outworldish wrote:Apple Pie wrote:outworldish wrote:Apple Pie wrote:وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?
exactly who is translating these verses for you?
We are...
I am using the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali which is the most widely used translations. He translated during 1934-37 in Lahore, A Learned Sunni Muslim Scholar.
Since when does
"popularity" equate to correctness?
It does not.
Let’s look at this simple example from the very same translator that you chose to use with 4.157.
Pay close attention to this ayah, which has not one, not two, not three, but four instances of “wama”…
Qooloo amanna biAllahi
wama onzila ilayna
wama onzila ila ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa wayaAAqooba waal-asbati
wama ootiya moosa waAAeesa
wama ootiya alnnabiyyoona min rabbihim la nufarriqu bayna ahadin minhum wanahnu lahu muslimoona
2.136 Yusuf Ali
Say ye: "We believe in Allah,
and the revelation given to us,
and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,
and that given to Moses and Jesus,
and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Observe that Yusuf Ali chose
NOT to render “wama” as a negative in
four out of four instances.
Thus, according to the flawed Islamic mindset that has been applied to 4.157, then this ayah should read…
Say ye: "We believe in Allah,
and NOT the revelation given to us,
and NOT Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,
and NOT given to Moses and Jesus,
and NOT given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Thus...
How exactly would you like to defend the renderings of Yusuf Ali now...?
and out of context means that you did not read the next verse as follows
004.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
Actually, the context follows that of the Gospel of Luke.
Further, context does not deny a crucifixion event at all.
Further still, please show us the Arabic word(s) rendered as "in boast".
Thanks...
The context says that it was made seem to them that they crucified Jesus
and plus i am giving u references , whereas you are just editing the translations by your own.
Observe...
4.157وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama
salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed Him, and that they crucified Him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.This is the quintessential Islamic ayah used by Muslims in an attempt to thwart Jesus’ crucifixion, until death, upon the Cross.
This ayah has been misinterpreted and promoted as a crucifixion denial, when, in fact, it is a Biblical confirmation that Jesus’ crucifixion, and death, upon the Cross, actually did take place.
Rendering 4.157 as a crucifixion denial, forces the Koran into contradiction with itself.
4.157 contains a plethora of positive affirmations, including “wama”, and leaves
no doubt in the mind of the reader that Jesus was killed upon the Cross.
Observe this most revealing term, from 4.157, used in reference to Jesus Christ…
اختلفوا = “ikhtalafoo”
“ikhtalafoo” definition:
Masculine plural.
They followed, or succeeded one another; whenever one went, another coming after him. The going, or moving repeatedly to and fro; so coming and going; or reciprocating. The returning, or repairing, time after time, or repeatedly, or frequently to a person or place; because it implies coming and going; and sometimes it means simply the returning; because this cannot be without a previous going. They disagreed in a thing or an affair or a case; every one of them took to, or held a way, or opinion, different from or contrary to that of another; both signify the same.
It comes from the root “khahafa”, which means
he came after, followed, succeeded, or remained after another or another that had perished or died. He, a man, retired, withdrew, or went away or apart. He fled. He ascended a mountain; to succeed,
take the place of, be the agent, substitute of. A substitute; a thing given, or received, or put, or done, instead of, in place of, or in exchange for, another thing. Difference of any kind.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 792 - 799
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 162 - 163Here we have a solid-gold confirmation that Jesus indeed died on the Cross, as the root confirms that His followers remained after
He died on the Cross!
Further, the root also confirms to us that Jesus was the sin substitution for mankind!
Further still, we have a clause (flanked by “ma”), which can be rendered as a negative adverb confirming that there is “no doubt” about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ…
شك = “shakkin”
“shakkin” definition:
Doubt; a wavering or vacillation in opinion between two things, whether they be equal in probability or such that one of them outweighs therein the other; or uncertainty; or a wavering or vacillation in opinion between two inconsistent things without making either of them to outweigh the other in the estimation of him who conceives the doubt; a pausing or hesitation between two extremes that are equal in probability without the mind’s inclining to either of them. Alternation or confusedness of two inconsistent things, in the judgment of a man, and their being equal. A state of commotion or disturbance of the heart and mind. A small crack in a bone. A seam, or line of sewing, of a garment. Arsenic. A covering that is put upon the backs of the two curved extremities of the bow.
It comes from the root “shakka”, which means the thing, or case, or affair, was, or became, dubious, or confused. He doubted, wavered or vacillated in opinion, or was uncertain respecting it. Said of a camel, he limped or halted; or had a slight lameness of his hind leg: or his arm stuck to his side, and he had a slight lameness in consequence thereof. The cleaving or sticking of a thing to another thing.
I pierced, or transpierced him, or it, with a spear, and with the arrow. He was made, or asserted to be connected with the lineage of another.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1582 - 1583
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 297 Amazing as it is, the root of this word gives us further insight that Jesus was pierced in the side – same as declared in the Holy Bible.
and for ur information "wama" means AND "walaa" means NOT
Wrong.
ما = “ma”
“ma” definition:
Conjunctive pronoun.
That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136