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Start off with a hilariously absurd passage and move on from there:

Koran 54:1-2

The Hour has drawn nigh: the moon is split.

Yet if they see a sign they turn away, and they say 'A continuous sorcery!'

Let's see if anyone can defend this passage - then I'll move on to the other scientific absurdities in the Koran.

I'll just wait patiently to see how you explain the Bible's assertion that the earth stopped rotating for a day.

I've been waiting almost 2 months now.

Then I'll come back and address this verse - Berrin etc, may I suggest we wait for EH to answer the question posed in March first?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'll just wait patiently to see how you explain the Bible's assertion that the earth stopped rotating for a day.

I've been waiting almost 2 months now.

Then I'll come back and address this verse - Berrin etc, may I suggest we wait for EH to answer the question posed in March first?

Cheers,
Shafique

Dear P and R moderator:

Please delete the quoted post, which is off-topic.

Hmmm- I guess I'll ask the new moderators to delete all the 'off topic' posts in the 'Christian Terrorists' thread then?

But, pray tell, why the new thread on Quran and Science when we have your previous attempts below and the spin off one (which you requested) on Bible and Science?

All Mouth, No Trousers perchance?

Cheers,
Shafique

So you agree with me that the Koran is scientifically inaccurate and therefore not the word of god.

shafique wrote:I'll just wait patiently to see how you explain the Bible's assertion that the earth stopped rotating for a day.

I've been waiting almost 2 months now.

Was I unclear?

Then I'll come back and address this verse.

Mod Edit: Moved from 'Bible and Science - eh's defence'

shafique wrote:BTW - a good treatment of what the Quran has to say about cosmology is here:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/re ... ion_5.html
(This can be compared to the loon spin in the other thread - for example the first Quranic quote shows God talking about an expanding universe, something that science only discovered in the 20th century - compare that with the loon assertion that there is 'nothing new' in the Quran in relation to cosmology.)

event horizon wrote:

shafique wrote:(This can be compared to the loon spin in the other thread - for example the first Quranic quote shows God talking about an expanding universe, something that science only discovered in the 20th century - compare that with the loon assertion that there is 'nothing new' in the Quran in relation to cosmology.)

Well, let's take a look at the actual quote from the missionary website you linked to:

51:48 And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un).1

Hmm. Hopefully not another passage taken out of context, like the passage of smoke referring to the origin of the universe.

Hey, why not just check other translations to see if your author is faithfully translating the Arabic to non-Arabic speakers:

Pickthall And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!
Yusuf Ali And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
Hilali-Khan And We have spread out the earth, how Excellent Spreader (thereof) are We!
Shakir And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
Sher Ali And the earth WE have spread out, and how excellently do WE spread it out !
Khalifa And we made the earth habitable; a perfect design.
Arberry And the earth -- We spread it forth; O excellent Smoothers!
Palmer And the earth - we have spread it out; and how well we lay it out!
Rodwell And the Earth - we have stretched it out like a carpet; and how smoothly have we spread it forth!
Sale And we have stretched forth the earth beneath; and how evenly have we spread [the same]!

Two major concerns should immediately come to mind:

1) The passage is speaking of the earth, not the 'heavens' as your author has decided to translate the passage into saying.

2) The passage does not refer to the 'spreading' in the future tense.

I can't say I'm very impressed. But, then again, religious loons, such as yourself, often do disappoint.

I'm not surprised you are not impressed. You are looking up the wrong verse - the numbering convention used by the author counts the first verse as number 1 (Bismillah), whereas Ali etc don't count this verse - and start with the second verse. Therefore the verse in question is numbered 47 in Ali etc:

Sahih International:
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Muhsin Khan:
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Pickthall:
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali:
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Shakir:
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Dr. Ghali:
And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide.

http://quran.com/51/47

This is what is translated by the author:

51:48 And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un).1

This site gives the literal translation as:

Transliteration: Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona
Literal: And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support , and We (E) are extending/spreading (E) .

http://www.internetmosque.net/read/engl ... /index.htm


Ergo, God says in the Quran that the universe (heavens) is expanding. Before the 20th century this was probably only interpreted metaphorically, but now it can be seen to be literal as well (according to science). However, recall that most scientists didn't believe the universe was expanding - (even Einstein initially, IIRC).

Cheers,
Shafique

Yeah, sure it is.

Or modern Muslims take certain liberties at making the verse fit in with current scientific theories.

Such an idea isn't exactly far off - given the loons here who believe the Koran trumps modern science with regards to evolution or that (and this is probably more desperate) the Koran has contains scientific 'miracles'.

Pickthall We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Hilali-Khan With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Shakir And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Sher Ali And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.
Khalifa We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.
Arberry And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.
Palmer And the heaven - we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!
Rodwell And the Heaven - with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse;
Sale We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent:

Ahh, loons ignore evidence - not for the first time.

Transliteration: Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona
Literal: And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support , and We (E) are extending/spreading (E)

So, when will you get round to addressing the issue of the Biblical claim that the sun stopped in the sky for a day? I hope it's less than 6000 years. So far, we are approaching 4 months mark without an answer!

Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't agree that the Quran contains scientifically inaccurate verses, but given that eh does believe this to be a feature of the Bible, I guess he either believes the Bible is not the word of God or he is a hypocrite.

So it's scientifically possible to turn clay into a living bird from thin air or for a day old infant to speak?

Epic fail.

Today seems to be a bad day for you eh - you admit that the Bible contains scientific absurdities and hence either believe that it is NOT the word of God, or you are a hypocrite. Which is it.

I still maintain that the Quran contains not one scientific absurdity, but God does say clearly that some verses are metaphorical. I don't hide behind the 'it was a miracle' argument to reject science - I leave that excuse for you and the Bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

LoL.

Just to clarify:

Did an infant Jesus really speak to adults?

Did Jesus turn a lump of clay into birds?

When were you appointed by a committee to decide which of the statements in the Koran are factual and which ones should be interpreted non-literally?

What is metaphorical of the above scientific absurdities?

Hey, as I said, I'm not the one who is saying the Bible contains scientific absurdities - that's on you.

Did Jesus speak as a child - yes, this one is not scientifically rubbish - there are kids who speak whilst still sleeping in cradles.

Did Jesus animate lumps of clay into birds - no, this is metaphorical - it is about his disciples.

So, given that the Bible DOES contain scientific absurdities - do you believe it is not the word of God?

Cheers,
Shafique

Really? Which day-old infants are able to form complex sentences and claim their mother did this or that?

I would imagine that would be beyond the scope of any mumbles a sleeping one year old makes.

LoL.

Really, you are delusional.

Did Jesus animate lumps of clay into birds - no, this is metaphorical - it is about his disciples.

So is allah a liar when he says that Jesus animated clay into birds?

When Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to thee and to thy mother, when I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit; thou spokest to people in the cradle and in old age, and when I taught thee the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel, and when thou didst determine out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then thou didst breathe into it and it became a bird by My permission; and thou didst heal the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the Children of Israel from thee when thou camest to them with clear arguments -- but those of them who disbelieved said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

Or are you just picking and choosing which things allah permitted were metaphors?

-- Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:21 pm --

shafique wrote:Did Jesus speak as a child - yes, this one is not scientifically rubbish - there are kids who speak whilst still sleeping in cradles.

But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who is a child in the cradle? He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live:

mumbles a one year old makes

What do you understand by the word 'Metaphorical'? You are aware that God says the Quran contains metaphorical verses, aren't you?

As I said, I don't believe any Quran contains any scientific absurdities - whereas you do believe the Bible's account that the sun stopped in the sky for a day (you call this a miracle).

So, given the fact that you believe a book containing scientific absurdities can't be the word of God - do you reject the Bible on these grounds, or are you a hypocrite?

(Edit, http://brainz.org/15-child-miracles-won ... prodigies/ has a report of a child prodigy who started speaking at 6 months, fluent at 12 and mastered a number of languages at 4. So speaking whilst a toddler isn't a scientific absurdity)

Cheers,
Shafique

Wow - just amazing.

So, who taught one day old Jesus how to talk, let alone form complex sentences, display advanced an advanced vocabulary and understanding of complex terms (claim he was a messenger of God, clear his mother of adult relationships, etc) ?

You're not actually trying to compare the two, are you?

Actually, the article says that the boy wasn't fluent in his native tongue until one years of age. At six months, he began to talk, but that can hardly be compared to the level of communication that one day old baby Jesus managed to master.

I am indeed a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

Pretty impressive for being only a few hours old !!!

You're losing it eh - try reading the verses again, where does God say that Jesus was talking when he was a few hours old?

LOL - I think you've realised that now you've admitted that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' you either have to say it is not the word of God, or that you are a hypocrite. You are desperate to try and convince me that the Quran also contains absurdities because you have admitted the Bible contains scientific absurdities.

God only says that Jesus talked whilst still in the cradle - and as shown in the example 12 month old children can be fluent - it's a sign that they are special, but it is not against science.

You see, rational Muslims can believe in miracles - but just believe that God does not need to violate the laws of nature to carry out the miracles (I mean that would be short-sighted of God to set laws that He'd need to violate). So, Jesus speaking/preaching as a toddler is not violating any laws of nature, but is still a sign from God.

So, here's your question from earlier in this thread:

event horizon wrote:So you agree with me that the Koran is scientifically inaccurate and therefore not the word of god.

No, I don't agree with you that the Quran is scientifically inaccurate, but given that you DO believe the Bible is scientifically inaccurate, do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God?

Cheers,
Shafique

Context snowball, context.

And the birthpangs surprised her by the trunk of the palm-tree. She said, 'Would I had died ere this, and become a thing forgotten!'

But the one that was below her called to her, 'Nay, do not sorrow; see, thy Lord has set below thee a rivulet.

Shake also to thee the palm-trunk, and there shall come tumbling upon thee dates fresh and ripe.

Eat therefore, and drink, and be comforted; and if thou shouldst see any mortal, say, "I have vowed to the All-merciful a fast, and today I will not speak to any man.

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing!

Sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a woman unchaste.'

Mary pointed to the child then; but they said, 'How shall we speak to one who is still in the cradle, a little child?'

He said, 'Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet.

Blessed He has made me, wherever I may be; and He has enjoined me to pray, and to give the alms, so long as I live,

and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant, unprosperous.

Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive!'

That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting.

Surely God is my Lord, and your Lord; So serve you Him. This is a straight path.

But the parties have fallen into variance among themselves; then woe to those who disbelieve for the scene of a dreadful day.

How well they will hear and see on the day they come to Us! But the evildoers even today are in error manifest...........

See, snowflake. Baby Jesus on the day he was born instructed Mary not to speak to any man, so that Jesus himself would do the talking.

The same day, as the passage says, Mary walked back to her village and she pointed to baby Jesus just as Jesus instructed her and he was the one to speak to Mary's family.

Nope, I don't agree. God does not say that Jesus was a day old when that incident occurred, only that Jesus was in the cradle.

But let's get this straight - now that you tell us you believe that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' are you just trying to show that the Quran shares these faults?

Again:

So, here's your question from earlier in this thread:

event horizon wrote:So you agree with me that the Koran is scientifically inaccurate and therefore not the word of god.

No, I don't agree with you that the Quran is scientifically inaccurate, but given that you DO believe the Bible is scientifically inaccurate, do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God? (or are you a hypocrite)

Simple question young one, no need to keep running away. It took you 4 months to reply to the question about the Bible saying the sun stopped in the sky for a day (to admit you had no scientific explanation), I trust it won't take as long to answer this question.

Cheers,
Shafique

God does not say that Jesus was a day old when that incident occurred, only that Jesus was in the cradle.

Unfortunately, allah does say that one day old Jesus was speaking.

If you read the context, this become clear as day.

But the one that was below her called to her, 'Nay, do not sorrow; see, thy Lord has set below thee a rivulet.

Shake also to thee the palm-trunk, and there shall come tumbling upon thee dates fresh and ripe.

Eat therefore, and drink, and be comforted; and if thou shouldst see any mortal, say, "I have vowed to the All-merciful a fast, and today I will not speak to any man.

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing!

So, Mary is instructed by Jesus not to speak to anyone. The Koran says the day that Jesus was born, Mary took Jesus home and Jesus was the one to speak to Mary's family.

No - God does not not say a day-old Jesus spoke. Please try and read more carefully.

So, let me repeat my question:

Given you now admit that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' and you argued that if the same applied to the Quran it would therefore not be the word of God - do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God or are you a hypocrite?
Two options:
1. You believe Bible is not the word of God because it describes the sun stopping in the sky for a day, and you believe this happened despite there being no scientific explanation for this,
2. You are a hypocrite.

Which is it?

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm sorry if you live in denial, but the Koran does say that day-old Jesus was able to speak.

Jesus was the one to speak to Mary in verse 19:24, telling Mary not to speak to any mortal for that day.

Later on, Mary returns home and Jesus speaks to her folks.

What's actually interesting from the story is that her own parents didn't know she was pregnant !

As I said, God does not say the incident happened when Jesus was a day old. You're the one that believes in 'miracles' that defy science, unfortunately for you, the Quran's description of miracles don't require rational Muslims to discard science.

So, let me repeat my question:

Given you now admit that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' and you argued that if the same applied to the Quran it would therefore not be the word of God - do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God or are you a hypocrite?
Two options:
1. You believe Bible is not the word of God because it describes the sun stopping in the sky for a day, and you believe this happened despite there being no scientific explanation for this,
2. You are a hypocrite.

Well, actually the Koran believes in miracles that defy science:

“When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to God, if ye are true believers. They said: We desire to eat of it and our hearts be at rest, and that We may know that you have spoken truth to us, and that We may be witnesses thereof. Jesus, son of Mary, said: 'O God, our Lord, send down for us a Table laden with food out of heaven, that shall be for us a recurring festival, the first and last of us, and a miracle from You. And provide us our sustenance, for You are the best of providers!” (Quran 5:112-114)

“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission.” (Quran 3:49)

“I also heal the blind and the leper.” (Quran 3:49)

“…and I bring to life the dead, by the permission of God.” (Quran 3:49)

But, what is interesting is your rejection of the clear verses in the Koran.

Let's review:

1) Mary gave birth under a date tree
2) Jesus, who was just born, told Mary to eat from the date tree she was laying under
3) Jesus also instructs Mary that when she returns home that day she should not speak to any mortal
4) The Koran says that Mary "then" returned home to her folks and they asked her of her pregnancy
5) Baby Jesus then has an amazing speaking role, where he displays complete fluency in his native tongue

It's also interesting that Mary's pregnancy seems to have been accelerated quite a bit - she seems to have given birth the same day she became pregnant.

As I keep repeating, God does not say that when the conversation took place Jesus was one day old.

One can imagine, speculate, postulate, loonify to one's heart's content, but it won't change the simple fact that God does not say Jesus was one day old. I repeat that I don't agree that the Quran contains scientific absurdities - whereas eh does believe the Bible contains scientific absurdities.

Therefore, the question that eh is still ducking (and I won't stop asking) remains:

Given you now admit that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' and you argued that if the same applied to the Quran it would therefore not be the word of God - do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God or are you a hypocrite?
Two options:
1. You believe Bible is not the word of God because it describes the sun stopping in the sky for a day, and you believe this happened despite there being no scientific explanation for this,
2. You are a hypocrite.

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm sorry, but the Koran does say that Jesus spoke the same day he was born.

Ignoring the context provided won't make your denial any more compelling.

And the birthpangs surprised her by the trunk of the palm-tree. She said, 'Would I had died ere this, and become a thing forgotten!'

But the one that was below her called to her, 'Nay, do not sorrow; see, thy Lord has set below thee a rivulet.

Shake also to thee the palm-trunk, and there shall come tumbling upon thee dates fresh and ripe.

Eat therefore, and drink, and be comforted; and if thou shouldst see any mortal, say, "I have vowed to the All-merciful a fast, and today I will not speak to any man.

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing!

Sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a woman unchaste.'

Mary pointed to the child then; but they said, 'How shall we speak to one who is still in the cradle, a little child?'

He said, 'Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet.

Blessed He has made me, wherever I may be; and He has enjoined me to pray, and to give the alms, so long as I live,

and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant, unprosperous.

Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive!'

If you have any questions, please refer to the highlighted parts of the quoted text - the Koran says that Mary gave birth, Jesus spoke to her under the tree she gave birth to him from, the same day, Mary returned to the village and Jesus spoke again.

Thanks for showing clearly that God does NOT say that the incident took place when Jesus was one day old.

The fact you wish to infer this based on one word that merely signifies it took place afterwards, is just another example of you wishing to believe an interpretation as definite fact.

Therefore, the question that eh is still ducking (and I won't stop asking) remains:

Given you now admit that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' and you argued that if the same applied to the Quran it would therefore not be the word of God - do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God or are you a hypocrite?
Two options:
1. You believe Bible is not the word of God because it describes the sun stopping in the sky for a day, and you believe this happened despite there being no scientific explanation for this,
2. You are a hypocrite.


Cheers,
Shafique

You must have missed the parts that were quoted.

Jesus spoke to Mary the day she gave birth to him and Mary later on went home that day - as the Koran says - where Jesus spoke again, this time to Mary's relatives.

You seem to be having a failure in reading young lad. Go back and read again, there is nothing in God's words that says that Jesus had the conversation when he was one day old. Fail.

Therefore, the question that eh is still ducking (and I won't stop asking) remains:


Given you now admit that the Bible contains 'scientific absurdities' and you argued that if the same applied to the Quran it would therefore not be the word of God - do you therefore believe the Bible is not the word of God or are you a hypocrite?
Two options:
1. You believe Bible is not the word of God because it describes the sun stopping in the sky for a day, and you believe this happened despite there being no scientific explanation for this,
2. You are a hypocrite.


So, which is it?