The title talks about inaccuracies in the Quran.
God says in the Quran that Jews considered Ezra to be a ben elohim. You haven't presented any evidence that this is inaccurate.
You have, however, constructed a strawman that Jews did not WORSHIP Ezra, and then argue that this is factually wrong. I agree, there is no evidence that Jews worshiped Ezra.
However, there is no evidence that God says Jews worshipped Ezra either.
Simple - please show where God says in the Quran that Jews worshipped Ezra - so far you have only quoted God saying that they took to be a 'ben elohim'. If you can't, then you'll have to concede that you haven't shown any inaccuracy in the Quran.
Cheers,
Shafique
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For Berrin - Historical Inaccuracies In The Koran
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event horizon wrote:In any event, I'm happy to move onto the next Koranic inaccuracy. Here, the Koran says that the Jews believe that only Jews will enter 'Paradise'. I am not aware of any such belief in the Judaism, so this should, yet again, be regarded as a simple error.
2:111 - And they say, 'None shall enter Paradise except that they be Jews or Christians.' Such are their fancies. Say: 'Produce your proof, if you speak truly.'
We'll take it as read that on the first 'inaccuracy' eh won't be able to show where God says Ezra was worshipped by the Jews, and that all he has done is set up a strawman.
So, let us move on as he suggests.
Ok, I have to admit, I'm not a great scholar of the finer points of Judaism - so I will have to defer to what web sites on Judaism say.
A good place would be Judaism 101, I thought. So, let's see what they have to say about non-Jews going to heaven:
Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Now, it appears to be saying that the Talmud does contain passages which say only Jews go to heaven, but that by the time of 'Rambam' (cool name, btw) this was changed and the previous belief was blamed on a notion that the earlier Jews believed they were the only righteous people.
[Edit - Rambam is no other than Maimonides who lived in Islamic Spain and later in Morocco- so perhaps his view of the Torah was influenced by the tolerance of his Muslim rulers? In any case, it appears that Rambam's interpretations were actually opposed by Rabbis at the time, so his tolerant views weren't the prevailing or previous views of Judaism - but, as I said, eh can correct this view if it is mistaken.]
The question therefore becomes, did the Jews of the 7th Century belong to those who thought they monopolised righteousness. The Jews of Arabia were surrounded by barbaric pagan Arabs who practiced female infanticide etc - so I would be surprised if they thought these guys were 'righteous'.
Anyway, over to you eh - you can tell us whether you agree with the above quote and perhaps dig out the quotes from the Talmud that say only Jews go to heaven. You can also tell us when the opinion changed and became more 'gentile-friendly'.
Cheers,
Shafique
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Cool - now all you need to do is find Jewish groups in history who, after considering the texts and teachings of Judaism, believed that only Jews entered Heaven.
As for the Jews and Ezra, you would note that there is as much evidence from that verse for your interpretation of that verse as there is for my interpretation of that verse. (In fact, I would say the verse strongly implies my reading as I have pointed out previously)
In other words, it doesn't matter too much what the verse means (I thought the Koran was clear book), since the Koran is wrong either way.
It should also be pointed out that you never addressed the points brought up throughout this thread. Perhaps acknowledging them makes it difficult for you to stand by your interpretation - as opposed to my interpretation which is supported by scholars and mainstream Islam.
To reiterate, here are the points again:
As for the Jews and Ezra, you would note that there is as much evidence from that verse for your interpretation of that verse as there is for my interpretation of that verse. (In fact, I would say the verse strongly implies my reading as I have pointed out previously)
In other words, it doesn't matter too much what the verse means (I thought the Koran was clear book), since the Koran is wrong either way.
It should also be pointed out that you never addressed the points brought up throughout this thread. Perhaps acknowledging them makes it difficult for you to stand by your interpretation - as opposed to my interpretation which is supported by scholars and mainstream Islam.
To reiterate, here are the points again:
1) Numerous ahadith demonstrate the Muslim belief held by Muslims that Jews are polytheists.
2) The Koran uses the same phrase for Christians who literally consider Jesus to be the son of God as it does for Jews who supposedly believe Ezra is the son of God.
3) Allah curses both Christians and Jews even though their 'crimes' are vastly different - with the Jews only revering a prophet but Christians actually worshiping one - committing shirk.
4) The Koran claims that Jews have taken this belief from the pagans before them - strongly implying that the charge against them is indeed polytheism.
5) There are other verses in the Koran which imply that Jews currently are not monotheists but that their ancient prophets and Muslims today are.
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Nope, I've provided a quote that says there are Talmudic verses which say only Jews go to heaven.
The same reference says that by Medieval times the view had changed - but this reinterpretation took place after God revealed the Quran.
Over to you mon-ami - please dig out the Talmudic verses which say only Jews go to heaven and explain why these didn't apply in the 7th/8th centuries. You know I'm not a Talmudic scholar, so you wouldn't trust my references anyway
Your other points don't address the fact that God does not say Jews worshipped Ezra, but that Ezra was considered a ben elohim. Ergo, you can't provide a quote where God says Jews worshipped Ezra.
I look forward, though, to reading the Talmudic verses about only Jews going to heaven when you post them here.
Cheers,
Shafique
The same reference says that by Medieval times the view had changed - but this reinterpretation took place after God revealed the Quran.
Over to you mon-ami - please dig out the Talmudic verses which say only Jews go to heaven and explain why these didn't apply in the 7th/8th centuries. You know I'm not a Talmudic scholar, so you wouldn't trust my references anyway
Your other points don't address the fact that God does not say Jews worshipped Ezra, but that Ezra was considered a ben elohim. Ergo, you can't provide a quote where God says Jews worshipped Ezra.
I look forward, though, to reading the Talmudic verses about only Jews going to heaven when you post them here.
Cheers,
Shafique
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A few problems with your quote - the passage does not say that Rabbis at the time believed all non-Jews would be excluded from the afterlife - only that the 'immoral' will.
The quote never says that this belief was widespread at the times before the belief that all non-believers could enter the afterlife became 'entrenched'.
The author says this belief was present among Jews during the time of the writing of the Talmud but he never discusses other views from the Talmud or the Bible that disagreed with what a 'few statements' in the Talmud said.
Hey, your argument is not with me, but with scholars and Muslims who read the Koran (and are aware of what Muslim tradition says) and come to the conclusion that the Koran does indeed say that Jews literally do take Ezra as the son of God. In any event, why are you splitting hairs when you still don't have any evidence to support your belief that Jews only took Ezra as a ben elohim? The Koran does not say Arabian Jews, so we can conclude that the Koran is talking of most Jews since it says 'the Jews'.
The quote never says that this belief was widespread at the times before the belief that all non-believers could enter the afterlife became 'entrenched'.
The author says this belief was present among Jews during the time of the writing of the Talmud but he never discusses other views from the Talmud or the Bible that disagreed with what a 'few statements' in the Talmud said.
Your other points don't address the fact that God does not say Jews worshipped Ezra, but that Ezra was considered a ben elohim. Ergo, you can't provide a quote where God says Jews worshipped Ezra.
Hey, your argument is not with me, but with scholars and Muslims who read the Koran (and are aware of what Muslim tradition says) and come to the conclusion that the Koran does indeed say that Jews literally do take Ezra as the son of God. In any event, why are you splitting hairs when you still don't have any evidence to support your belief that Jews only took Ezra as a ben elohim? The Koran does not say Arabian Jews, so we can conclude that the Koran is talking of most Jews since it says 'the Jews'.
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Thanks for you interpretation eh - but why don't you dig out the quotes from the Talmud being referred to and let us make up our own minds.
It is fascinating though that the Rabbi Rambam (Maimonides) had to reform Talmudic interpretation - and that this was done when living under benign Muslim rule.
Anyway, let's see the quotes (I'm not an expert on the Talmud, you keep reminding me) - and also the evidence that the reformation Rambam brought about was the prevailing beliefs at the time God revealed the Quran. All you have to show is that the Jewish tribes of Arabia believed their pagan cousins (Arab - non-Jews) would also go to heaven.
As for Ezra - I'm just taking you to task for claiming God's statement in the Quran is inaccurate and have asked you to show where God says Jews worshipped Ezra. You can't. Ergo your argument is with some scholars' opinions not with God's words.
If you can provide some quote or evidence that God says this in the Quran, perhaps we can re-visit the point. Otherwise, why don't you find out the Talmudic quotes for us - the ones that say only Jews go to heaven.
Cheers,
Shafique
It is fascinating though that the Rabbi Rambam (Maimonides) had to reform Talmudic interpretation - and that this was done when living under benign Muslim rule.
Anyway, let's see the quotes (I'm not an expert on the Talmud, you keep reminding me) - and also the evidence that the reformation Rambam brought about was the prevailing beliefs at the time God revealed the Quran. All you have to show is that the Jewish tribes of Arabia believed their pagan cousins (Arab - non-Jews) would also go to heaven.
As for Ezra - I'm just taking you to task for claiming God's statement in the Quran is inaccurate and have asked you to show where God says Jews worshipped Ezra. You can't. Ergo your argument is with some scholars' opinions not with God's words.
If you can provide some quote or evidence that God says this in the Quran, perhaps we can re-visit the point. Otherwise, why don't you find out the Talmudic quotes for us - the ones that say only Jews go to heaven.
Cheers,
Shafique
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As for Ezra - I'm just taking you to task for claiming God's statement in the Quran is inaccurate and have asked you to show where God says Jews worshipped Ezra. You can't. Ergo your argument is with some scholars' opinions not with God's words.
You've already been shown the evidence from the Koran. That you wish to ignore the points raised - such as the punishment for Christians who commit shirk is the same for Jews who consider Ezra as the son of God, is not my problem.
Anyways, I'm happy to look at evidence showing that righteous Gentiles were not allowed into 'Paradise' as the Koran says.
I did not see where the Koran says that only the Arabian Jews held this belief, so it is up to you to explain why you are now discussing only the Arabian Jews when the Koran says 'the Jews', ie., Jews in general.
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I guess you like flogging dead horses eh.
When you find a verse where God says Jews worshipped Ezra, then we can pursue this particular strawman of yours.
You wanted to move on to the question of Jewish belief of who goes to heaven.
We are now waiting for you to dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and explain whether or not this was the belief at the time God revealed the Quran.
Note I haven't said anything about 'only Arabian' Jews believing in this Talmudic teaching - how could I, I've admitted I'm not an expert of the Talmud, let alone what 7th century Arabian Jews believed.
All I've done is look at what a Jewish website says on the subject - and it says the Talmud does say only Jews go to heaven, but by the time Rambam reformed Talmudic interpretation - he believed otherwise.
So, over to you - please produce the quotations from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and then explain why you think Jews (generally and/or in Arabia) did not believe this when God revealed the Quran. (Just for fun, you could clarify whether the religious terrorist you refuse to codemn, Baruch Goldstein and the supporters of his actions believe that Muslims/Arabs will go to heaven)
Cheers,
Shafique
When you find a verse where God says Jews worshipped Ezra, then we can pursue this particular strawman of yours.
You wanted to move on to the question of Jewish belief of who goes to heaven.
We are now waiting for you to dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and explain whether or not this was the belief at the time God revealed the Quran.
Note I haven't said anything about 'only Arabian' Jews believing in this Talmudic teaching - how could I, I've admitted I'm not an expert of the Talmud, let alone what 7th century Arabian Jews believed.
All I've done is look at what a Jewish website says on the subject - and it says the Talmud does say only Jews go to heaven, but by the time Rambam reformed Talmudic interpretation - he believed otherwise.
So, over to you - please produce the quotations from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and then explain why you think Jews (generally and/or in Arabia) did not believe this when God revealed the Quran. (Just for fun, you could clarify whether the religious terrorist you refuse to codemn, Baruch Goldstein and the supporters of his actions believe that Muslims/Arabs will go to heaven)
Cheers,
Shafique
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We are now waiting for you to dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and explain whether or not this was the belief at the time God revealed the Quran.
I'm the one who denies this belief. Logically, it would be on you to find these quotes/historians who say that Jews believed, after considering all the passages from the Talmud, that non-Jews do not enter paradise - even the 'righteous' ones.
We can also see if this belief was widespread and the times when groups of Jews, if any, actually held this belief.
Note I haven't said anything about 'only Arabian' Jews believing in this Talmudic teaching - how could I, I've admitted I'm not an expert of the Talmud, let alone what 7th century Arabian Jews believed.
Excellent - this makes my part that much simpler - the fact that there is no recorded evidence for this belief amongst Jews, both in Arabia and elsewhere, shows that Jews did not consider Ezra as 'ben elohim'.
It's interesting that you have not addressed the points of that particular verse along with what the Koran says elsewhere of the Jews.
I can understand that it is difficult for you to maintain your belief if you were to consider the fact that a simple reading of vs. 9:30 indicates that the Koran is saying that the Jews literally took Ezra as a son of God - a charge that the Koran also makes against the Christians in regards to Jesus.
As I said before, if your interpretation is correct, one wonders why Allah would punish the Jews for only revering a prophet as much as Christians for committing shirk. Surely the term 'ben elohim' is only an honorific title, no worse (in fact, arguably less polytheistic) than how Muslims revere the Koran and Muhammad.
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I produced a quote from a Jewish website which says that the Talmud has verses which say only Jews go to heaven.
I have no reason to doubt this information, and for me that is sufficient to show that God's revelation in the Quran is not an inaccuracy.
However, as you've often presented yourself as more knowledgeable of the Talmud than me - I leave it to you to provide the quotes.
After all, you are the one who claims this is an inaccuracy, but seemed to be unaware that the Talmud agrees with God's words.
As for Ezra, my challenge to you is quite simple - show where God says Jews worshipped Ezra. From what you have quoted, God only says that Jews considered him a ben elohim. Inferring what God may have meant because of an interpretation of a punishment is grasping at straws and smacks of desperation - just show us where God says Ezra was worshipped, or admit that this is not in the Quran. All mouth, no trousers again??
Cheers,
Shafique
I have no reason to doubt this information, and for me that is sufficient to show that God's revelation in the Quran is not an inaccuracy.
However, as you've often presented yourself as more knowledgeable of the Talmud than me - I leave it to you to provide the quotes.
After all, you are the one who claims this is an inaccuracy, but seemed to be unaware that the Talmud agrees with God's words.
As for Ezra, my challenge to you is quite simple - show where God says Jews worshipped Ezra. From what you have quoted, God only says that Jews considered him a ben elohim. Inferring what God may have meant because of an interpretation of a punishment is grasping at straws and smacks of desperation - just show us where God says Ezra was worshipped, or admit that this is not in the Quran. All mouth, no trousers again??
Cheers,
Shafique
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Inferring what God may have meant because of an interpretation of a punishment is grasping at straws and smacks of desperation
Nope - not desperation, just logical.
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So, we wait for you to provide the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven and explain how God was wrong to state that Jews believed this.
And for Ezra, you seem to concede that God does not say Jews worshipped Ezra, but that you infer this based on a 'logical argument'. Fair enough, I've conceded you believe your quaint beliefs are logical, so this is just another example.
I am looking forward to reading the sections of the Talmud that say only Jews go to heaven and reading your interpretation of these - I'm sure I will learn something, as you are quite right - I am indeed no expert on the Talmud.
I'm also looking to your future examples of so-called 'inaccuracies' and trust that the future ones won't be dispelled so easily.
Cheers,
Shafique
And for Ezra, you seem to concede that God does not say Jews worshipped Ezra, but that you infer this based on a 'logical argument'. Fair enough, I've conceded you believe your quaint beliefs are logical, so this is just another example.
I am looking forward to reading the sections of the Talmud that say only Jews go to heaven and reading your interpretation of these - I'm sure I will learn something, as you are quite right - I am indeed no expert on the Talmud.
I'm also looking to your future examples of so-called 'inaccuracies' and trust that the future ones won't be dispelled so easily.
Cheers,
Shafique
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I'm still waiting for evidence that the Jews took Ezra as a 'ben elohim'. God says this in the Koran, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this belief. All the texts we have on medieval Judaism - and it is quite extensive, but not one jot in support of what God claims.
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So we agree that God only says Ezra was considered a ben elohim in the Quran. Cool - that's progress.
If you look back, you will find I have quoted Newby on this point. I note you haven't produced any shred of evidence that the Jews did NOT consider Ezra a ben elohim (if anything, he is a poster boy for the term - the guy who reconstructed the lost scriptures etc)
So, when can we expect to see these quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and thereby confirm that God was right?
Cheers,
Shafique
If you look back, you will find I have quoted Newby on this point. I note you haven't produced any shred of evidence that the Jews did NOT consider Ezra a ben elohim (if anything, he is a poster boy for the term - the guy who reconstructed the lost scriptures etc)
So, when can we expect to see these quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven, and thereby confirm that God was right?
Cheers,
Shafique
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I've addressed Newby's speculation. We already established that Newby also does not provide any evidence for his theory - just a lot of 'what ifs' or 'could haves' - and that was in regards to the Jews of Arabia.
The Koran does not make this charge against the Arabian Jews but against 'the Jews'.
The Koran does not make this charge against the Arabian Jews but against 'the Jews'.
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Fine, you disagree with Newby - I don't. I stated a while back, the evidence on both sides has been presented - so now it is up to people to choose who to believe. At least we've clarified that God only says that Ezra is a ben elohim and that your strawman of Jews worshipping Ezra is a result of a 'logical argument'.
So, when can we see these quotes from the Talmud?
Cheers,
Shafique
So, when can we see these quotes from the Talmud?
Cheers,
Shafique
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I hope you agree with your own post on the issue of hypotheticals:
Some words of wisdom to live by. You want me to concede to a point that I doubt Newby actually conceded to. Thank you for posting that on the other thread - I totally agree!
Why do you want me to concede to a point which Berrin's long list of references disputes?
If Muhammad, pbuh, had murdered entire villages - women, children and oxen - like Moses is described in the Bible, then I would condemn that as a clear war crime. But it is a big if.
Would you concede that if you molest little girls, I would condemn you. Would you concede that IF your father slept with your sister as a child, I would condemn him as a paedophile and condemn the incest. If you were born out of that union - I would pity you and your sister. Would you join me in condemning these people if they had done these actions?
I hope you get the point - think about how anyone would feel if asked to concede to the hypotheticals in the previous paragraph?
So, will you or won't you address the references Berrin gives for the age of Aisha?
Some words of wisdom to live by. You want me to concede to a point that I doubt Newby actually conceded to. Thank you for posting that on the other thread - I totally agree!
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You're not still going on about Ezra are you?
I'm not asking you concede to anything - I've already said that you have a different 'belief' to myself and Newby (and that both sides have presented their arguments).
You haven't shown that the Jews did NOT consider Ezra to be a ben elohim, and therefore can't show that God made an error in the Quran on this point.
But hey, when/if you have a new argument, I'll be happy to revisit this - until then, I'll just be repeating myself if I say 'the evidence for both arguments have been presented'.
Now, when can we expect to read the references from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven? I am looking forward to reading your explanations about how these references stack up against God's words in the Quran on the subject.
Cheers,
Shafique
I'm not asking you concede to anything - I've already said that you have a different 'belief' to myself and Newby (and that both sides have presented their arguments).
You haven't shown that the Jews did NOT consider Ezra to be a ben elohim, and therefore can't show that God made an error in the Quran on this point.
But hey, when/if you have a new argument, I'll be happy to revisit this - until then, I'll just be repeating myself if I say 'the evidence for both arguments have been presented'.
Now, when can we expect to read the references from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven? I am looking forward to reading your explanations about how these references stack up against God's words in the Quran on the subject.
Cheers,
Shafique
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shafique wrote:
Now, when can we expect to read the references from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven? I am looking forward to reading your explanations about how these references stack up against God's words in the Quran on the subject.
Cheers,
Shafique
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So, do you concede that the Koran is historically inaccurate when it claims that Jews take Ezra as the son of God - when there is absolutely no historical evidence showing that?
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The fact that you believe Jews did not take Ezra as a ben elohim, whereas scholars such as Newby think it is probable they did - shows more about your beliefs rather than God's accuracy.
(There's no historical evidence that Moses or Adam or Joseph ever existed either - so perhaps we should reject the Bible and Quran on this basis? But on the point of Jews taking Ezra as a ben elohim - I have given one historian's view - you haven't shown anyone that disputes this.)
But, moving on to your second allegation - when will you dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven?
Surely you're not going to evade this question and give us another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment?
Cheers,
Shafique
(There's no historical evidence that Moses or Adam or Joseph ever existed either - so perhaps we should reject the Bible and Quran on this basis? But on the point of Jews taking Ezra as a ben elohim - I have given one historian's view - you haven't shown anyone that disputes this.)
But, moving on to your second allegation - when will you dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven?
Surely you're not going to evade this question and give us another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment?
Cheers,
Shafique
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shafique wrote:
But, moving on to your second allegation - when will you dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say that only Jews go to heaven?
Surely you're not going to evade this question and give us another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment?
Cheers,
Shafique
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I haven't seen any evidence that the Jews took Ezra as the son of God. Do you have any ?
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I've not seen any evidence that Newby is wrong either. But that was your first allegation - and one where I said we had both presented our evidence and it is up to others to decide which view is correct - God says Ezra was viewed as a 'ben elohim' and Newby says this is probably true. You haven't presented any evidence, from anyone, to dispute this view.
I've presented my evidence for the first allegation - the question about the Talmud is about you presenting your evidence for the second allegation.
The Talmud contains verses which corroborates what God says - that there was a belief that only Jews went to heaven. As you rightly pointed out before, I'm not Talmudic scholar - therefore we are waiting for you to quote these verses (which are referred to by the Jewish website I quoted and linked to) and explain why you think God's words are inaccurate in light of these Talmudic verses which confirm what God says.
Will you back up your allegation, or is this ANOTHER 'all mouth, no trousers' moment?
Cheers,
Shafique
I've presented my evidence for the first allegation - the question about the Talmud is about you presenting your evidence for the second allegation.
The Talmud contains verses which corroborates what God says - that there was a belief that only Jews went to heaven. As you rightly pointed out before, I'm not Talmudic scholar - therefore we are waiting for you to quote these verses (which are referred to by the Jewish website I quoted and linked to) and explain why you think God's words are inaccurate in light of these Talmudic verses which confirm what God says.
Will you back up your allegation, or is this ANOTHER 'all mouth, no trousers' moment?
Cheers,
Shafique
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If you at least give us the reference in the Talmud for these verses, I am happy to cut and paste them here. However, I would not know where to start - so over to you.
You made the allegation, so I'd expect you to provide at least some evidence.
Cheers,
Shafique
You made the allegation, so I'd expect you to provide at least some evidence.
Cheers,
Shafique
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Have you already forgotten? Newby does not provide fact to discredit. His argument is based on 'ifs' and 'maybes'. That Newby is playing devils advocate with the Koran, and you do not see this, does not surprise me in the least.
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I understand you don't want to believe Newby's conclusions - however I asked whether you could find any other expert that disagreed with his conclusion that Ezra was considered a ben elohimM
Your opinion does not qualify (just to be clear)
I'm coninved by Newby - and his evidence backs up God's statement that Ezra was considered a ben elohim (and also note that God does not say they worshipped him, which is what you have shown that there is no evidence of)
Cheers
Shafique
Your opinion does not qualify (just to be clear)
I'm coninved by Newby - and his evidence backs up God's statement that Ezra was considered a ben elohim (and also note that God does not say they worshipped him, which is what you have shown that there is no evidence of)
Cheers
Shafique
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shafique wrote:I understand you don't want to believe Newby's conclusions - however I asked whether you could find any other expert that disagreed with his conclusion that Ezra was considered a ben elohimM
Your opinion does not qualify (just to be clear)
I'm coninved by Newby - and his evidence backs up God's statement that Ezra was considered a ben elohim (and also note that God does not say they worshipped him, which is what you have shown that there is no evidence of)
Cheers
Shafique
Check out the wikipedia link. Scholar after scholar is cited showing that the Koran is wrong.
and his evidence backs up God's statement that Ezra
Please post this evidence.
- event horizon
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So, will you back up your second allegation and dig out the quotes from the Talmud which say only Jews go to heaven?
As for wiki - they are all saying jews did not worship ezra. I agree that there is no evidence of this.
You quoted God only saying jews considered him a ben elohim.
Anyway, I hope you are going to get the quotes from the talmud for your second allegation.
Cheerts
Shafique
As for wiki - they are all saying jews did not worship ezra. I agree that there is no evidence of this.
You quoted God only saying jews considered him a ben elohim.
Anyway, I hope you are going to get the quotes from the talmud for your second allegation.
Cheerts
Shafique
- shafique
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So eh - will you ever look up the references from the Talmud which confirm what God says in the Quran (that Jews believed that only Jews go to heaven) or are you conceding that your second alleged inaccuracy is also based on wishful thinking?
Cheers,
Shafique
Cheers,
Shafique
- shafique
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