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Eh brought up a old thread which contained the unanswered question over a contradiction in the Bible on a fundamental Christian theological point. Are 'works' required for salvation, or is faith alone necessary?

The Biblical quote from James is categoric - faith without works is dead. The Biblical quote from Ephesians says 'not works'.

My view is that the Bible and Jesus' original teachings are saying that you DO need works/deeds and faith, and that faith alone is not enough. That's my view.

yes, mea culpa, the above part of the Bible was from a letter of James and I should have just said 'the Bible says' rather than 'Jesus says' - that'll teach me to be a bit more humble and be more precise in my quotes. Thanks for pointing this out eh. (I guess I could have referred to John 3:20-21 where Jesus instructs the Pharisee that faith and 'doing truth' are both required, but I didn't - but in a way, if I did - I couldn't ask the following question)


Now - should Christians ignore this passage because it comes from James and contradicts what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9?


Is Paul right to say works are not required, or is James right to say works/deeds are required - otherwise Faith is dead?

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=38145&p=311597&start&view=show#p311597

Here are the Biblical quotes:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

(James 2:14-18 ESV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians, 2 v 8/9

So, how does eh reconcile this apparent contradiction - does he agree with the first quote that you need BOTH faith and deeds?

Cheers,
Shafique

Is google not working for you today or do I have to do the work for the lazy anti-Christian forum member?

What Paul writes in other places is not contradictory with what he says below, they are conversant. Faith is equally and compatibly true with good works.

Romans 2:5-8 :

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

eh says "Faith is equally and compatibly true with good works."

vs

Bible says " faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Hmm.

Paul is contradicting James, and eh is saying they aren't contradictory. Google hasn't helped you much eh on this one.

Cheers,
Shafique

People who read text in isolation will convince themselves of whatever they want to believe.

The only thing you can convince me of is that you've never bothered to read the Bible to begin with, except for the bits and pieces that serve your predetermined beliefs.

"faith without works is dead" is hard to misunderstand.

Blaming me won't help clear up the contradiction - it just shows you can't explain the contradiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

There's no contradiction. Paul is saying people are saved by the grace of God. He's not saying to not do good works, in fact, he said people will be judged by their works.

Seems pretty clear to me. No contradiction. We'll be judged by our works. How unclear is that?

The only thing you've managed to show is how deficient your missionary websites are in providing a complete commentary on Christian beliefs.

event horizon wrote: you've never bothered to read the Bible to begin with, except for the bits and pieces that serve your predetermined beliefs.

Hmmmm.......now that sounds mighty fimilar.

Hey if you, guru bob and the ilk can be scholars and experts on Islam and the Quran with out having even having read the Quran, why can't others or is it you don't like the taste of your own medicine ?

event horizon wrote:The only thing you've managed to show is how deficient your missionary websites are in providing a complete commentary on Christian beliefs.

Riiight and you've done your Phd in Islamic studies at Al Azhar to spew the drivel you do.

desertdudeshj wrote:

event horizon wrote: you've never bothered to read the Bible to begin with, except for the bits and pieces that serve your predetermined beliefs.

Hmmmm.......now that sounds mighty fimilar.

Hey if you, guru bob and the ilk can be scholars and experts on Islam and the Quran with out having even having read the Quran, why can't others or is it you don't like the taste of your own medicine ?

Taste of my own medicine? Go back to the original thread, shafique was pontificating on the Bible (incorrectly claiming passages were authored by Jesus, for instance) before I was posting here or on another forum.

You do realize understanding parody and satire is linked to intelligence? But I guess since you believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories, you don't have much of that.

Riiight and you've done your Phd in Islamic studies at Al Azhar to spew the drivel you do.

I'll be happy to list the number of books and articles on Islam written by academics I've read to any shafique has on Christianity any day of the week. Shafique was caught lifting his material/arguments from a Ahmadiyya missionary website some time ago and ever since then has been on a bad trip of accusing others of learning of Islam in "Sunday school" or "Bible camp".

It's projection at its finest.

Shouldn't the title of thread be. Oh eh of little faith.

event horizon wrote:People who read text in isolation will convince themselves of whatever they want to believe.

The only thing you can convince me of is that you've never bothered to read the Bible to begin with, except for the bits and pieces that serve your predetermined beliefs.

interesting to see you writing that!
the one who don't check if he is copying right or wrong phrases from the Quran, and then doesn't even bother to say sorry.

Mahmood your expectations of our little troll are way too high.

Mahmoud - you are completely correct.

However note that my quotes from the Bible are completely accurate and not in dispute. In the OP you'll see that I admitted making a mistake when I mentioned (without quoting a verse) that 'Jesus said 'faith without works is dead' rather than saying 'the Bible says 'faith without works is dead' - and stated this in the middle of a post.

eh is trying to spin this mistake as a major flaw and trying to use it to avoid answering questions about the Bible, but mostly to use it as a 'whataboutery' argument whenever we challenge him on the fact HE hasn't read the whole Quran and misquotes and misinterprets the Quran constantly. He's largely quoting loon websites and pseudo-scholars like Bob Spencer when he does this.

But I now see that eh is arguing that Paul is contradicting himself in the Bible. In OP Paul is quoted saying that 'not by works' will one be saved, but elsewhere eh is arguing that works is indeed necessary.

Ergo - Christians should indeed ignore the verse quoted in the OP that contradicts 'faith without works is dead'.

It just goes to show that the Muslim view that faith and deeds are both needed is to be found in the Bible - you can't be saved by just believing in a creed (even one not actually taught by Jesus).

Cheers,
Shafique

eh is trying to spin this mistake as a major flaw

It is a major flaw and I note you're now claiming you didn't explicitly quote the epistle of James when you claimed it was a saying of Jesus.

It is on the same order of magnitude as believing Moses wrote the Koran. Obviously for someone who actually believes Moses wrote the Koran, they won't understand what the 'big deal' of their mistake was. And of course they don't, they know nothing of the subject they're talking of and should be ignored at best, ridiculed at worst.

the fact HE hasn't read the whole Quran and misquotes and misinterprets the Quran constantly.

Please, stop with the projection. I also don't recall misquoting the Koran, 'misinterpreting' is in the eye of the beholder. My interpretations of the Koran are more in line with Orthodox interpretations than I can say about yours, and I'm sure you don't want to challenge me on this point because you know I'd gladly provide numerous Muslim commentaries backing my interpretation over yours.

He's largely quoting loon websites and pseudo-scholars like Bob Spencer when he does this.

I've never quoted from Alislam.org. You must be mistaking me with someone else.

But time to put up or shut up. I know, in terms of depth, you've never read much more than Wikipedia articles on Christianity. Just provide a short hand list of recognized scholars in the fields of Christian History, Theology, etc you've read and I'll provide my own list of credentialed scholars in the fields of Islamic History, Theology, etc I've read.

Ergo - Christians should indeed ignore the verse quoted in the OP that contradicts 'faith without works is dead'....you can't be saved by just believing in a creed (even one not actually taught by Jesus).

Now, what did our other resident troll say about trolls?

desertdudeshj wrote:To take them seriously is to give legitimacy to their non sensical phobic agenda, I know stooping down to an idiot's level also sort of makes you an idiot but their is no reasoning with such people, because they are not here to discuss, seek knowledge or anything rational for that matter but just wave their flags. Its either ignore them and or have a little bit of fun and have a laugh.

I'll let the readers of this forum decide for themselves if the above comments would come from someone who is 'here to discuss, seek knowledge or anything rational'.

Anyone with an ounce of grey matter should see Desert (inadvertently) describing you to a tee.

Fail.

Your whataboutery argument is so weak - you're spinning my one statement 'Jesus said..' as a major error, when I just mentioned this in passing in the middle of a post. Note that you tried to hide this fact by not actually linking to the whole post (i.e. the usual loon tactic of selectively posting and not showing the context).

Anyway - that is a whataboutery argument that we can dismiss - this thread is about which of the contradictory Biblical verses you believe in.

It appears you do believe that 'Faith without works is Dead'. Excellent.

Now explain how this is different from the Islamic concept of salvation - i.e. that you will be judged by your deeds and by your beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

you're spinning my one statement 'Jesus said..' as a major error, when I just mentioned this in passing in the middle of a post.

You mentioned it three times, if I recall, and cited the verse twice.

You even had to check to confirm that the quote from an Epistle wasn't a saying of Jesus, further showing you're unaware of what the epistles are. That is a big deal and it's on par with claiming President Lincoln fought in the Revolutionary War, after pontificating on American history, and then responding that you'll have to check up on it after someone corrects you on the facts.

Now explain how this is different from the Islamic concept of salvation - i.e. that you will be judged by your deeds and by your beliefs.

The Koran is clear that only believers will enter Paradise and that the one requirement to entering Paradise is being a believer. If you're a believer, you're automatically guaranteed entry - it has nothing to do with works, though some works (Jihad/martyrdom) will grant believers perks and benefits.

Provide the links, young man, and then we'll see whether your recollection is true about how many times and in what context I mentioned 'Jesus said..' in relation to 'faith without works is dead'.

In terms of Islam - which particular verse(s) of the Quran led you to your interpretation of who God will judge can go to Paradise? Do you really think Islam teaches only Muslims go to heaven?

Islam actually teaches that works and faith are both needed for salvation. But I'm intrigued as to how you've got the completely wrong end of the stick.

Cheers,
Shafique

I quoted you in the thread I made that this thread is based on: philosophy-dubai/did-jesus-say-faith-without-works-dead-t38145.html

You wrote:

shafique wrote:Here is a verse for your reference:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:14-18 ESV)

You then had to check to confirm President Lincoln didn't fight in the American Revolutionary War.

Do you really think Islam teaches only Muslims go to heaven?

Yes, absolutely.

The Koran is quite clear - anyone who has heard the message of Islam and not converted (or became an apostate) will be barred entry to Paradise.

And whoever desires a way of life other than the Submission (to the Commands of Allah), it shall not be taken from him with approval, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3:85]

The Koran continues:

therein dwelling forever ; the chastisement shall not be lightened for them ; no respite shall be given them. [3:88]

Surely those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving, there shall not be accepted from any one of them the whole earth full of gold, if he would ransom himself thereby; for them awaits a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers. [3:91]

....Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers. [5:5]

those who deny Allah's Revelations will be the losers [10:95]

And whoever desires a way of life other than the Submission (to the Commands of Allah), it shall not be taken from him with approval, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3:85]

Seems pretty clear. The Koran uses the word 'loser' interchangeably for apostates and kaffir. Losers are described as people who will be sent to a place of eternal suffering. Anyone can put two and two together and see that these verses say non-believers will be sent to hell in the next life.

As the Koran says, "Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed".

We can discuss the Koranic belief that all believers, if they die a believer, will be guaranteed a spot in Paradise after we establish these very clear passages in the Koran.

Fail. Again.

You didn't provide any links to the original posts where I referred to 'faith without works is dead'.

As for the Quranic quotes - again, you are overlooking the clear commandments of God and putting a spin on snippets. Faith and works are required for salvation according to Islam, pretty much what some verses of the Bible says too.

I'll provide the relevant verses - but first let's clear up your claim about my quotes. One failure at a time - what do you say eh? Provide the links to my original quote(s) and let's see the context. If you can't, admit you've made yet another false accusation.

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:05 pm --

Edit - I'm feeling generous, here's where the first quote comes from originally (3 and half years ago!!):
dubai-politics-talk/letter-bush-t24867-15.html

Re-reading the thread, I fully understand why eh was not willing to link to it. It actually contains an interesting discussion about the Bible, Christianity etc - and what is noticeable is that it is NOT with eh!

I presume the second quote is from much later on in the thread..

Here is the original thread my quote came from: ar/a-letter-to-mr-bush-39-24867.htm

Old threads have become compromised but you can find the quote on that page.

As for the Quranic quotes - again, you are overlooking the clear commandments of God and putting a spin on snippets.

Seriously? You're going to accuse others of putting spin on snippets? In this thread, no less?

All I've got to say is ->

Faith and works are required for salvation according to Islam, pretty much what some verses of the Bible says too.

The Koran says works are null without faith.

I'll go ahead and re-post the passage as it's pretty clear to me:

"Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed".

Yup.

See my edit above, I also found the thread - makes very good reading. Interesting that you had to go back to Feb 2008 for the two quotes from 7 pages of discussions. (Good luck persuading anyone that the long theological discussion of that thread is a sign that I haven't actually read the Bible!)

Ok, let's move on to the Quranic concept of who goes to heaven.

What is your interpretation of 2.62:

Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

'Any who believe in God, day of judgement and do good works' - does not read to me like 'Muslims only'. In fact, I think this verse clarifies what 'have faith' means - and therefore compliments the verses saying what will happen to those who don't have faith.

I.e. like the Bible - faith AND works are required. You need to have faith in God, the day of judgement AND do good works.

What's your view?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique says "I think this verse clarifies what 'have faith' means - and therefore compliments the verses saying what will happen to those who don't have faith."

vs

Koran says "And whoever desires a way of life other than the Submission (to the Commands of Allah), it shall not be taken from him with approval, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.".

Hmm.

The Koran is contradicting its own passagse, and shafique is saying they aren't contradictory. Google hasn't helped you much on this one.

Actually, my view of the verse in question is that it's referring to the mythical Jews and Christians before Muhammad who followed the 'uncorrupted' revelations sent from Allah. So citing v2.62 is a moot point. These Jews and Christians no longer exist.

The Koran is quite clear that the Jews and Christians of Muhammad's time were not fellow believers.

Another interpretation is that only Jews and Christians who have never heard of Islam may be accepted. Today, virtually all Jews and Christians have heard of Islam, so this makes their entrance to Paradise dependent on conversion.

(Which begs the question, since 99.9% of people who hear the message of Islam won't convert, are Muslim missionaries sending more people to hell than they're saving?)
http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=33511

LOL..ratty you really love being a troll dont ya.

Shaf kudos to you for even bothering to entertain this fool. or maaaaybe if you didn't feed the troll, he would starve and die. Hmm....

But I must really say ratty is a resilient strain, still driveling after all this time.

dds - give the young guy credit, he did dig up a thread from 2008 and found two snippets from 7 pages of posts!

Now, let's see the young one's interpretation of God's clear explanation:

shafique wrote:What is your interpretation of 2.62:

Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

'Any who believe in God, day of judgement and do good works' - does not read to me like 'Muslims only'. In fact, I think this verse clarifies what 'have faith' means - and therefore compliments the verses saying what will happen to those who don't have faith.

I.e. like the Bible - faith AND works are required. You need to have faith in God, the day of judgement AND do good works.

eh's considered interpretation is:

Actually, my view of the verse in question is that it's referring to the mythical Jews and Christians before Muhammad who followed the 'uncorrupted' revelations sent from Allah. So citing v2.62 is a moot point. These Jews and Christians no longer exist.

So, we have another great example of Bible Camp Islamic theology - choosing to believe in a myth rather than reality - in this case choosing to see a qualification that isn't there.

God says .. 'any who believe..' , eh has to spin that 'any' means 'only those who lived in the past'.

Must try harder eh. But hey - if this is the logic hoop YOU have to jump through to justify your belief, so be it. I'll stick to the logical explanation.

This verse is an example of clear verse - and not a metaphorical one - and God has explained what the difference is:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

3.7

'All who believe in Allah, last day and do good works' will go to heaven. Can't be clearer than that. And this does not contradict any other verse of the Quran - for these criteria define what faith and works are in context of salvation.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, we have another great example of Bible Camp Islamic theology - choosing to believe in a myth rather than reality - in this case choosing to see a qualification that isn't there.

God says .. 'any who believe..' , eh has to spin that 'any' means 'only those who lived in the past'.

So we now agree that this one verse contradicts the several which say a religion besides Islam will never be accepted - they'll be among the losers and sent to a place of eternal torment. Their works will also never be accepted.

I suppose you should come up with an argument for why all those other verses need to be ignored for the two verses in the Koran they contradict.

Nope, see my edit above - it is your Bible camp theology about Islam that is contradicted by 2.62.

All who believe in Allah, last day and do good works' will go to heaven. Can't be clearer than that. And this does not contradict any other verse of the Quran - for these criteria define what faith and works are in context of salvation.

Cheers,
Shafique

God says .. 'any who believe..' , eh has to spin that 'any' means 'only those who lived in the past'.

Notice that my interpretation doesn't *contradict* what the Koran says elsewhere. So we have shafique who is arguing the Koran contains contradictions vs me saying the verse may not necessarily contradict the clear verses that say non-Muslims will not be accepted to Paradise.

'All who believe in Allah, last day and do good works' will go to heaven. Can't be clearer than that. And this does not contradict any other verse of the Quran - for these criteria define what faith and works are in context of salvation.

Unfortunately the Koran says elsewhere pretty clearly that anyone who doesn't follow *Islam* will not be accepted.

So how do you reconcile these obvious contradictions?

'only Muslims go to heaven'

vs

'Christians and Jews can also go to heaven'

I also like how v3:7 basically admits the Koran's own failings. "The verses in this book are clear, except the ones that aren't...don't try to understand those".

Thanks for repeating your belief.

But God is quite clear: "Any" - i.e. all who do the following "who believe in Allah (one true God), believe in the day of judgement (i.e. believe they are accountable for actions) AND do good deeds (no explanation needed)' go to heaven.

And to remove any lingering doubt about only Muslims going to heaven - God is explicit when he says in the beginning of the verse that Jews, Christians and Sabians who believe (i.e. non-Muslims) will go to heaven. God does not say only historic Jews, Christians and Sabians - but explicitly says ..'All who believe'.

You have to make a big effort to not see what God is saying and imagine a contradiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please explain how your verse *doesn't* contradict what this other *clear* verse is saying:

And whoever desires a way of life other than the Submission (to the Commands of Allah), it shall not be taken from him with approval, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3:85]

God defines in 2.62 what the criteria for 'Submission' are in context of salvation : "Belief in one true God, belief in Day of Judgement and Do Good Works". If you do fulfill these three - you will join the Jews, Christians and Sabians who will be admitted into heaven for doing these.

No contradiction.

God does NOT say non-Muslims will NOT go to heaven, but explicitly says in 2.62 that they will - if they have faith and do good works. Just like some Biblical verses say - you need faith and good works.

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?



Cheers,
Shafique

[quote="shafique"] God does not say only historic Jews, Christians and Sabians - but explicitly says ..'All who believe'.

Could you elaborate more on this one pls.