will be tortured in the fires of hell for an eternity if disbelievers do not convert to Islam.

Now, with all of this kept in mind, could we expect that Islam and its prophet would reach out to the Pagans and allow them to worship in *their* own holy place? Of course not! So, of course, Allah sends down another convenient verse instructing Muslims that the Pagans are prohibited, yes barred, from worshiping at the site that their forefathers offered their sacrifices to the various gods.

Koran 9:17 and 9:19 says:

The idolaters have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness to unbelief against themselves, these it is whose doings are null, and in the fire shall they abide.


Do you reckon the giving of water to pilgrims and the inhabiting of the Holy Mosque as the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and struggles in the way of God? Not equal are they in God's sight; and God guides not the people of the evildoers.


The 'Holy' Mosque, of course, refers to the site of the ancient meteorite and surrounding house of worship that the ancient pagans traveled to throughout Arabia to worship at. When the Muslims took Mecca, the pagan house of worship suddenly became a Muslim house of worship. And with this sudden transformation, the pagans of Mecca and Arabia were now forbidden from stepping foot inside of the house of worship that they had used no later than a few hours before the Muslim conquest of their city.

With the conquest of Mecca, forever was lost the rights to freedom of religion for Arabia's pagan population and the Pagans were the ones now oppressed by militant Islam - the pure Islam of prophet Muhammad.

In this thread, I join any Muslims who will also join me in condemning the war crime that the Koran clearly records Muslims of carrying out - the prohibition of Pagans from using their own house of worship and taking the pagan shrine and house of worship over exclusively for Muslim use.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
I have no problem in condemning any war crime - even ones that only exist in eh's fanciful extrapolations.

Interesting that we have another thread on Biblical war crimes where the first one I picked was where 32,000 virgins were enslaved by Israelites and who also butchered, in cold blood, women, men, boys and babies. And yet eh doesn't seem to be able to bring himself to condemn this massacre.

Anyway, great to see that we'll be able to compare and contrast Biblical and Quranic war crimes.

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Shafique
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
By contrast, preventing Pagan Arabs (who eventually converted anyway) from praying to idols at the Kaaba pales into insignificance. They weren't barred from the Kaaba - just from putting their idols there and praying.


Hey, the Koran says that oppression is worse than slaughter. So, don't blame me for condemning the religious discrimination that Pagans received.

Further more, care to actually address what the Koran says? I'll quote the passage again:

Only he shall inhabit God's places of worship who believes in God and the Last Day, and performs the prayer, and pays the alms, and fears none but God alone; it may be that those will be among the guided


inhabit

Nope - the Koran doesn't say that the Pagans could still worship in the 'Holy' mosque. The Koran is quite clear that now, the agans could not step foot inside of the mosque. But hey, I'll be intrigued if you could post any information showing otherwise, including addressing what the Koran *actually* says. (unless you want to tell me that the author of the Koran is lying when he says that the Pagans 'shall not inhabit' the holy mosque)

Moreover, your response (justification?) is truly breathtaking. Praying and performing rituals and rites is a major religious practice for almost any major religion. I can only imagine the 'war crime' being committed if the Israeli government prevented Muslims from worshiping at mosques after they were suddenly converted into Synagogues. Oh wait, I have this thread to show that such a practice is not a war crimes and not to be condemned.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
Bump - for Shafique.

Do you condemn the actions of the Muslims where they prevented the Pagans from worshiping at their house of worship/pagan shrine?

Do you agree with me that this was a war crime and that if this happened today against Muslims, say at al-Aqsa mosque (where Muslims would no longer be able to worship there and Jews could only now worship at the Synagogue), that this would be considered a violation of human rights and a war crimes?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
As I said, I'm glad we have two threads on war crimes now - one with quotes from the Bible (with the first crime being the cold blooded slaughter of men, women, babies and the enslavement of 32,000 virgins - carried out by Israelites) and this thread about alleged war crimes in the Quran.

To answer your direct question - no, I don't see the restriction of Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba to be a war crime. Is it a war crime today that Israel does not allow Muslims to visit the wailing wall? (Or, if they do allow Muslims, would it be a war crime if they refused Arab Palestinians, say, from visiting the wall?)

However, I'm ok with you believing this was a war crime and condemning it - I'm still just flabbergasted that you don't condemn the biblical war crime referred to above. :shock:
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 02, 2010
Unfortunately, your wailing wall analogy doesn't even come close to applying. Muslims do not, and never have, worshipped at the wall. If there is a ban of Muslims from worshiping (or entering the premises as the Koran actually forbids pagans from doing), that would not be comparable to the restrictions that the Koran sets on the Pagans - as their house of worship was taken from them by the Muslims and they could no longer worship there.

It really speaks volumes that you would have to resort to such a comparison (I mean, wtf). But hey, I can understand the fact that you need to create false analogies to divert from addressing the issue of whether it was a crime to prohibit the Pagans from worshiping at their holy place.

So, do you think it's a criminal act to restrict the worship of the Pagans as the Koran instructs Muslims to do?

As I asked, if Israel converted al-Aqsa mosque to a Synogogue and prevented Muslims from worshiping there (it was purposely built on the ruins of the Temple) would you consider that to be a criminal act?

However, I'm ok with you believing this was a war crime and condemning it - I'm still just flabbergasted that you don't condemn the biblical war crime referred to above.


You shouldn't be. The Koran is quite clear that oppression is worse than slaughter. By deciding that the Pagans Arabs could no longer worship at their most holy of holies, Allah and the Muslims are now committing a crime worse than slaughter.

But hey, I forgot that these rules only apply to Muslims.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer? ;)

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. This was a war crime under the Geneva conventions- and the fact the Muslims are prevented from returning to their homes (which are now all gone) is pretty much worse than preventing Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba (the pagans weren't deprived of their homes).

Will you condemn the Israeli war crimes and continued denial of Muslims to enter where they used to live?


On the subject of war crimes (massacres in particular), I asked you the following question:
shafique wrote:

Is it only massacres carried out by Jewish people that you support, or do you only condemn massacres carried out by Muslims or Allah?



I guess I could extend the question to include 'discrimination' as well - but I suspect you'd continue to evade the question rather than answer it.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
It speaks volumes that you only have one simple rule, but that is too hard for you to follow.

Anyways, let me know if you get around to addressing the question posed in the OP - do you condemn the Muslims who prevented the Pagans from worshiping at their own house/site of worship?

I drew an analogy of Israel taking over al-Aqsa mosque (which was purposefully built on the Temple), would it be 'ok' if Israel took over the mosque, converted it to a Synagogue and prevented Muslims from entering the building?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
So, you don't dispute that you don't have problems with Israelis discriminating. You can't bring yourself to condemn (or even acknowledge) the war crime I described above that took place in the Maghreb quarter.

That does indeed speak volumes - as does the refusal to answer the question in red above.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
shafique wrote:So, you don't dispute that you don't have problems with Israelis discriminating. You can't bring yourself to condemn (or even acknowledge) the war crime I described above that took place in the Maghreb quarter.

That does indeed speak volumes - as does the refusal to answer the question in red above.

Cheers,
Shafique


Quote me where I said that I don't have a problem with the Israeli government discriminating.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
So, do you condemn the Israeli war crime committed when they bulldozed the Maghreb quarter and the fact they continue to deny access to the site to Muslims they evicted?

You didn't acknowledge the crime above and even seemed to argue that it was a false analogy (which is strange - as this is a thread about war crimes)

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
No, I argued that your wailing wall example was a false analogy. That was in the post before you even mentioned East Jerusalem.

Jeeez, you really have horrible reading comprehension problems.

Please, just follow the simple rule that I laid down for you.

Any comment on the question posed in the OP?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
So, do you or don't you condemn the Israeli war crime?

I've addressed the original point - I don't see the injunction that the Kaaba be returned to the original mono-theistic roots to be a war crime. The Pagaans all acknowledged that Allah was one of those to be worshipped - but only objected to the notion that other gods could not be worshipped alongside God.

Allah, as the supreme God, pre-dates Islam - in fact the Prophet's,pbuh, father was called 'slave of Allah' - Abdullah.

As I said, I am quite happy that you have started this thread so we can compare Quranic descriptions of 'war crimes' against those in the Bible.


But let me repeat - do you, or don't you, condemn the Israeli war crime described?

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
Why don't you start quoting me when you address what I write?

As for your question, once again, quote me where you think I condone something done by the Israelis in this thread.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
So, you won't condemn the Israeli war crimes.

Interesting.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
The Pagaans all acknowledged that Allah was one of those to be worshipped - but only objected to the notion that other gods could not be worshipped alongside God.


Right, and the Koran is clear that they had to convert to Islam if they wanted to worship in the sacred Mosque. Is this really your justification for blatant religious discrimination and intolerance? One of the dumbest I've ever read.

I don't see the injunction that the Kaaba be returned to the original mono-theistic roots to be a war crime.


You don't see prohibiting Pagans from worshiping at the Kaaba to be a crime?

Unbelievable.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
shafique wrote:So, you won't condemn the Israeli war crimes.

Interesting.

Cheers,
Shafique



Why don't you quote me where I supposedly 'condoned' Israel's actions in this thread?

Is it so hard for you to quote me from now on whenever you address my posts?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
This thread should be stickied just for anyone to be acquainted with your tactics.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
Great, I'm glad my view that it wasn't a crime registered with you.

In a way, I'm sort of relieved I do have a different perspective on what constitutes a war crime than you - for example, I would be mortified if I had your view that it was ok to enslave and rape 32,000 virgins and slaughter men and women in cold blood.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
Well, if you do condemn Israeli war crimes - why don't you just state this fact.

You don't condemn the Israelites when they butchered women etc and enslaved virgins, so I guess you are being consistent by not condemning more recent war crimes.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
Great, I'm glad my view that it wasn't a crime registered with you.


Would it be a crime if Israel took over al-Aqsa mosque, converted it to a Synagogue and prevented Muslims from worshiping at the Synagogue?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
shafique wrote:Well, if you do condemn Israeli war crimes - why don't you just state this fact.

You don't condemn the Israelites when they butchered women etc and enslaved virgins, so I guess you are being consistent by not condemning more recent war crimes.

Cheers,
Shafique


Why don't you quote me where you claimed that I condoned Israel's actions in this thread?

Or are you just afraid of being exposed as liar, once again?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
You say it is ok for Israelite to slaughter civilians and enslave/rape 32,000 virgins.

I asked whether you condemned (or even acknowledged) the war crime carried out in the 60's when the Israelies violated international law and evicted Muslims from their homes in the Maghreb quarter. Your silence was taken by me as a refusal to condemn this war crime.

You have the opportunity to clarify and correct this conclusion if it is a mistaken one - do you condemn the Israeli war crime or not?

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
Your lies are getting even more pathetic.

You claimed that I condoned Israeli 'discrimination' against Arabs in the SAME post that you first brought up East Jerusalem.

Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer? ;)

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. bla bla bla.....


Where did I condone Israeli 'racism' in any post prior to this one:

philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808

You said:
So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?


So, which post, prior to the one I linked to, did I 'condone' racism by Israel. You compound your poor reading comprehension by making things up on the fly.

Amazingly, it is only Muslims who are as consistent at distorting the posts of others'. I have no problem with anyone else doing this - even the majority of Muslims I've had discussions with, including *most* of the Muslim posters on this forum - rudeboy, berrin, dee70, etc.

If you just followed my simple rule (so simple, even you could follow it) you would have fewer chances to blatantly lie like this.
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 03, 2010
It was a simple question - given that you are ok with Israelites slaughtering civilians and enslaving/raping 32,000 virgins, why would I not assume you condone Israeli war crimes when you presented excuses for their actions rather than condemn them?

So, do you or do you not condemn (or even acknowledge) the Israeli war crime committed after the 1967 war when they bulldozed and evicted Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter and continue to refuse them to return to their land? This is both immoral and illegal under the Geneva conventions.

How am I distorting your views about war crimes?

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 04, 2010
So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?


Where did I say it was 'ok' for the Israeli government to discriminate against Muslims?

What's the matter, spewing so many lies that you can't keep track of everything?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 04, 2010
I asked whether you thought Israel's war crime after the 1967 war where it bulldozed the homes of Muslims in the Maghreb quarter and still refuses them the right to return to their land was not as bad (or worse) than preventing Pagans from worshipping Idols in Mecca.

You made excuses about it not being an appropriate analogy, but did not acknowledge or condemn this war crime of the Israelis.

I'm giving you the opportunity to clarify whether you do indeed acknowledge and condemn Israeli war crimes or not.

Given that you don't condemn Israelite cold blooded massacres of civilians because you think the excuse 'god told us to do it' is valid, I would understand why you don't want to condemn lesser war crimes such as the one in 1967.

Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 04, 2010
You made excuses about it not being an appropriate analogy, but did not acknowledge or condemn this war crime of the Israelis.


Sorry, but that isn't true:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer? ;)

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. bla bla bla.....


You claimed in the same post where you first mentioned the bulldozing, that I said it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Bringing up East Jerusalem is a red herring since East Jerusalem was *never* mentioned in any prior post

I am asking you to quote me from this thread where you think I said that it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Further lies won't help you, I'm afraid.

Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.


Why don't you stop lying and find the quote *before* this post philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808 where I said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims?
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 04, 2010
BTW, if anyone doesn't want to waste their time reading through the posts in the first page, they can just search for the word 'bulldozing' or 'East' 'Jerusalem' and see for themselves that they were first mentioned in this post:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer? ;)

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. This was a war crime under the Geneva conventions- and the fact the Muslims are prevented from returning to their homes (which are now all gone) is pretty much worse than preventing Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba (the pagans weren't deprived of their homes).


philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808

The same post where he said that I said that it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Not only did shafique lie once by attributing a statement to me that I never said, but he compounded his lie by claiming that it was brought up *after* he mentioned something about Israel and bulldozing homes.

Obviously, it's clear that shafique is a compulsive liar. This guy is a moderator (and presumably, he has responsibilities in the real world).
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Re: Koranic war crimes Mar 04, 2010
shafique wrote:Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

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