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DFT - I agree with your points. At the end of the day, we need to choose which theory to believe in.

I choose to believe in a creator for the reasons already given, whilst it is indeed possible there isn't one, I don't have enough faith in the small odds of this being the case to believe it.

I don't agree with your view that a belief in an outside, intelligent force means 'unknowable complexity' - as I see the outside force to be exactly that, outside the universe. Complexity is not a concept that applies outside the universe. It's like asking what colour is sound.

But my belief does not mean I'm anti-Science - quite the contrary. More power to the guys looking into these matters!

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Complexity is not a concept that applies outside the universe.

Then intelligence and ability to create is also not a concept that applies outside the universe.

^How do you know?

Cheers,

Shafique

That's a good question! I don't know whats outside our universe.
But inside the universe an intellect that has the ability to create presuppose complexity.
By analogy the programmer is more complex and sophisticated than the computer and the program he is writing.
And also by analogy we know that the programmer does not simply exist, he is not uncaused - while the entities inside the program may well think in such terms because they don't know what is "outside" the program.

Now, let's explore the analogy.

What if within the computer programme you had some 'beings' who did interact with the programmer. Also some beings would find rules/instructions that were communicated to some of the beings. The Programmer, you'd agree, would be able to communicate to who ever in the simulation she chooses to communicate.

Now, assume that some beings started wanting proof that the programmer existed. They asked whether the programmer was bound by the laws of physics the programmer created when he wrote the computer code. Well, those who understood the programmer's nature (or rather what he wasn't) would say that the programmer was not bound by the laws she created, but was outside their universe. Comparing computer code within the sim programme and the computer programmer seemed an odd comparison - yes, the programmer was omniscent and immortal relative to her programme (she after all created the 'time' they were experiencing, and could fast forward/reverse at will).

... do you get my drift?

At the end of the day, like the characters in the programme we too have to decide which theory of creation to believe in. I choose the theory that there is an outside, sentient and intelligent creator - because I don't have enough faith for the alternative theory that we are here by chance. I would be one of the beings in the sim explaining why I do believe there is a programmer and others would be saying, if there were infinite computers, infinite bits of code then eventually we'll get to a system where a fully working SIM programme with sentient beings would come into being. It could happen, but I don't have your strength of faith.

Cheers,

Shafique

Remind me again why I would expect to see the earliest cells or proto cells to look like the one pictured on page two of this thread?

eh - you should read what I wrote carefully.

I stated that I totally agree that what was presented is a possible way that life evolved - and indeed having protocells of 5 to 10 molecules is a logical starting step along the path to a living cell which has over a million living cells.

I just made the point that I would be impressed if and when we could make not living cells, but a 'simple' protein membrane from inorganic/non-living building blocks (i.e. not from something that was already alive). Should proto-cells created in the lab evolve over time to a point where a protein membrane is formed, then that would fulfil what I was asking for.

My point was that I'd be impressed when this stage was reached - which is still a long way from a living cell. Call it a milestone along the way from a 10 molecule proto cell to a living 1,000,000 molecule real cell.

We are at 10, living cell is around 1,000,000 (actually the scale is larger.. because the 1,000,000 molecules have to be arranged in a particular configuration, but let's over look that here). Getting to protein membrane is probably around the 200,000 mark - I guess.

I do believe in evolution, but I believe that all the conditions were set in motion by an intelligent outside force. I don't have enough faith for the alternatives (eg my favourite one, that we were created 5 min ago with ready made memories, or that we are here by random chance).

We have to choose which of the theories of creation we believe in. I'm happy to say I'll revisit my view should a protein membrane be produced from scratch and will certainly HAVE to revisit my belief if we ever create life from inorganic starting material (because Islamic teachings say only God creates life and man won't be able to achieve this). I suspect I won't be revisiting this latter belief in my lifetime - but I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

Cheers,

Shafique

DFT , The idea of god only complicates the true understanding of universe.

don't know exactly why but I always enjoy sharing this article philosophy-dubai/teleological-causality-t40819.html with everyone who doubts a perfect creator(Allah) behind every cause.

It's only when you start deep thinking, you realise that every simple creation/happening is far more complex than it to be purely coincidental ...

Berrin wrote:I always enjoy sharing this article philosophy-dubai/teleological-causality-t40819.html with everyone who doubts a perfect creator. It's only when you start deep thinking...

How do you know that proteins even exist, that they are maid of amino-acids, and all amino-acids in most life forms on earth are left-handed? Is it written in Quran? I don't think so. You selectively put your faith in a scientific theory to prove your other faith, yet you choose to ignore other theories in science, like evolution, that are based on the same scientific method. While this is a normal human behavior, to choose facts that enforce your beliefs, it does not imply "deep thinking".

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB040.html wrote:
1.) The amino acids that are used in life, like most other aspects of living things, are very likely not the product of chance. Instead, they likely resulted from a selection process. A simple peptide replicator can amplify the proportion of a single handedness in an initially random mixture of left- and right-handed fragments (Saghatelian et al. 2001; TSRI 2001). Self-assemblies on two-dimensional surfaces can also amplify a single handedness (Zepik et al. 2002). Serine forms stable clusters of a single handedness which can select other amino acids of like handedness by substituting them for serine; these clusters also incorporate other biologically important molecules such as glyceraldehyde, glucose, and phosphoric acid (Takats et al. 2003). An excess of handedness in one kind of amino acid catalyzes the handedness of other organic products, such as threose, which may have figured prominently in proto-life (Pizzarello and Weber 2004).

2.) Amino acids found in meteorites from space, which must have formed abiotically, also show significantly more of the left-handed variety, perhaps from circularly polarized UV light in the early solar system (Engel and Macko 1997; Cronin and Pizzarello 1999). The weak nuclear force, responsible for beta decay, produces only electrons with left-handed spin, and chemicals exposed to these electrons are far more likely to form left-handed crystals (Service 1999). Such mechanisms might also have been responsible for the prevalence of left-handed amino acids on earth.

3.) The first self-replicator may have had eight or fewer types of amino acids (Cavalier-Smith 2001). It is not all that unlikely that the same handedness might occur so few times by chance, especially if one of the amino acids was glycine, which has no handedness.

4.) Some bacteria use right-handed amino acids, too (McCarthy et al. 1998).

Here are some studies of Left-Handed Amino Acids:
How Left-Handed Amino Acids Got Ahead: A Demonstration Of The Evolution Of Biological Homochirality In The Lab

'Ancestral Eve' Crystal May Explain Origin of Life's Left-Handedness

Key To Life Before Its Origin On Earth May Have Been Discovered

Origin of Life On Earth: 'Natural' Asymmetry of Biological Molecules May Have Come from Space

--- Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 pm ---

shafique wrote:What if within the computer programme you had some 'beings' who did interact with the programmer. Also some beings would find rules/instructions that were communicated to some of the beings. The Programmer, you'd agree, would be able to communicate to who ever in the simulation she chooses to communicate.

What if the 'beings' had the ability to invent stuff about the programmer and the rules? It's a fact we can invent fictional stuff. And it's a fact that during the history rulers have invented myths and stories to rule their people. Now considering these facts what is more probable? That the creator of the universe came to a selected few that happened to be the leaders of a group of people or that these leaders invented this?

The question you should ask yourself:

If you were born in the ancient Egypt would you believe that Pharaohs are sons of God Re?
Why the only God waited so long to let people know that he is the only one? Why let people for thousands of years believe in many Gods?

DFT - sure, my theory would still apply if the 'beings' in the programme could invent things about each other and creators, could think for themselves and make real choices. Call it 'artificial intelligence' if you will.

What if the programmer still contacted a few of the beings that followed certain parameters programmed in and rewarded them with 'easter eggs' which contained hidden secrets/information about the world he programmed, and the rewards/punishments/consequences of their choices that he programmed in?

Some who chose not to believe the information could choose to make up their own beliefs - such as there is no programmer.

Cheers,

Shafique