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Yep.....I agree with Madd (except for the part of the 70 year old.....). Leave the conspiracy theories out. I'll think about your 'rant' I'll give a reply to that too. But now you're talking!!!

Princess Banana Hammock wrote:It was set up by Americans during WW2 I think. And lets face it, Israel is just another American state...

Why don't the US build a Dubai style state and give ship all the Israelis out there... they have the money to do it. Hell, they give Israel $400 billion a year, surely they can make a damn good state in the Arizonian desert for that much!!

America... run by Jews...

The American government once had a plan to have the world ruled under one government... do you think that plan is still in place? Because the only resistance to that I can see are a few countries in the ME...

i love what ur saying ... i have to agree.. i wish theres more people like u

A good article on the subject in Gulf News today :

Might Not Always Right:
http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10055204.html

Thought provoking analysis of the Hezbollah/Israel situation..

What is important is that the Europeans attempted to send their Jews to South America, then Uganda before deciding on Palestine and the creation of Israel. This is amusing, considering Uganda not so long ago offered the Jews their country as their home. Neddless to say, it was turned down...

Ever since, neither Jews nor Palestinians have seen peace. Wars and bloodshed have been the norm. Destruction never stopped.

If that solution is not viable because of the last 50 years of bloodshed, then perhaps America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, which desperately need new citizens and are great supporters of Israel, can accommodate Jews. You see, I think this would be a great idea... But unfortunately Palestine is the key to the resistance to the Jews having world domination. I know it sounds 'Pinky and the Brain' but I believe it's true. It's not like Palestine has a strong economy and plenty of oil to find... so why chose Palestine over Uganda?

The world, and more so, the Jews themselves, must seriously consider alternative solutions to their predicament.

Israel might continue to win battles, but it is very unlikely that it will win the war in the long run. Haha, in come Nostradamus's predictions!!!

Faced with an evolving Arab world of 300 million people and counting, whose antagonism, anger and hatred it provokes, Israel's long term survival is hardly worth taking a bet on.

Interesting article...

MaaaD wrote: The UN is just as dysfunctional as a 70 year old man in bed.

a very soft and wishy washy 70 year old man at that. they even reneged their comments after their UN Base was destroyed by Israelis

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/26072006/6/n ... ttack.html

Also 87% of those killed in Lebanon are civilians and 85% of the Israelis killed are Military soldiers, just an interesting fact to ponder especially considering who has the more technologically advanced weapons

kanelli wrote:But you see, I have already said that Israel has over-reacted and what they are doing is terrible. I posted that a few times!
....
Thanks Fayz, I too think this thread is educational. I like to read and understand other people's perspectives. Good arguments and more info can persuade people to consider new perspectives.

Yes you did mention that, I've read it. You’ve also gone as far as saying if Israel went to the UN approved borders there would be peace. I appreciate your views and agree.

I also really like your last comment and agree with that.

I have to believe that “all we are saying is give peace a chance” can one day be more than just a song.

Now this interesting even israelis know they are already losing the war

http://www.fuckfrance.com/topic/2182447 ... L-WIN.html

Corcovado wrote:Now this interesting even israelis know they are already losing the war

http://www.fuckfrance.com/topic/2182447 ... L-WIN.html

Jeez, looking at the avatars on that forum site me.

fayz wrote:

Corcovado wrote:Now this interesting even israelis know they are already losing the war

http://www.fuckfrance.com/topic/2182447 ... L-WIN.html

Jeez, looking at the avatars on that forum site me.

yes very true

f*ckfrance.com = Disgusting and TACKY.

It's no secret that the US has a history of anti-semitism and it's still quite existant, but all of that gets conveniently ignored amongst non-Jewish supporters of Zionism.

But I honestly prefer to hear people speak what they truly believe in, even if it's racist crap, outright lies and parroting rhetoric, than if they "pretend" to be something they're not. Like some people pretending to be neutral, peace-loving, etc. when it's obvious that they're not. Yeah....WHATEVER.

freza wrote:But I honestly prefer to hear people speak what they truly believe in, even if it's racist crap, outright lies and parroting rhetoric, than if they "pretend" to be something they're not. Like some people pretending to be neutral, peace-loving, etc. when it's obvious that they're not. Yeah....WHATEVER.

So let me get that straight, you are okay with lies, racism, and parroting rhetoric (=spreading propaganda?). Wow, how admirable.

Just because you can't handle anyone who doesn't feel that Americans and Israelis should be wiped off the planet doesn't mean that they are not entitled to their viewpoints. Peace is a bad word to some people, and maybe you are one of them. There isn't much I can do about that. I have condemned Israel and the US for their actions but I guess that is just me "pretending" isn't it.

kanelli wrote:

freza wrote:But I honestly prefer to hear people speak what they truly believe in, even if it's racist crap, outright lies and parroting rhetoric, than if they "pretend" to be something they're not. Like some people pretending to be neutral, peace-loving, etc. when it's obvious that they're not. Yeah....WHATEVER.

So let me get that straight, you are okay with lies, racism, and parroting rhetoric (=spreading propaganda?). Wow, how admirable.

Just because you can't handle anyone who doesn't feel that Americans and Israelis should be wiped off the planet doesn't mean that they are not entitled to their viewpoints. Peace is a bad word to some people, and maybe you are one of them. There isn't much I can do about that. I have condemned Israel and the US for their actions but I guess that is just me "pretending" isn't it.

yes but kanneli this tells u that the hate is Mutual and they feel the same way about arabs and muslims ... Arabs believe that israel is the source of evil and hate and they are killing our people evryday..while jews and americans think that arabs are terrorists ... Now u can see the big picture

Of course, I know that each side is demonising the other. How else could they stop seeing each other as fellow humans and proceed to kill each other. Demonising on all sides is wrong!

Here is what I think is the problem and solution: IGNORANCE.

There are quite a few posters ranting about things from different perspectives but I suspect a lot of it has to do with Ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity). Those who hate Arabs or Jews have probably not dealt much with them on a day-to-day basis. I suspect that many in the forum have met people from all over the world (if in Dubai) and if they care to know where the other person is from will by in large have a positive opinion of that person (and country and religion, etc.).

I bet of a lot of the "West Haters" on this forum were either educated or lived in western society and outside of the forum act "western" - just a hunch. But those of you who have met each other could probably confirm what I just wrote!

The more people of different races, natianalities, religions, etc. interact with each other, the best the change for peace.

I don't think its ignorance that causes hate - sometimes the more informed you are the more you hate the injustices that are carried out.

Also, there are many who have absolutely no problem with 'Western' culture and values when it comes to technology, clothing, music etc and have great relations with nationals of America or Europe BUT have a great problem with US/UK foreign policy. Hey, many Americans and Brits have big issues with what their respective governments are doing.

Where there is perceived injustice, there is a breeding ground for hatred. Give everyone equal rights and opportunities, and you will find that the preaching of hatred-mongers (on all sides) generally falls on deaf ears. Where there is real injustice that is apparent to all, calls to attack or demonise those who are causing the injustice are like siren calls - very, very hard to resist.

Note that the Israeli young conscripts all seem to be very proud to defend their country from their perspective - what do people expect will be the choices of the young Lebanese men who want to do likewise? The answer is patently obvious - join the resistance that drove out the Americans AND the Israelis in the past.

I therefore contend that the root of hatred is injustice and not ignorance. If the injustice is only a perceived one and not a real one, then there is an arguement that ignorance is contributing to the hatred, of course, but I would argue strongly that ignorance is not the root cause (certainly not in the case of Israel, Palestine and Lebanon).

Just my views, as usual.

I disagree I No Jack.

Ignorance is not the problem here, as generally speaking, those who are ignorant do not have an opinion on the matter, nor do they think the situation has an effect on them. Besides nobody is 100% in the know as there are many secret/hidden agendas within governments. So almost all of us are ignorant to some degree... Also it is almost impossible to read every single news piece around the world to define everybody's view on the situation.

I have been brought up in the UK all my life and therefore I do "act in a Western way" when it comes to my social skills/life. However, I disagree with the majority of the political policies and ideologies where it concerns the Middle East.

I am not a Jew/Israeli hater, but I certainly am not a supporter. But having worked in the Entertainment industry in the UK, I have dealt with many of them on a daily basis. I worked for a comapany for a year which was run by Israeli Jews. I even dated an Israeli Jew who was in the Israeli army in my late teens. Despite that, I still disagree with their state's arrogance and brutality.

As for peace, it is unobtainable. People will continue to fight and prevail for what they think is theirs or their right. This has happened since the beginning of time, after all, we are just like any other animal on this planet... Fighting for survival.

kanelli wrote:

freza wrote:But I honestly prefer to hear people speak what they truly believe in, even if it's racist crap, outright lies and parroting rhetoric, than if they "pretend" to be something they're not. Like some people pretending to be neutral, peace-loving, etc. when it's obvious that they're not. Yeah....WHATEVER.

So let me get that straight, you are okay with lies, racism, and parroting rhetoric (=spreading propaganda?). Wow, how admirable.

Just because you can't handle anyone who doesn't feel that Americans and Israelis should be wiped off the planet doesn't mean that they are not entitled to their viewpoints. Peace is a bad word to some people, and maybe you are one of them. There isn't much I can do about that. I have condemned Israel and the US for their actions but I guess that is just me "pretending" isn't it.

To put you straight, NO, I am not OK with liars, racism and people that parrot the rhetoric that the US and Israeli admin (and even the softy wannabe left) spew. But I'd rather listen to the TRUE intentions and thoughts of people than their phoniness.

This comment was not meant for you, but you sure took it to heart. Poorly concealed support for state terrorism and blatant bias are everywhere, one just has to open the New York Times to find it there. Anyway, it wasn't for you personally but if the shoe fits, go ahead and wear it, and be proud of it. I personally won't think any less of you or any other person if they were to come out of the neo-con closet.

Am I for peace? Of course. But I'm also realistic. Israel does not want peace; it is more than obvious. The only way to deal with Israel now is to give them a taste of their own medicine...and hope that this finally does work.

shafique wrote:I don't think its ignorance that causes hate - sometimes the more informed you are the more you hate the injustices that are carried out.

Also, there are many who have absolutely no problem with 'Western' culture and values when it comes to technology, clothing, music etc and have great relations with nationals of America or Europe BUT have a great problem with US/UK foreign policy. Hey, many Americans and Brits have big issues with what their respective governments are doing.

Where there is perceived injustice, there is a breeding ground for hatred. Give everyone equal rights and opportunities, and you will find that the preaching of hatred-mongers (on all sides) generally falls on deaf ears. Where there is real injustice that is apparent to all, calls to attack or demonise those who are causing the injustice are like siren calls - very, very hard to resist.

Note that the Israeli young conscripts all seem to be very proud to defend their country from their perspective - what do people expect will be the choices of the young Lebanese men who want to do likewise? The answer is patently obvious - join the resistance that drove out the Americans AND the Israelis in the past.

I therefore contend that the root of hatred is injustice and not ignorance. If the injustice is only a perceived one and not a real one, then there is an arguement that ignorance is contributing to the hatred, of course, but I would argue strongly that ignorance is not the root cause (certainly not in the case of Israel, Palestine and Lebanon).

Just my views, as usual.

Agree with you particularly with the last full paragraph - and that is my point.

princess banana Hammock wrote:I disagree I No Jack.

Ignorance is not the problem here, as generally speaking, those who are ignorant do not have an opinion on the matter, nor do they think the situation has an effect on them. Besides nobody is 100% in the know as there are many secret/hidden agendas within governments. So almost all of us are ignorant to some degree... Also it is almost impossible to read every single news piece around the world to define everybody's view on the situation.

I have been brought up in the UK all my life and therefore I do "act in a Western way" when it comes to my social skills/life. However, I disagree with the majority of the political policies and ideologies where it concerns the Middle East.

I am not a Jew/Israeli hater, but I certainly am not a supporter. But having worked in the Entertainment industry in the UK, I have dealt with many of them on a daily basis. I worked for a comapany for a year which was run by Israeli Jews. I even dated an Israeli Jew who was in the Israeli army in my late teens. Despite that, I still disagree with their state's arrogance and brutality.

As for peace, it is unobtainable. People will continue to fight and prevail for what they think is theirs or their right. This has happened since the beginning of time, after all, we are just like any other animal on this planet... Fighting for survival.

Actually we agree. I'm sure with your experiences with different people you have different positions (or reasons for them - some personal, some more general).

Freza, don't play games. It is obvious that you were speaking about me and some others who were not saying incredible things about Israel and the US out of passion and anger.

Shafique and Jack, I think you are both correct. Injustice is likely the root, but ignorance can play a role as well.

I'm definitely one of those people who is not impressed with my government's response and the way it is teaming up with the likes of the US. (Fayz, it really does make me wonder what Chretien would be doing if he was still PM.)

Injustice is without question a source of hate, but I don't think you can discount ignorance. Racism, bigotry, prejudice - they are all based on ignorance.

Princess I don't agree with you the peace is unattainable. If Jordan and Egypt can live mutually in peace with Israel, there is no reason why their can't be overall peace. Even if its a peace with guarded boarders, high walls and barbed wire, its better than war.

mraph33 wrote:Injustice is without question a source of hate, but I don't think you can discount ignorance. Racism, bigotry, prejudice - they are all based on ignorance.

Princess I don't agree with you the peace is unattainable. If Jordan and Egypt can live mutually in peace with Israel, there is no reason why their can't be overall peace. Even if its a peace with guarded boarders, high walls and barbed wire, its better than war.

ok answer this ... how do u expect us to have peace with killers, who stole our country , killing innocence on perpose ,and destroyed our homes ..??
everyday israel kills a minimum of 35 innocent people in palestine and lebanon for no reason ..they abuse their powers..and aim on children and civillians... they built this racist wall in palestine destroying homes and farms in their way coldblooded .. THEY ARE THE NEW NAZIES .. i dont think we are ready for peace. not now not ever ..cos there is so much to forgive and forgivness is the last thing on our minds...PLEASE watch the news.

Corcovado wrote: .. i dont think we are ready for peace. not now not ever ..cos there is so much to forgive and forgivness is the last thing on our minds...PLEASE watch the news.

The good thing is that while You may not be ready for peace there are millions who must be ready.

If israel, US, UK hate arabs/muslims, how come they are not bombing Dubai, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, egypt, indonisia, pakistan, etc. etc.?

I-No-Jack wrote:

Corcovado wrote: .. i dont think we are ready for peace. not now not ever ..cos there is so much to forgive and forgivness is the last thing on our minds...PLEASE watch the news.

The good thing is that while You may not be ready for peace there are millions who must be ready.

If israel, US, UK hate arabs/muslims, how come they are not bombing Dubai, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, egypt, indonisia, pakistan, etc. etc.?

i think its better for u to remain silent cos u have no idea whats going on... and if u think millions want peace with israel then ur wrong So WRONG

Corcovado wrote:i think its better for u to remain silent cos u have no idea whats going on... and if u think millions want peace with israel then ur wrong So WRONG

I'm not 100% right but not as wrong as you are.

Lebanese lives arent worth much

Today's lead story in The New York Times contains a moving quote from Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora:

"Is the value of human life less in Lebanon than that of citizens elsewhere? Are we children of a lesser god? Is an Israeli teardrop worth more than a drop of Lebanese blood?"

He knows the answer to that; it's yes. With Condi Rice diminishing the value of a temporary cease-fire--which would save the lives of some Lebanese civilians--Washington is clearly saying that there is no value in protecting these civilians killed in Israel's attacks on Hezbollah.

http://www.davidcorn.com/archives/2006/ ... _blood.php

Unfortunately, the question seems to be how many Lebanese civilian lives are worth the destruction of Hezbollah? That is how the US is thinking. They want Hezbollah gone and don't seem to care what needs to be done to achieve that. Civials are likely considered "collateral damage".

as a journalist a few days ago said ...

"let the water boil.. and then add rice"

kanelli wrote:Unfortunately, the question seems to be how many Lebanese civilian lives are worth the destruction of Hezbollah? That is how the US is thinking. They want Hezbollah gone and don't seem to care what needs to be done to achieve that. Civials are likely considered "collateral damage".

What i dont understand in the thinking you just described is that no two politicians/analysts will disagree that with the current strategy i dont see hezbollah anywhere near destruction.

As i type, i am listening to interviews with mums who have lost there young children and the interviewer asked her if she is fed up with the fighting. she said that one of her children is dead, but she would gladly give away the other 3 for the resistance. This kind of resolve amazes me.

Yes, and it goes to show that the USA has their head up their asses again. They want to reshape the politics in the Middle East, wiping out groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. but it isn't going to work. If they try to make something like that work, we will have more extremists, new groups, and possibly WW3.