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kanelli ... you are welcome

kanelli wrote:Aren't we being ignorant and arrogant to blame only one nation and its people for all the ills of the world, overlooking our own nation's hypocricy and own contributions to world or regional problems?

Nothing on the scale of the US....

I mean please, you expect me to beleive that insignificant dipshit countries like Canada, Lebanon, Suriname, Luxembourg, or Chad for example have any contribution to regional or world problems...

Here are some examples of bad behaviour on the part of Canadians. Don't you think these have repercussions inside and outside the country?

Canadian engineering multinational convicted of bribery in Africa
http://www.odiousdebts.org/odiousdebts/ ... entID=5419

Here is an excellent quote from the article:
"If western governments get tough with convicted bribers, multinational firms will get the message that corruption is costly, and that will spell the end of corruption on Third World development projects. If western governments don't get tough, corruption will continue to thrive. We in the West will be seen as hypocrites who preach clean government to the Third World while tolerating corruption among our own corporations," says Ms. Adams.

Aboriginals continue to struggle for their rights
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aboriginals/

Abuse and murder in Somalia - The Somalia Affair
http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDD-1-7 ... r/somalia/

Well per capita Canadians are little angels compared to Americans. Most countries with the exception of the thorn in our ass on the Easter shores of the Mediteraneans are angels too comparativly.

Dominance, money, ignorance, arrogance - all are part of human nature. Every country has its own examples of crises related to these negative characteristics.

Who is to say that Canada, Lebanon or whichever country wouldn't act like the US if they had as much money, influence and military power as the US currently does? Look at history...

Because socialogically speaking, American culture is that of the ignorant sheep. This is not insult but fact, Americans rely on their leaders more than any other source for their information.

By default, Canadians, Lebanese, or anyone else are much more wary of their government and take what they say with a grain of salt, relying rather on other sources for information.

I am, of course, speaking in a general sense.

I can say for all the countries I've lived in, there are about 6, the general trend is to support what I've said.

I don't think they rely on their leaders for information - I think it is a case of America being more patriotic. Patriotic meaning that they stick by their leader and have more trust in their leader than perhaps other countries do.

Untrue. Trust me when I say that Greek people or Moroccans for example are extremily patriotic. Yet they are not mules.

shafique wrote:

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:Folks, I readily admit that my perceptions of Islam may have been skewed by my association with radical islamists since 9/11

SNIP

I am not ignorant of the facts regarding the manipulation of the Middle East by the Western Powers.

...

I do hope you will instruct me further and broaden my views on Islam.
Yet, you must admit the worst of Islam is what is brought out into the conciousness of the world recently and (at least here in the West) it appears that the moderate, rational Muslim community does nothing to negate these concepts.

Richard, I'm glad that your journey has brought you to this forum. I hope that when you find preconceived perceptions to be mistaken, you will change your views and convey these mini-epithanies to all your contacts and compatriots.

I urge you to go back and re-read my posts to you - especially the early ones where I take pains to give you examples of terrorist activities amongst all religious groups.

There are many westerners on this forum and all of the guys I've spoken to here do not make the link that Arab = terrorist or that Islam = terrorism.

I think that your statements quoted above are widely held views in the States and in some parts of Europe. However, note that those people here who have daily contact with Muslims are telling you in no uncertain terms that these views are wrong.

Can you please ponder on the simple point that all IRA terrorist activities were done by Catholics - and yet, has anyone equated Catholicism with terrorism? I don't think even the Protestant targets made this connection.

Now, for people to continue to believe a falsehood when faced with clear and unequivocable evidence of the truth is a tragedy. It could also reflect xenophobia at worst, and just low down ignorance at best.

My assessment is that it is the latter that afflicts your countrymen - ignorance and arrogance (the American way IS the best way and let's not allow any facts to get in the way).

I hope I am wrong in my assessment - and there are many American colleagues of mine who are educated and well informed - but your statments above aren't the first time I've come across these views.

I commend you for at least asking the questions. I hope you listen to the answers. I hope you hear what is said.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Thank You for your kindness and patience.
I generally do not equate ISLAM with Terrorism, only to the point where the Terrorists EXCLAIM how they justify their actions being in accordance with ISLAM.
Your example above of the IRA & Catholicism lacks the motivation along Religious grounds.
Although the competing sides were separated by Catholics & Protestants, niether side made the claim they were fighting anything more than occupation by Britain.

I actually harbored no "preconceived perceptions" of ISLAM prior to my searching for answers after 9/11.
I thought I had found a voice & face of ISLAM when I came across http://www.ummah.net/forum/
What I found was 'Death to all non-muslims' at every turn.

There is a bright side to my association @ http://www.ummah.net/forum/
I met, fell in love with and currently am living with a Muslim woman I met on that board.

However, note that those people here who have daily contact with Muslims are telling you in no uncertain terms that these views are wrong.

I have lived most of my life IN and around Dearborn, Michigan, America's Muslim Capitol
http://www.americancity.org/article.php?id_article=72

Liban wrote:

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:You can see my signature below : In a Democracy, Silence IS Permission
The same can be said of ISLAM.
In ISLAM, Silence IS Permission

You are stepping on very thin ice Richard. I will be careful now.
Read the rules... Insulting/flaming results in a locked post. This is a flame of Islam.
You have been warned.

I do most humbly appologise if you interpreted my stating :
In ISLAM, Silence IS Permission
as being ANTI-ISLAMIC as that was not my intention.

I am unsure how you came to regard my words as Anti-Islamic though.
Please explain so I do not make the same mistake again.

kanelli wrote:I agree with much of what you say Shafique, except one point. It isn't just Americans who feel that they know everything - who are ignorant and arrogant. This is a stereotype that doesn't really fit. I've met people across many nationalities and many faiths who are ignorant and arrogant. A person's life experience, travel outside of their own area, and their investigation and questioning of what is around them are the only things that can help people become less ignorant or arrogant. Not everyone has the opportunity to travel, and not everyone likes to think outside the box or use critical thinking. EDIT - Unfortunately this is true, and this is why there is so much more conflict in this world than there needs to be. Everyone should be more critical of the status quo and try to be more tolerant.

Would this lesson be appropriate ?

World peace cannot be maintained by treaties, diplomacy, foreign policies, alliances, balances of power, or any other type of makeshift juggling with the sovereignties of nationalism. World law must come into being and must be enforced by world government--the sovereignty of all mankind.

ALL Bigotry and oppression stems from the clan, tribe, Nation defending and defeating their rival counterparts, Worldwide.
It is not only one race or nation that is infected with this disease.

kanelli wrote:

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:
I've also met ignorant and arrogant Spaniards, Canadians, Australians, Finns, Pakistanis, Lebanese etc.

More igorant Americans per capita than others...

And more people focusing on the Americans and ignoring the others.

Aren't we being ignorant and arrogant to blame only one nation and its people for all the ills of the world, overlooking our own nation's hypocricy and own contributions to world or regional problems?

Good Point !

Pakistani Kids Rally Over Prophet Cartoons
http://www.comcast.net/news/internation ... 35012.html

The children, ages 8 to 12, burned a coffin draped in U.S., Israeli and Danish flags at a traffic intersection in the port city of Karachi as police in riot gear looked on.

Now, as far as I know, niether America nor Israel printed those cartoons yet,
America and Israel have become the focal point of anger ?

Intimacy wrote:Choco, Regarding Mecca... its a very interesting Question.. really thanks for bringing it up.
~snip~
We also belive that in Mecca there is a mountin which we climp during Hajj called (Jabel Al Rahmah = The mountain of Mercy) in which Adam and Eva - My peace and blessings be upon them - had met after they ate from the apple tree and were sent to earth.

Interesting interpretation Intimacy !
Is this a common belief in Islam ?
I ask because I believe along the same lines.

CONTENTS OF THE BOOK @ http://www.urantia.org/

line 737: 74. ADAM AND EVE
line 741: 1. Adam and Eve on Jerusem
line 745: 2. Arrival of Adam and Eve
line 749: 3. Adam and Eve Learn About the Planet
line 757: 5. Adam's Administration
line 761: 6. Home Life of Adam and Eve
line 776: 75. THE DEFAULT OF ADAM AND EVE
line 800: 6. Adam and Eve Leave the Garden
line 804: 7. Degradation of Adam and Eve
line 836: 5. Death of Adam and Eve
line 841: 6. Survival of Adam and Eve
line 891: 78. THE VIOLET RACE AFTER THE DAYS OF ADAM

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:

Intimacy wrote:Choco, Regarding Mecca... its a very interesting Question.. really thanks for bringing it up.
~snip~
We also belive that in Mecca there is a mountin which we climp during Hajj called (Jabel Al Rahmah = The mountain of Mercy) in which Adam and Eva - My peace and blessings be upon them - had met after they ate from the apple tree and were sent to earth.

Interesting interpretation Intimacy !
Is this a common belief in Islam ?
I ask because I believe along the same lines.

CONTENTS OF THE BOOK @ http://www.urantia.org/

line 737: 74. ADAM AND EVE
line 741: 1. Adam and Eve on Jerusem
line 745: 2. Arrival of Adam and Eve
line 749: 3. Adam and Eve Learn About the Planet
line 757: 5. Adam's Administration
line 761: 6. Home Life of Adam and Eve
line 776: 75. THE DEFAULT OF ADAM AND EVE
line 800: 6. Adam and Eve Leave the Garden
line 804: 7. Degradation of Adam and Eve
line 836: 5. Death of Adam and Eve
line 841: 6. Survival of Adam and Eve
line 891: 78. THE VIOLET RACE AFTER THE DAYS OF ADAM

Hi Richard,

Yes.. this is a part of what we beleive. i am sorry coz i dont have the time to go thru the website which you have posted althought it sounds interesting.. but i still dont know what the last line 891:78 means yet.

i can qout from Koran about the Story, i am going to mention the verses also which comes before which tell the story of how it started:

Chapter 2: verses:

[10] It is We Who have placed you with authority on earth, and provided you therein with means for the fulfilment of your life: small are the thanks that ye give!

[11] It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down

[12] (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."

[13] (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."

[14] He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."

[15] (Allah) said: "Be thou amongst those who have respite."

[16] He said: "Because Thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way:

[17] "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."

[18] (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, Hell will I fill with you all.

[19] "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

[20] Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever."

[21] And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

[22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

[23] They said: "Our Lord! we have wronged our own souls: if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

[24] (Allah) said: "Get ye down, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood for a time."

[25] He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

[26] O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition!

[27] O ye Children of Adam! let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the Evil Ones friends (only) to those without Faith.

I actually harbored no "preconceived perceptions" of ISLAM prior to my searching for answers after 9/11.
I thought I had found a voice & face of ISLAM when I came across http://www.ummah.net/forum/
What I found was 'Death to all non-muslims' at every turn.

Dear Richard Owl,

Please be very careful of such websites.. it has nothing to do with islam.. the latest researches show that about 92%+ of the online sites which claims to talk about islam are working against islam.. I myself was shocked many many times when i was reading on websites which claim to be islamic but it has nothing to do with islam.

i came a cross one of the forums in europe, they were discussing a verse of Koran which they claim is from chapter 9 verse 11 (9/11) and the verse which they have there was talking about killing and stuff.... i was extremely shocked.. i went back and i checked it and i posted the ACTUAL verse.. and they were surprised and wondering about who started this lie

please be careful and if you require to inquire about something in islam.. check it in the Koran.. not even from a muslim in the street..

This is a good website which is available in 7 languages:
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/

All the best.

Intimacy wrote:

I actually harbored no "preconceived perceptions" of ISLAM prior to my searching for answers after 9/11.
I thought I had found a voice & face of ISLAM when I came across http://www.ummah.net/forum/
What I found was 'Death to all non-muslims' at every turn.

Dear Richard Owl,

Please be very careful of such websites.. it has nothing to do with islam.. the latest researches show that about 92%+ of the online sites which claims to talk about islam are working against islam.. I myself was shocked many many times when i was reading on websites which claim to be islamic but it has nothing to do with islam.

i came a cross one of the forums in europe, they were discussing a verse of Koran which they claim is from chapter 9 verse 11 (9/11) and the verse which they have there was talking about killing and stuff.... i was extremely shocked.. i went back and i checked it and i posted the ACTUAL verse.. and they were surprised and wondering about who started this lie

please be careful and if you require to inquire about something in islam.. check it in the Koran.. not even from a muslim in the street..

This is a good website which is available in 7 languages:
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/

All the best.

Thank you

... check it in the Koran.. not even from a muslim in the street..

This is a good website which is available in 7 languages:
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/

Are you indicating that the vast majority of muslims in this world do not know nor follow the Quran ?
They were simply assimilated into Islam because their family history was that of muslim?