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Has anyone read this? I have just started(OOOOHHHH) and wanted to see what anyone thought of the theories behind it.

read what ? i dont get you man

The Communist Manifesto, sub-genius

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:The Communist Manifesto, sub-genius

I've read the abridged version. makes an awful lot of sense to me

I enjoyed reading the summarized version (OK it was three pages but I am a lazy bum)... One day I will read it all...

Has anyone read Mein Kampf? Gives so much insight into the man involved in the carnage of WWII....

Liban wrote:I enjoyed reading the summarized version (OK it was three pages but I am a lazy bum)... One day I will read it all...

Has anyone read Mein Kampf? Gives so much insight into the man involved in the carnage of WWII....

no, but i'd like to. Can you get it in Dubai?

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:The Communist Manifesto, sub-genius

hahahahahahaha right on !!!!

BobbieMasoner wrote:

Liban wrote:I enjoyed reading the summarized version (OK it was three pages but I am a lazy bum)... One day I will read it all...

Has anyone read Mein Kampf? Gives so much insight into the man involved in the carnage of WWII....

no, but i'd like to. Can you get it in Dubai?

You can get anything in Dubai

If all else fails try amazon...

Liban wrote:

BobbieMasoner wrote:

Liban wrote:I enjoyed reading the summarized version (OK it was three pages but I am a lazy bum)... One day I will read it all...

Has anyone read Mein Kampf? Gives so much insight into the man involved in the carnage of WWII....

no, but i'd like to. Can you get it in Dubai?

You can get anything in Dubai

If all else fails try amazon...

will do. cheers

I like how Marx wants to fight for the common working man, but his ideas would never hold weight in today's society because of mass media and all the different jobs and industries being created everyday.

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:I like how Marx wants to fight for the common working man, but his ideas would never hold weight in today's society because of mass media and all the different jobs and industries being created everyday.

well,, Marx's ideas are involving preventing the induviual from his right in possesing things ,,, i dont say that the idea of fighting for common workers is not good ,, on the contrary ,,but the whole frame that Marx has offered his idea sucks ,, Comunism sucks man .

i dont agree with the capitalism either ,,, there should be a kind of a balance .

Capitalism is the only thing that can activily survive the world of today. Competition is nessasary in everything to bring about better product. It's true in nature too.

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:Capitalism is the only thing that can activily survive the world of today. Competition is nessasary in everything to bring about better product. It's true in nature too.

ok ,, i agree with the competion itself ,,, but capitalism involves crushing people for money also .

i dont mean that i tatally disagree with it ... it has some weaknesses that might not come tu the surface only after years ,, who knows ,, just like what happened with comunism .

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:Capitalism is the only thing that can activily survive the world of today. Competition is nessasary in everything to bring about better product. It's true in nature too.

ok ,, i agree with the competion itself ,,, but capitalism involves crushing people for money also .

i dont mean that i tatally disagree with it ... it has some weaknesses that might not come tu the surface only after years ,, who knows ,, just like what happened with comunism .

daaaaaamn ,, why my post was submitted twice ,,, the forum is getting crazy coz of Marx man .

Well there's a distinct difference between Marx's vision and the monolithic structure that communism became...Marx's ideals were perverted by the likes of Stalin, who was after personal power (Has anyone read George Orwell's Animal Farm, fascinating book which tells the same story in simple lucid terms)

Socialism has influenced the world today, we are not entirely a capitalist society; if we were exclusively capitalist, conditions would be similar to the exploitative scenario against which Marx made his stand, rife with colonialism, class struggle and a lack of humanitarianism, imagine being a worker in post industrial revolution london, it was a depressing time...Socialism tempers the harder uncaring edge of capitalism, yin and yang I'd say, you need both, the success of the liberal socialist parties in countries such as Britain is evidence that Marx did change the world; you can't judge socialism on the basis of communism, any more than you can on the basis of another socialist perversion, Nazism

But do agree totally with Pump though that a lack of competition can lead to stagnation, so yeah you can't do away with capitalist ideals either

Nik wrote:Well there's a distinct difference between Marx's vision and the monolithic structure that communism became...Marx's ideals were perverted by the likes of Stalin, who was after personal power (Has anyone read George Orwell's Animal Farm, fascinating book which tells the same story in simple lucid terms)

Socialism has influenced the world today, we are not entirely a capitalist society; if we were exclusively capitalist, conditions would be similar to the exploitative scenario against which Marx made his stand, rife with colonialism, class struggle and a lack of humanitarianism, imagine being a worker in post industrial revolution london, it was a depressing time...Socialism tempers the harder uncaring edge of capitalism, yin and yang I'd say, you need both, the success of the liberal socialist parties in countries such as Britain is evidence that Marx did change the world; you can't judge socialism on the basis of communism, any more than you can on the basis of another socialist perversion, Nazism

But do agree totally with Pump though that a lack of competition can lead to stagnation, so yeah you can't do away with capitalist ideals either

Damn Nik, remind me never to get into an arguement with you

Lol you better believe it Bobbi! I can get a helluva lot more wordy and purple prosy And I will not relent from such well thought out counterpoints as 'but she started it!' and 'I know you are but what am I'

Nik wrote:Well there's a distinct difference between Marx's vision and the monolithic structure that communism became...Marx's ideals were perverted by the likes of Stalin, who was after personal power (Has anyone read George Orwell's Animal Farm, fascinating book which tells the same story in simple lucid terms)

Socialism has influenced the world today, we are not entirely a capitalist society; if we were exclusively capitalist, conditions would be similar to the exploitative scenario against which Marx made his stand, rife with colonialism, class struggle and a lack of humanitarianism, imagine being a worker in post industrial revolution london, it was a depressing time...Socialism tempers the harder uncaring edge of capitalism, yin and yang I'd say, you need both, the success of the liberal socialist parties in countries such as Britain is evidence that Marx did change the world; you can't judge socialism on the basis of communism, any more than you can on the basis of another socialist perversion, Nazism

But do agree totally with Pump though that a lack of competition can lead to stagnation, so yeah you can't do away with capitalist ideals either

well,, ok ,, but i have a comment here .

the fact is that Marx didnt come up with anything new, i mean of course we would consider it new in the contemporary world ,, but - according to a friend who is comunist and a great fan of Marx - Prophet Muhammad pbuh , is the idle that Marx relied on for his thoughts , of course Marx doesnt believe in the Prophet as a Prophet ,,, he just consider him a man who came with briliant ideas for that time ,,, and again according to that friend , its mentioned in some of Marx books or book ,, i dont know .


to be honoust ,, i didnt read this by myself ,, i didnt see it with my eyes ,,, but it is what a great fan of Marx has said .


i am not trying to turn it into religion here guys ,, but i thought to mention it .

Nik wrote:Well there's a distinct difference between Marx's vision and the monolithic structure that communism became...Marx's ideals were perverted by the likes of Stalin, who was after personal power (Has anyone read George Orwell's Animal Farm, fascinating book which tells the same story in simple lucid terms)

Socialism has influenced the world today, we are not entirely a capitalist society; if we were exclusively capitalist, conditions would be similar to the exploitative scenario against which Marx made his stand, rife with colonialism, class struggle and a lack of humanitarianism, imagine being a worker in post industrial revolution london, it was a depressing time...Socialism tempers the harder uncaring edge of capitalism, yin and yang I'd say, you need both, the success of the liberal socialist parties in countries such as Britain is evidence that Marx did change the world; you can't judge socialism on the basis of communism, any more than you can on the basis of another socialist perversion, Nazism

But do agree totally with Pump though that a lack of competition can lead to stagnation, so yeah you can't do away with capitalist ideals either

again ,,, i mentioned in a previous post , that we need a kind of balance between the two things Capitalism and Socialism.

once again i am not trying to direct the discussion towards religion ,, but i cant help it,,, but on the other hand i will be talking about a particular part of the financial structure in Islam.


in islam there is Capitalism and Socialism ,, of course they didnt know the Terms themeselves at that time ... in Islam you can possess ,, any thing - unless that something in particular is prohibited to be possessed - on the other hand poors have a determined right with your money ,,, even they didnt help you to get it ,, they didnt work for you ,,, nothing . and its not much taking in consideration its conditions and terms ,and the most important its rate >>> its 2.5% its called Zakah ,, and its not the donation that any one might give to the Poor all out of his will ,, its an obligatory thing to whome , the conditions below applies ,, of what you have ,,,,,, but ,, not every thing you have ofcourse ,,, there is limitations ,,, for example you dont pay the Zakah for having a home ,, you dont pay Zakah on gold that a woman is using as all woman use, you dont pay Zakah for the money that you are moving in the market if you are a trader . and more other details .

you pay Zakah for money that you possess without taking advantage of it ,, for example your money kept in the bank like savings . or even the gold of your wife if she is not using it . or the goods you are keeping in a store .......... etc.


now ,,, there is a limit at which the paying of Zakah starts ,, i mean you dont pay for any savings in the bank ,, its estimated in gold ,,, 85 Grams of gold or more is the limit ( of course golden bars ,not the manufactured gold ) ,, or of course its equivalant of the currency of the country where you live . so lets say that a Gram of gold = Dhs. 70/- then the limit is 70x85 =5950 Dirhams would be the limit here in UAE. so you pay Zakah , only if you have this sum ( or more than it ) of money or gold ,,or whatever is equivalant goods , silver .......etc

now ,, there is another amazing condition ,,, you dont have to pay Zakah , till this sum of money or its equavalant stays without being used for a whole one year ,, so there are two conditions till you be obliged to pay Zakah ,,, amount and time ..... but of course this amout should be paid each year as long as the two conditions are existed .

if you will count the amount of Zakah you will pay ,, you will find it very very very little ,,,, for the sum mentined above its : Dhs. 5950 x 2.5% = Dhs. 148.75/- ,,, wooooow ,, i think its toooo much less than little ,, considering that you are paying this amount to the Poor . of course amounts will come in millions for rich people !!!! and here is the great thing ... if this is applied you will not find a single poor in the world .

In one of the Calif's time they reached a point of that didnt find a single poor to pay him the Zakah,, ( i mean his share or what he needs ) , then that Calif ,, spent the money on social improving ,,, helping men who cant afford the expenses of marriages to get married .... etc .



sorry guys if i annoyed you with too much talking about that ,, but i found it usefull to mention it as we were speaking about financial basis in the world . but imagine that this basis is being applied ,,,, how great would be the life of every one on this planet ,,, i know that there taxes imposed in europe ,usa .... etc . but how are they being spent ???? i know that they spend part of it on social aids to the un-employed people. but the taxes imposed are too much for the rich people ... and they always try to get away from it ...

Britain is a good example of both capitalism and socialism. I do agree the should be a middle ground, but only for the securing of rights for the people that make the goods. In the book, the theories he talks about, to me, seem to have already existed in past civilizations such as Native Americans, that produce for the good of the commune, instead of for personal wealth and gain.

Canada is a better example.

Nobody likes Canada, Liban, sorry!

Interesting subject here eh, The Communist Manifesto.

I had read the Manifesto. It is some kind of a blueprint in achieving a utopian society wherein the workers (including employees, teachers, and other professionals), being the majority has the control of state power. For short, it is called the "dictatorship of the proletariat." Here, no individual owns large companies or corporations. There are no investors or capitalists that would exploit the workers (through low or subsistence wages, unpaid benefits, etc.) and profit from it. Now, let me describe how it is:

For example: a worker has created in a single day a product that has a market value of 500 Aed. That employee worked for eight hours to finish that product and yet he was paid only 100 Aed by the capitalist. In effect, a surplus value of 400 Aed was realized and this will go to the pocket of the capitalist who has not done or created anything and yet he profited from it. Sounds unfair right? Just think of it in the millions.

However, capitalism is the dominant economic system at present because these capitalists are in the position to do so. State power is in their hands. A concrete example of this is the military-industrial complex in the US. Because of this, US defense contractors are in close contact with government officials and some of them even contributed in the campaign kitty of that tenant in the White House. They are so powerful that most of the time they influence key policies of the US government particularly in foreign affairs. Since these defense contractors mass produced weapons, they created a glut thereby driving the price of their products downward. So what they did is to urge the US government to sell some of their weapons to other countries and... even intervene (or invade other countries for whatever reason) to test the effectiveness of their new weapon systems.

By the way, do you know that the elder George W. Bush has a business tie-up with the family of Osama bin Laden before 9/11?

In reality, no country has ever reached that stage of society which is communism. The author, Karl Marx, describes imperialism as the highest form of capitalism wherein at this stage it is monopoly capitalism that holds sway. Monopoly capitalism came into existence because of competition among capitalists. They realized that to survive competition, they must merge to serve their common interests and this evolved into monopoly capitalism which is very powerful. Today, monopoly capitalism has reached the four corners of the globe in the form of multinational or transnational corporations to seek profit and exploit the poor people of other countries.

Before, they were able to divide the world market where they can dump their surplus products among nations but fierce competition from their capitalist countries (i.e. US, France, Germany, Japan, etc.) led to World War II. But because of this past mistake and the emergence of new economic power (i.e. China, India) that further shrunk the world market, they created the WTO or World Trade Organization where they slug it out with one another. Notice that whenever there would be a summit or gathering of WTO members there are always protest actions around the globe? Now throw in the great strides in technology that created a virtually borderless world and you will have globalism.

In the end, according to Marx, communism will only be achieved if all the proletariat in the whole world will be united against capitalism. In other words, all countries should have reached the stage of socialism (not of the kind China is practicing) before communism shall exist.

So there it is folks. I hope I had contributed a little of my knowledge of it.

Pumpkin Escobar wrote:Nobody likes Canada, Liban, sorry!

You watch too much south park

Blame Canada!!!!!!


Anyway, Marx seems to blame the Industrial Revolution for alot of the problems within France, Germany, and UK workers troubles. But like I said before, technology has helped mankind jump forward in producing enough of everything for the people. Of course it has also creatd some evil(Nukes)

Communism is the best governemt system available yet...
but not Stalinism coz he is a betrayer of Communism...
IF u think capitalist is good Look at the US.
Crime
no welfare

because Capitalism evolved into the most dangerous govt system yet
and Full Scale Fascism...

Fascism was created by Mussolani but completed by the American Government

Fascism and Communism clash

bsorc wrote:Communism is the best governemt system available yet...
but not Stalinism coz he is a betrayer of Communism...
IF u think capitalist is good Look at the US.
Crime
no welfare

because Capitalism evolved into the most dangerous govt system yet
and Full Scale Fascism...

Fascism was created by Mussolani but completed by the American Government

Fascism and Communism clash

But what's so amazing about the US, is how we are still one of the best nations even with all those problems. I think it is because of the individual American and not the Gov(at all)

You need look no further than your own city... Look at Dubai.... Prime example of a capitalistic society... Look at what you can accomplish if you focus and dedicate yourself....

Liban wrote:You need look no further than your own city... Look at Dubai.... Prime example of a capitalistic society... Look at what you can accomplish if you focus and dedicate yourself....

So we should hate Dubai more than the States!