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event horizon · Feb 06, 2010

The wikipedia article has numerous scholars quoted who debunk the historical accuracy of verse 9:30.

shafique · Feb 07, 2010

Excellent - so you'll be able to write to wikipedia and correct all those scholars when you dig out the Talmudic verses which confirm what God says in the Quran.

Surely you're not going to run away from the accusation you made and hide behind 'scholars on wikipedia'??

You relished pointing out that I wasn't a student of the Talmud - now's your chance to quote the Talmud to me and explain why when it says only Jews go to heaven, we should believe it actually means that 'not only Jews go to heaven'.

Either that, or you don't want to quote the Talmud to us - because you would have to concede that God's words are not an inaccuracy.

Why don't you just give me the reference to the Talmud and I'll cut and paste the quotes?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Feb 08, 2010

Given I've agreed to extract the numbers of anti-semitic and Islamophobic numbers from the references you have given, perhaps you will finally get round to quoting the verses of the Talmud which state only Jews go to heaven. Fair?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 09, 2010

I'm not following - do you need more time to read the wikipedia article posted in this thread to verify the numerous scholars who say the Koran is historically inaccurate ?

shafique · Feb 09, 2010

I'm just waiting for you to produce the verses from the Talmud to back up your second allegation. You will then be able to correct all your fellow 'believers' who you think agree with your second allegation.

All mouth, no trousers again?

Cheers
Shafique

shafique · Feb 11, 2010

shafique wrote:
event horizon wrote:In any event, I'm happy to move onto the next Koranic inaccuracy. Here, the Koran says that the Jews believe that only Jews will enter 'Paradise'. I am not aware of any such belief in the Judaism, so this should, yet again, be regarded as a simple error.

2:111 - And they say, 'None shall enter Paradise except that they be Jews or Christians.' Such are their fancies. Say: 'Produce your proof, if you speak truly.'

..
So, let us move on as he suggests.

Ok, I have to admit, I'm not a great scholar of the finer points of Judaism - so I will have to defer to what web sites on Judaism say.

A good place would be Judaism 101, I thought. So, let's see what they have to say about non-Jews going to heaven:

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Now, it appears to be saying that the Talmud does contain passages which say only Jews go to heaven, but that by the time of 'Rambam' (cool name, btw) this was changed and the previous belief was blamed on a notion that the earlier Jews believed they were the only righteous people.

[Edit - Rambam is no other than Maimonides who lived in Islamic Spain and later in Morocco- so perhaps his view of the Torah was influenced by the tolerance of his Muslim rulers? In any case, it appears that Rambam's interpretations were actually opposed by Rabbis at the time, so his tolerant views weren't the prevailing or previous views of Judaism - but, as I said, eh can correct this view if it is mistaken.]

The question therefore becomes, did the Jews of the 7th Century belong to those who thought they monopolised righteousness. The Jews of Arabia were surrounded by barbaric pagan Arabs who practiced female infanticide etc - so I would be surprised if they thought these guys were 'righteous'.

Anyway, over to you eh - you can tell us whether you agree with the above quote and perhaps dig out the quotes from the Talmud that say only Jews go to heaven. You can also tell us when the opinion changed and became more 'gentile-friendly'.

You wanted to move on to a second allegation - time to pony up, or admit its yet another 'AMNT' moment.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Feb 15, 2010

AMNT?

(All mouth no trousers)

event horizon · Feb 16, 2010

Have you checked out the wikipedia page - there are numerous experts who reject the claim that the Jews took Ezra as the son of God (as the Koran claims)?

shafique · Feb 16, 2010

event horizon wrote:Have you checked out the wikipedia page - there are numerous experts who reject the claim that the Jews took Ezra as the son of God (as the Koran claims)?

Good attempt at deflection - I was asking whether you would look up the verses from the Talmud in relation to your second allegation or whether this will be another AMNT moment.

(But for the record, yes I did look at wiki and noted that you can now correct the posters there with the fact that God only says in the Quran that Ezra is a ben elohim, and that the arguments that Ezra was not +worshipped+ by Jews is moot, as the Quran does not say this. I'll leave it to you to take the glory and make the edits.)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 16, 2010

If you checked the link, as you claim, you would note that scholars dismiss the son of God notion entirely.

shafique · Feb 16, 2010

I did check the link and, I repeat, you now have a great opportunity to edit the pages and inform them of what you've discovered in this thread - that God only says Ezra was a ben elohim.

Now I'm waiting to see whether you dig up those verses from the Talmud or whether we have yet another AMNT moment.

Are you running away from your second allegation?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Feb 17, 2010

shafique wrote:
Now I'm waiting to see whether you dig up those verses from the Talmud or whether we have yet another AMNT moment.

Are you running away from your second allegation?

Was the question confusing?

event horizon · Feb 17, 2010

I've already shown you that the Koran is historically inaccurate for saying the Jews took Uzair as their son of God. (no credible historian can provide evidence to this and the vast majority of historians/scholars seem to reject this claim)

If you want to find a second historical inaccuracy, fair enough, but we first need to verify that the Koran claiming that the Jews take Ezra as a son of God is indeed historically inaccurate.

shafique · Feb 17, 2010

So we still wait for the quotes from the Talmud.

So far, AMNT indeed (just beliefs without evidence).

It is interesting that you want to go back to the first allegation, given that you were the one who wanted to move on to the second! I guess you had a flip-flop when you realised that the Talmud does confirm what God says in the Quran in relation to your second allegation.

As for the first - I really can't help you if you choose to believe Ezra was not considered a ben-elohim. You haven't given me any reference to any historian that disagrees with this statement of the Quran. Have you found any expert that agrees with you that Ezra was NOT considered a ben elohim?

AMNT on two fronts, it appears.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 17, 2010

I'll be happy to - as soon as you post evidence (actual evidence) that Jews take Ezra to be the son of God - which is what the Koran says.

shafique · Feb 18, 2010

AMNT on two fronts - impressive going eh.

It would just be easier to say you don't have any evidence to back up your two allegations. I've provided a quote by Newby which says Ezra fits exactly the description for ben elohim, and you've EPICALLY failed to produce ONE other expert who disagrees with this conclusion.

Now, let's see whether you can back up your bold claim that you will address the second allegation by getting the quotes from the Talmud.

If you don't - then it is a clear case of 'All Mouth, No Trousers' (AMNT) .

(AMNT 1 - produce one expert who disagrees with Newby who says Ezra is a posterboy for the term ben elohim,
AMNT 2 - produce the quotes from the Talmud which say Jews only go to heaven and show how this contradicts what God says in Quran.)

Cheers,
Shafiuqe

event horizon · Feb 19, 2010

I've provided a quote by Newby which says Ezra fits exactly the description for ben elohim, and you've EPICALLY failed to produce ONE other expert who disagrees with this conclusion.

Except Newby does not provide evidence or suggest that his assertion is true (he's playing devil's advocate).

Now, I'll wait for you to provide evidence (shouldn't be hard) to show that Jews consider Ezra to be their son of God - as the Koran literally says.

shafique · Feb 19, 2010

I get that you don't agree with Newby's conclusions.

I've merely asked you to provide ONE other person who is knowledgeable about this who disagrees with Newby and shares your view that Ezra was NOT consdiered a 'ben elohim' by the Jews.

AMNT no. 1.

Now, to your second allegation - you have been asked to provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and explain how you reach the conclusion that God was incorrect to state this belief of the Jews in the Quran. We've had bluster and crying, but no quotes.

AMNT no2.

Aren't your legs and nether-regions feeling chilly by now?

cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 19, 2010

The claim of the Quran, that the Jews believed Ezra was the son of God, has never collaborated with any evidence.

no evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair#Jewi ... literature

shafique · Feb 20, 2010

AMNT x2.

1. Provide one expert that disagrees with Newby that Ezra was a poster boy for the term 'ben elohim'. FAIL.
2. Provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven. FAIL

(The FAIL refers to you 'eh' )

AMNT.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 20, 2010

I've already shown that there is *no* evidence that the Jews took Ezra as their son of God. Perhaps you're having reading comprehension problems again?

shafique · Feb 20, 2010

Fail x 2.

AMNT, all mouth, no trousers - see the two explicit areas where you've failed.

Can you not find ONE expert that agrees with you that Ezra is not a ben elohim - as described by Newby?

What about failure number 2 about the Talmud quotes? You said you would provide these quotes... so what's the delay? AMNT.

:drunken:

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 20, 2010

Edward Henry Palmer states that “there is no Jewish tradition whatever in support of this accusation of Mohammed's, which probably was entirely due to his own invention or to misinformation.”

Poor shafique - reading must be so difficult for him.

shafique · Feb 20, 2010

Fail.

Please show that Palmer is addressing Newby's point about ben elohim rather than the orientalist strawman about Jews worshipping Ezra. You, yet again, have not given a full reference or given its context.

shafique wrote:
1. Provide one expert that disagrees with Newby that Ezra was a poster boy for the term 'ben elohim'. FAIL.
2. Provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven. FAIL

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 20, 2010

It's not an actual strawman because you say it is - the Koran (ignoring Islamic tradition) implies that the Jews literally took Ezra as a son of God.

Regardless of how you are now revising the standard interpretation of this verse in light of the facts, there is still *no* evidence that Jews ever considered Ezra to be 'the son of Allah' - literally or figuratively.

shafique · Feb 21, 2010

Fail.

Still in denial, I see.

It is really quite simple a request:

shafique wrote:
1. Provide one expert that disagrees with Newby that Ezra was a poster boy for the term 'ben elohim'. FAIL.
2. Provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven. FAIL

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 21, 2010

shafique wrote:Fail.

Still in denial, I see.

It is really quite simple a request:

shafique wrote:
1. Provide one expert that disagrees with Newby that Ezra was a poster boy for the term 'ben elohim'. FAIL.
2. Provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven. FAIL

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't need to. There simply is no evidence that Jews believed Ezra to be the son of God.

That's like asking, why don't you find me experts who say that Jews don't believe the sky is green? Until you do, I'll go ahead and assume my belief is correct - that Jews do believe the sky is green.

:alien:

shafique · Feb 22, 2010

I'll wait patiently for the answers to the two questions then.

AMNT x 2

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 22, 2010

Ok - I'll try to find you experts to tell us that Jews don't believe that the sky is green while I'm at it.

shafique · Feb 23, 2010

Bump:
What you do after you've answered the two pertinent questions about your allegations is up to you.

Otherwise, it will appear it is a double case of 'AMNT' - all mouth, no trousers.

Cheers,
Shafique

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