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Are you embarrassed to state your Christian belief eh?

But I understand what you saying and understand why you are now embarrassed. The Christians who say that 'faith alone' will get you salvation are clearly wrong. You agree with me on this.

Faith and works are both required.

As God says in the Quran:

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow...

2.25

So, we can both correct the Christians who say that just believing is enough. Excellent.

That does mean that my question of a Christian who only believes in Christ but does not do good works, that person WILL NOT be saved, as you say a person with true faith will also do good works. Therefore not doing good works is an indication that they don't actually have true faith after all.

In other words, faith without works is dead.

Why it took you so long to agree with the Muslim understanding of the importance of righteous deeds is beyond me - you really should get beyond your embarrassment. Fantasising that God does not teach this in the Quran only makes you look foolish.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Koran is quite clear that Muslims are destined for Paradise regardless of their actions on earth.

We've also established that apostates from Islam are hell bound - also, regardless of their faith (in a new religion) and their works.

So, therefore, one cannot simply say that the Koran teaches that the way to heaven and hell is simply through works. It's mostly about believing in the message of Islam.

The Quran is indeed quite clear - you should read it.

As I said, I understand your embarrassment at your realisation that your belief contradicts Christians who say 'only faith alone' is required, and that it is in accordance with what God says in the Quran that both deeds and belief are required.

Setting up a strawman that any Muslim argues the 'works alone' is a requirement is a sign of your desperation.

But hey, God's words are clear - and quoted above. It's clear to anyone who reads the Quran that everyone will be judged according to their actions - especially Muslims. But hey, if you want to ignore what the Quran actually says, so be it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Allah's words are clear and clearly contradict what he says elsewhere.

If works and faith guarantee salvation, then apostates who perform good works and have faith in Christianity should also be guaranteed salvation.

But they're not, so the Koran contains a contradiction.

I suspect you don't address this point because you also realize the contradiction between the two verses.

Please explain to us what God says in 2.25 and explain to us why you're still confused over His clear message that faith and works are both required.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please explain if apostates with faith and who do good works are sent to hell or heaven.

First, let's be clear - Allah says clearly that BOTH faith and works are required. This is clear in 2.25 and other verses.

You're asking a slightly different question - do Apostates who fulfil the 'faith and works' criteria go to heaven, as promised in 2.62. Well, first note that 2.62 does not mention apostates.

On one level, you could argue that apostates have sinned and don't have faith, by definition, therefore the question is moot.

God says that Apostates will be punished by Him in the afterlife - therefore there is no contradiction.

However God also says that He is most forgiving and He is the final judge. So an apostate (from say a Wahabi sect) who does good, believes in one God etc may get to heaven according to 2.62 - if the apostacy is actually away from a perversion of Islam, then God will have mercy. God's mercy is mentioned many, many times in the Quran.

Incidentally - other sinners are also going to be judged by their actions. God also says that idol worship is a sin and is punishable - I believe the Bible also stipulates this.

So, in short - then YES it is possible that some apostates will be given God's mercy and will go to heaven. God does not say that all will definitely go to hell. The only sin that God says He won't forgive is idolatry - associating partners with God - everything else there is a chance of God's Mercy. If you read the Quran, this is clear.

Cheers,
Shafique

God does not say that all will definitely go to hell.

V2:217 reads to me (among others) that all apostates will be sent to hell for all times. How does it read to you?

On one level, you could argue that apostates have sinned and don't have faith, by definition, therefore the question is moot.

I've made sure that when I'm speaking of apostates, I'm referring to those apostates to Christianity/Judaism, etc that *do* have *faith* in their adopted religion. So, no. The question is not a moot point. The believer (apostate) is one with faith and works. Therefore, v2:62 & v2:217 are in contradiction *unless* v2:62 is only referring to those unbelievers (monotheists) who've never heard the message of Islam and will only be judged on two criteria.

v2.217 is quite clear on the subject:

..And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.

vs 2.62

Indeed, those who believe and the Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Apostates who die without faith violate the first of the 'Faith and Good Works' criteria. Apostates who don't die in disbelief but have fulfilled the criteria in 2.62 will have no fear.


See, if you actually read what God says in the Quran you will be less confused.

Cheers,
Shafique

A disbeliever is one who has heard and rejected the message of Islam.

Apostates, modern Christians and Jews all fall under the category of disbelievers.

Do you disagree?