Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed

Topic locked
  • Reply
Islamic Banking - creating loopholes to succeed May 25, 2011
Islamic banking supposedly sets itself apart from traditional banking in that interest is not charged on loans.

In other words, Muslims claim Islamic banking is not 'creating money from money', which they say is prohibited in the Koran.

Early attempts at following the Koran in an Islamic system of banking that strived to compete with the West met with failure in the early 20th century.

Muslim bankers quickly formulated new ways of generating money that in principle work the same way as interest - 'creating money from money'.

One of these loopholes is 'murabaha'. This article explains the practice better than I could:

The chief loophole was murabaha. Let’s say that you, a small businessman, wish to go into business selling cars. A conventional bank would examine your credit history and, if all was acceptable, grant you a cash loan. You would incur an obligation to return the funds on a specific maturity date, paying interest each month along the way. When you signed the note and made the promise, you would use the proceeds to buy the cars—and meet your other expenses—yourself. But in a murabaha transaction, instead of just cutting you the check, the bank itself would buy the cars. You promise to buy them from the bank at a higher price on a future date—like a futures contract in the commodities market. The markup is justified by the fact that, for a period, the bank owns the property, thus assuming liability. At no point in the transaction is money treated as a commodity, as it is in a normal loan.

But here’s the catch: most Muslim scholars agree that there is no minimum time interval for the bank to own the property before selling it to you at the markup. According to Timur Kuran, the typical interval is “under a millisecond.” The bank transfers ownership of the asset to its client right away. The client still pays a fixed markup at a later date, a payment that is usually secured by some sort of collateral or by other forms of contractual coercion. Thus, in practice, murabaha is a normal loan.

Since murabaha must be asset-based, however, it can’t help a small businessman who needs a working-capital loan, for example, to provide cash on hand to meet payroll or other expenses. To get such capital from an Islamic financial institution, an entrepreneur would have to sell the bank an equity interest in his business. This is far riskier for the bank and thus much harder to obtain.


In other words, a bank will buy property from a client and then mark up the value of the property the bank just purchased. The client has agreed to buy the marked up item back from the bank at a later date.

In essence, Islamic banking has created a round about way of issuing loans.

Not only is murabaha effectively a form of interest, it is also the primary source of income for Islamic banks:

The experts tell me that every Islamic bank has at least three-quarters of its investments structured as murabaha. Even the inaptly named Islamic Development Bank was, as of the mid-1980s, doing four-fifths of its business through murabaha, and only 1 percent through equity transactions.


http://www.american.com/archive/2007/ma ... ly-kosher/

event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 25, 2011
Sooo...Are you NOW going to tell us what your doing here ? Or shall I wait for a few more critiques :D
desertdudeshj
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 6258

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 25, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:Sooo...Are you NOW going to tell us what your doing here ? Or shall I wait for a few more critiques :D


Discusing Islamic banking :D
Bethsmum
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
Posts: 6601
Location: JBR

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 25, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:Sooo...Are you NOW going to tell us what your doing here ? Or shall I wait for a few more critiques :D


Image
Bora Bora
Dubai OverLord
User avatar
Posts: 8411
Location: At the moment Dubai Forums

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 25, 2011
Bethsmum wrote:
desertdudeshj wrote:Sooo...Are you NOW going to tell us what your doing here ? Or shall I wait for a few more critiques :D


Discusing Islamic banking :D


not loopholes !!!!! :lol:
Mahmoud04
Dubai chat master
User avatar
Posts: 713

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
do readup before defecating on this thread..

Image

http://goo.gl/HF8fB <- Full textbook pdf form
zubber
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1459
Location: x222222

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
zubber wrote:do readup before defecating on this thread..


Yes Zubber, stop crapping on EH's topic! Go start your own! No, don't bother, most get zero replies :(
Bethsmum
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
Posts: 6601
Location: JBR

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
:roll:

Yet another case of missing the wood for the trees.

For centuries the Christian church also banned interest and usury. With good reason.

Islamic banking and finance is based on some simple principles that can easily be looked up. Had the financial system just 4 years ago been based on these principles (all make sound economic sense) - the financial crisis would not have happened.

Goodhart's law applies to Islamic finance as well as other forms of finance or economics - i.e. loopholes exist in all jurisdictions and should be exceptions not the rule. When they become effectively the rule (such as unregulated derivative markets) then the systems become very unstable - hence the need for proper regulation. This applies to Islamic and non-Islamic finance alike.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - creating loopholes to succeed May 26, 2011
Off topic commentary is fascinating, but I see the issue of Islamic banks effectively charging interest through murabaha has been sidestepped.

Islamic banks marking up the price of a good - ie., creating money from money - is no different, though less efficient, than traditional bank loans that directly charge interest.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
Islamic banks shouldn't charge interest - as that is forbidden.

Bankers trying to get round regulations is hardly news or even new. Next you'll be revealing that lawyers lie and Guru Bob constructs fantasies about Islam. (all facts that are self-evident).

IF some banks try to bend the rules, the regulators should stop them - they should follow both the spirit and the letter of the regulations.

Whether Islamic banks are charging interest depends on whether one is inclined to believe the usual bible-camp fantasies or are willing to do a bit of research and critical thinking. (Some banks are indeed effectively charging interest - I've had many a discussion with Islamic bankers on this point. But not all, and not all Islamic scholars agree with the flagrant loopholes.)

Mudarabah is a legitimate way for Islamic finance to work - the bank buys the asset and allows the customer to purchase it in effectively a 'hire-purchase' arrangement. However, it can be misused.

Woods/Trees folks, woods/trees. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - creating loopholes to succeed May 26, 2011
In the Islamic terminology interest means effortless profit or that profit which comes free from compensation or that extra earning obtained that is free of exchange. Hazrat Shah Waliullah Dehlvi a great scholar and leader has given a very concise and precise definition of interest. He says,

"Riba` is a loan with the condition that the borrower will return to the lender more than and better than the quantity borrowed."


http://www.inter-islam.org/Prohibitions/intrst.htm

Let me know how murabaha is not interest in Islamic terminology.

Islamic banks make money from money.

The banks are practicing interest by purchasing an item and immediately marking the price up and having the client buy it back at a later date.

There's no difference between that practice and what traditional banks do.

As the author concludes, '[t]hus, in practice, murabaha is a normal loan.'
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
shafique wrote:Islamic banking and finance is based on some simple principles that can easily be looked up. Had the financial system just 4 years ago been based on these principles (all make sound economic sense) - the financial crisis would not have happened.


ImageImageImage

Shafique bother not in trying to explain islamic finance to people who barely know anything about standard economics !
zubber
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1459
Location: x222222

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
Stil waiting.....
desertdudeshj
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 6258

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
zubber wrote:
shafique wrote:Islamic banking and finance is based on some simple principles that can easily be looked up. Had the financial system just 4 years ago been based on these principles (all make sound economic sense) - the financial crisis would not have happened.


ImageImageImage

Shafique bother not in trying to explain islamic finance to people who barely know anything about standard economics !


I thought the author of the article demonstrated his knowledge in economics quite well.

Care to offer a rebuttal to show off your 'superior' (lol) education in economics to others?

The 800 lb gorilla in the room everyone is avoiding is how murabaha is effectively different from interest someone pays on a loan.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:Stil waiting.....



So you are LOL!

-- Thu May 26, 2011 10:22 pm --

Care to offer a rebuttal to show off your 'superior' (lol) education in economics to others?


C'mon Zubber! Lets hear it then!
Bethsmum
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
Posts: 6601
Location: JBR

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 26, 2011
event horizon wrote:Care to offer a rebuttal to show off your 'superior' (lol) education in economics to others?


My rebuttal --> GET A LIFE !
zubber
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1459
Location: x222222

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - Creating Loopholes To Succeed May 27, 2011
zubber wrote:
event horizon wrote:Care to offer a rebuttal to show off your 'superior' (lol) education in economics to others?


My rebuttal --> GET A LIFE !


Intelligent input Zubber!
Bethsmum
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
Posts: 6601
Location: JBR

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - creating loopholes to succeed May 27, 2011
Image
zubber
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1459
Location: x222222

  • Reply
Re: Islamic Banking - creating loopholes to succeed May 27, 2011
Oh dear! Do not question Islam, do not collect £100, do not pass go!
Bethsmum
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
Posts: 6601
Location: JBR

posting in Philosophy and Religion ForumsForum Rules

Return to Philosophy and Religion Forums


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Last post