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The Koran seems pretty clear that works alone are not enough to be granted salvation:

For instance, the Koran says apostates from Islam to other religions will not be accepted in Paradise, regardless of any active opposition to Islam:

and whosoever of you turns from his religion, and dies disbelieving -- their works have failed in this world and the next; those are the inhabitants of the Fire; therein they shall dwell forever.

Koran 2:217

So, simple question: Does v2:217 contradict v2:62 of the Koran or not?

If a Muslim converts to another religion, has faith and does good work - meaning, they meet the requirements according to v2:62 - will the apostate still be accepted or will their works fail due to their turning from Islam and that person will be sent to the eternal fires of hell as the Koran says?

No, verse 2:217 does not contradict v 2:62.

2:62 says that anyone who believes in Allah, the last day and does good deeds goes to heaven. It includes Jews, Christians and Sabeans.

2:25 uses the same initial words to describe believers and reiterates the same point - that Faith AND Good deeds are required.

Therefore all the verses clearly state that belief and faith are required for salvation.

If one has accepted Islam and then turns away from it - or if one has heard and actively rejects it, then they have failed in the first criterion of 2.62 and 2.25 - they no longer believe in the one true God and His message.

If one hasn't actively turned away from God's message - then that person, be they Jewish, Christian or Sabian, will get to heaven provided they meet the criteria in 2.62.

For there to be a contradiction to 2.62, the Quran should say 'No Christian, No Jew or No non-Muslim will go to heaven'. There is no such verse.

2.62 therefore compliments the other verses - which all, including 2.62, say faith (belief) PLUS deeds are required.

See, it is not difficult to answer a question directly. I await your answers to the Pope is anti-christ thread and whether you believe that faith and deeds are required (as the Quran teaches).

2 questions we're waiting for you to answer.

Cheers,
Shafique

what is believe EH?

whosoever of you turns from his religion, ... their works have failed

Seems pretty clear to me - v2:217 is talking about anyone who becomes an apostate from Islam.

Do we at least agree that this is what v2:217 is saying?

The verse also makes no distinction from apostates who convert to another faith and genuinely believe and do good works from any other type of apostate - one who may become atheist and lead a life of sin.

So why does v2:217 not contradict your verses? You haven't disputed my interpretation of v2:217. Is an apostate from Islam absolutely denied Paradise?

If you agree that that's the case, then we agree v2:217 contradicts what v2:62 is saying. Otherwise, some apostates would be allowed entry to Paradise but the verse says any convert from Islam is destined for hell.

^Well, we'll just have to chalk that up to yet another weird belief you have - alongside talking donkeys, sun stopping and now managing to invent a new meaning for apostate!

God is quite clear that apostacy is a crime that is punishable by God in the afterlife. What has that got to do with 2.62? There God clearly states that those who believe, Jews, Christians and Sabians (note, apostates not mentioned) will go to heaven if they fulfil the criteria listed. Inventing words that aren't there is a game you seem desperate to play. Why?

Now, why aren't you answering the question about the Pope? Hmm.

Cheers,
Shafique

What has that got to do with 2.62? There God clearly states that those who believe, Jews, Christians and Sabians

I already explained this to you. An apostate reverting to Christianity or Judaism is destined to the eternal hell fires regardless of their faith+and+works.

So, therefore, this is yet another Koranic Kontradiction.

Young eh - not all Christians and Jews are apostates. Some Christians and Jews are murderers and terrorists (such as Brievik and Goldstein). Your argument is funny and ultimately moot - 2.62 is not talking about apostates (or terrorists etc).

Now, re-read my post and explain why you are not answering direct questions posed to you:

shafique wrote:God is quite clear that apostacy is a crime that is punishable by God in the afterlife. What has that got to do with 2.62? There God clearly states that those who believe, Jews, Christians and Sabians (note, apostates not mentioned) will go to heaven if they fulfil the criteria listed. Inventing words that aren't there is a game you seem desperate to play. Why?

Now, why aren't you answering the question about the Pope? Hmm.

Cheers,
Shafique

Young eh - not all Christians and Jews are apostates. Some Christians and Jews are murderers and terrorists

I'm confused. What do murderers have to do with apostates? It's a moot point if murderers are performing good deeds, so why bring them up?

Again, if someone converts from Islam to Christianity and, as a Christian, has faith and performs good works, are they destined for hell as per v2:217?

If so, then v2:217 contradicts v2:62.

Which you prior argued that one only need to have faith and perform deeds to make it to heaven. But if a revert to Christianity does have faith and performs good deeds, he is still destined for hell.

Therefore, salvation is not necessarily linked to deeds and, rather, belief in Islam trumps deeds - a 'bad' Muslim will enter heaven but a 'good' apostate is destined for hell.

God is quite clear that apostacy is a crime that is punishable by God in the afterlife. What has that got to do with 2.62?

This has been explained to you for the THIRD time.

You didn't re-read my post did you?

Now, re-read my post and explain why you are not answering direct questions posed to you:

shafique wrote:God is quite clear that apostacy is a crime that is punishable by God in the afterlife. What has that got to do with 2.62? There God clearly states that those who believe, Jews, Christians and Sabians (note, apostates not mentioned) will go to heaven if they fulfil the criteria listed. Inventing words that aren't there is a game you seem desperate to play. Why?

Now, why aren't you answering the question about the Pope? Hmm.


Cheers,
Shafique

So you're agreeing that works & faith are not enough - one needs to be a believer in Islam otherwise an apostate from Islam to Christianity who has faith and does good works after his conversion would not be sent to hell for his apostasy?

God is quite clear in the Quran that faith AND works are required - I'm not sure why you're now imagining I said anything different.

Could it be because I've asked you the following question:

shafique wrote:Eh- I promise to answer your question above AFTER you've answered the question relevant to this thread's topic:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Why are you avoiding this question? (And the one about the Pope?)

Cheers,
Shafique

God is quite clear in the Quran that faith AND works are required

We have your own post saying an apostate from Islam who has faith in another religion AND does good works will still go to hell.

Therefore, v2:61 & 2:217 are in contradiction.

Ok, we all understand you want to believe there is a contradiction in the two verses.

I'll keep asking you to answer the outstanding questions.

shafique wrote:God is quite clear in the Quran that faith AND works are required - I'm not sure why you're now imagining I said anything different.

Could it be because I've asked you the following question:

shafique wrote:Eh- I promise to answer your question above AFTER you've answered the question relevant to this thread's topic:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Why are you avoiding this question? (And the one about the Pope?)

Cheers,
Shafique

The Koran says *all* apostates are sent to hell - that includes apostates who become Christians, have faith in their new religion and do good works.

Therefore, that contradicts what v2:62 is saying - that salvation only requires faith and works.

Otherwise, apostates who have faith in a new religion and also perform good works will be saved, but the Koran is quite clear they aren't.

Repeating your belief won't change the fact we've now moved on (I accept you believe your interpretation). You believe in Talking Donkeys, so believing there is a contradiction where there isn't one is not that strange.

Now (and you know I WILL keep repeating the questions), here's your question again:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?


(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Why avoid explaining your beliefs on the subject?

Cheers,
Shafique

It's amazing how shafique doesn't see a contradiction between what v2:217 and v2:62 say.

If someone were to convert from Islam to Christianity - have faith and do works as a Christian convert - they would be destined for the fires of hell according to v2:217 but this is contradicted by v2:62 which says the Christian should enter paradise since he both has faith (in Christianity) and performs good works.

Either this is a contradiction or v2:62 can only refer to Christians and Jews who have not yet heard the message of Islam - where they, therefore, are only judged by the two criteria listed in verse 2:62.

Therefore, salvation is entirely dependent on believing in Islam for those who have heard the message.

event horizon wrote:The Koran says *all* apostates are sent to hell - that includes apostates who become Christians, have faith in their new religion and do good works.

Therefore, that contradicts what v2:62 is saying - that salvation only requires faith and works.

Otherwise, apostates who have faith in a new religion and also perform good works will be saved, but the Koran is quite clear they aren't.

The amazing thing is how active an imagination eh has - imagining that 2.62 talks about apostates.

But hey, his bizaro interpretations of scripture is behind some of his other beliefs - such as talking donkeys and the sun stopping in the sky for a day.

The questions still remain over why he is avoiding explaining his Christian belief on the subject at hand:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?


(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Is he embarrassed to answer these questions, or just confused? He's certainly confused over God's clear verses in the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

imagining that 2.62 talks about apostates

So you're saying apostates can't have faith in the religion they converted to and do good works?

If your answer is 'yes, apostates can have faith in their adopted religion and do good works, then v2:62 talks about them just the same as any other Christian or Jew with faith and good works'.

If your answer is yes, then 2:62 and 2:217 contradict each other.

So, can apostates have faith and do good works? If so, why are they destined to the fires of hell?

He's certainly confused over God's clear verses in the Quran.

The Koran's clear verses lead to some differing interpretations; case in point, *your* interpretation of v2:62 vs the Ahmadi interpretation I posted on the other thread.

Which of my previous answers confused you eh? Was it the one saying that 2.62 does not mention apostates, or was it all the posts that say God is pretty clear that (as in 2.25) that both faith and good works are required?

I reckon you're just confused over how to divert attention away from the fact you seem embarrassed about your Christian belief on the topic at hand:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?


(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Imagining that we're the one's who are confused is quite funny.

Cheers,
Shafique

Was it the one saying that 2.62 does not mention apostates, or was it all the posts that say God is pretty clear that (as in 2.25) that both faith and good works are required?

So....are apostates with sincere faith in their adopted religion and good works (v2:25) punished or not?

You say faith and works is all that is required for salvation - yet the Koran says apostates are sent to hell, even if they have faith and do good works.

There is a logical contradiction in your position which I assume explains your reluctance to properly address the points brought up.