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With the collapse of Ja'far Al Sadiq's empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal's slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik's Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa's Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?

The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?


In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:

In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�

In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�

In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...

In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...

In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)...

In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...

In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...

In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...

In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...

In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...

In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...

In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time�

In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...

In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...

In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.

Welcome | free-minds.org

Koran is peace!

Thanks - some of your points I agree with, some others I don't.

You're not a 'submitter' by any chance?

A long time ago I had long discussions with a group who called themselves 'submitters' (as opposed to 'Muslims') and believed in a Quran code which was 'discovered' by a certain Rashad Khalifa and based on the number 19. Unfortunately there was a bug in his initial calculations and when discovered he had to delete some verses of the Quran (the last verses of Ch 9, IIRC) to make the Quran fit his code. I still have a copy of his 'authorised translation' - where he claims that God is speaking about him in the Quran.

When I left debating them, the group was in the process of disintegration with rival factions breaking off headed up by people claiming to be new prophets.

I've often wondered what became of these guys - so, are you views just a coincidence or are you one of those who believe(d) in Mr Khalifa's 19 code?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Thanks - some of your points I agree with, some others I don't.

You're not a 'submitter' by any chance?

A long time ago I had long discussions with a group who called themselves 'submitters' (as opposed to 'Muslims') and believed in a Quran code which was 'discovered' by a certain Rashad Khalifa and based on the number 19. Unfortunately there was a bug in his initial calculations and when discovered he had to delete some verses of the Quran (the last verses of Ch 9, IIRC) to make the Quran fit his code. I still have a copy of his 'authorised translation' - where he claims that God is speaking about him in the Quran.

When I left debating them, the group was in the process of disintegration with rival factions breaking off headed up by people claiming to be new prophets.

I've often wondered what became of these guys - so, are you views just a coincidence or are you one of those who believe(d) in Mr Khalifa's 19 code?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry about the font. No, I don't believe in the 19 code and I believe Rashad Khalifa was not a good person. He became famous because of Ahmed Deedat and I guess got big headed or something. The two verses story was taken from Sunni traditions that said two verses of surat Ahzab was placed on the chapter after the prophet and there was a dispute about it. Many people said his mathematical code was erroneous anyways. Some Quranist still believe that however although many do not know about Rashad Khalifah. I know Edip Yuksel believes in code 19 and he is a proper Quranist. I know him well. He does not follow rashad. Rashad I think claimed he is a messenger or something. But I don't care much about the 19 code.

Frankly I see no reason for these two verses to be suspect. There would have been far more important verses for people to have tampered with if they could have. The Quran is a protected literature and there has not been any textual variants ever found anywhere.

Thats Sana' manuscripts found in Yemen people say has variants is vowel variants and not text. The Arabic language does not use letters for vowels in most cases but uses marks placed on top or below the text. Early Quranic texts did not have these vowels. But every word found in those manuscripts are identical to the ones we have today.

That Rashad Khalifah person has just a few followers and the vast majority of Quranist never heard of him let alone follow him. I only heard about him maybe two years after being a Quranist when somebody asked me the same question. He has some lectures in youtube. Anyways the man died so he is in God's hands now.

Quran is peace!

Thanks for clarifying - I too looked into the 19 code and the issue over the 'added verses' which needed to be removed to make the code work.


However, let me see what your response is to an argument I put to 'submitters' when they are argued that we should rely on Quran alone and not consult 'sunnah' (practices of the Prophet, pbuh) and his Hadith (recorded sayings)

Basically, God tells us in the Quran that Abraham offered the following prayer:

2.129:
‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’

Universally, this is taken to have been fulfilled in the person of Muhammad, pbuh.

The prayer specifically asks God to send a Messenger who will not only bring scripture, but teach people what is in the scripture ('Book').

I asked a simple question - do they believe God answered this prayer? If so, then Muhammad, pbuh, needed to have taught what was in the Quran - and therefore we do need to listen to what he taught, and this is only recorded in the histories of his actions and the Hadith.

Cheers,
Shafique

There is nothing wrong with taking hadiths as long as they don't contradict the Quran and is not made obligatory on people. Many Judaic oral traditions, known as Mishna, made their way to the Quran. Such Abraham and the fire, Solomon and the Jinns and Hudhud, the raising of the Toor mountain during Moses and the covenant and some others. The Quran only condemned aspect of the Rabbanic fatwas, Gemara, that gave Jewish exceptionalism and superiority over mankind and allowed them to sin towards non Jews.

The other day a Quranist attacked circumcission sayoing its not Quranic. I pointed to him that it does not contradict the Quran so there is no harm in performing it. The 5 prayers does not contradict the Quran, so is the Tawaf around Ka'ba and throwing the stone at the devil. these are rituals and like any other ritual it depends on why you are doing. The Quran itself says:

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

So rituals are a means to an end and not an end by themselves. Most hadiths do not contradict the Quran and encourage many good deeds.

However hadiths about killing apostates, or excuting prisoners or raping or enslaving female prisoners and so forth contradict the Quran. We must also never accept the concept of abrogation as it renders the Quranic verses obsolete. Then what is it still doing there in the Quran?

The Quran never attacked the Judaic oral traditions themselves but attacked the rabbanic fatwas that abrogate many of the teachings of the old testament and led to the rejection of jesus and the Gospel by the Jews. Jesus, as we know, condemned many aspects of rabbinic Judaism.

So hadiths by themselves and the rituals of Islam like Haj, Ramadan and Tawwaf and Friday prayers do not contradict the Quran. But I believe it should not be made obligatory on mankind.

Generally speaking I see the Quran as the final arbitrator on all matters. many Quranist accept hadiths that don't contradict the Quran and perform the same rituals as Sunnis. But they also accept those who wish to perform the rituals as per their Quranic interpretation. Rituals in the end are a means to an end and not an end by themselves, as Sunnism teaches.

Also remember these arguments have nothing to do with a person's faith. these arguments are purely dogmatic arguments. God won't ask humans these questions as this is not about their daily lives. The Quran tells us:

O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into races and tribes, so that you may identify one another. Surely the noblest of you, in Allah‘s sight, is the one who is most pious of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Hujurat) 49-13

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (5:69).

124. If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them. (4:124)

So these issues to me are dogmatic arguments but does not affect a person's faith. A Sunni could have more faith than a Quranist and vice versa. Faith is in the heart and mind of humans.

Finally I would say abrogation is the most dangerous doctrine as it renders the verses of the Quran obsolete. This is the most dangerous thing a person can ever do.

The Trinity contradicts not only the Quran but the Gospel and Old Testament. Not a single prophet in any literature preached that and in fact it goes against everything they preached. The Trinity was introduced through a closed door democratic process 3 centuries after Jesus at the council of Nicea. At least thats where it was codified and made into a doctrine. It has nothing to do with the Gospel and as the Quran says Christians who preach that use textual evidence by taking things out of context and hiding other verses from the Gospel because they know their is no textual evidence for that in the Gospel but indeed many use deception. I have found this out myself in debating Christians.

Sunnism problem is that they wanted to create a theocracy to rival the Byzantines and then they moved backwards. There is no theocracy in the Quran and there is no orthodoxy. The Gospel in fact is even less theocratic. Yet as we know the Quran sees them both as Shariah and Manhaj.

5.43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

5.44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

5.45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah

All these scriptures are Shariah, but not the Shariah the sects teach. It is Shariah meaning religious laws and guidance. The Gospel has no communal laws in them yet the Quran still said that Christians should abide by its laws. Every prophet has his own biography, but their religion is one. All were believers(Mu'mins), or were Submitters(Muslims), and all were God's victors(Nasara), all were Guided(Hadou).

At least that my take of the Quran.

Thebigmo wrote:There is nothing wrong with taking hadiths as long as they don't contradict the Quran and is not made obligatory on people.

I agree - any Hadith which contradicts the Quran is to be rejected.

Therefore, by extension, you have no objection to the Sunnah (practices of the Prophet, pbuh) provided they don't contradict the Quran.

Another strange quirk I disagreed with the 'submitters' over - was their insistence that the call to prayer used by Muslims was wrong.

Thebigmo wrote:However hadiths about killing apostates, or excuting prisoners or raping or enslaving female prisoners and so forth contradict the Quran. We must also never accept the concept of abrogation as it renders the Quranic verses obsolete. Then what is it still doing there in the Quran?

Agreed.

Thebigmo wrote:Generally speaking I see the Quran as the final arbitrator on all matters. many Quranist accept hadiths that don't contradict the Quran and perform the same rituals as Sunnis. But they also accept those who wish to perform the rituals as per their Quranic interpretation. Rituals in the end are a means to an end and not an end by themselves, as Sunnism teaches.

This is where I'd say I make reference to 'sunnah' rather than Hadith to ascertain which 'rituals' are 'obligatory', which are recommended, which are harmless and which are forbidden.

Thebigmo wrote:Finally I would say abrogation is the most dangerous doctrine as it renders the verses of the Quran obsolete. This is the most dangerous thing a person can ever do.

It is also illogical - that's why I don't believe in abrogation (and in fact, no verse has been abrogated or contradicts another verse - we've had threads on this subject here).

Thanks for the clarifications - I'm glad to see we share many views.

Cheers,
Shafique

As far as the Book and Wisdom, Shafi implied that wisdom means the Sunnah. Actually the obey God and obey the messenger verses are a stronger argument for the Sunnah if you ask me. First of all implied arguments are not final. The Quran says its a Book that makes thing clear. Implied argument are an indirect argument.

Second the Quran uses a singular verb for the Book and Wisdom and not plural. This may not mean anything but it renders Shafi's argument as not complete. Finally it also says we should recited the Book and Wisdom in our homes. Its hard to see how hadiths should be recited at homes. Quran never told us about reciting other than Quran.

Anyways as I said that hadiths do not necessarilly mean it should be rejected but it simply means that we can never know for sure which hadiths are authentic and that the process that Sunnis or Shias claim was implimented is not fool proof by a long shot and in the end we should not accept what contradicts the Quran and we should respect the decision of those who do not wish to accept the hadiths.

I myself look at the previous scriptures even though I know many Quranist do not. Somebody else might want to look at hadiths instead, thats cool with me. Its all extra information adn each must chose what he believes is the right thing and God will then judge him based on what his intentions are. Blind and unconditional obedience to all hadiths and abrogating the Quran in the process and then shoving that on people's throat even by force if it has to be is not faith but sectarianism and the Quran forbade sectarianism.

Quran is peace

My logic was quite straightforward - 2.129 says that the Prophet to be raised amongst the descendants of Ishmael was to +teach+ the book (this is what Abraham prays for).

This is in addition to bringing the book.

I agree that God's instructions to obey Muhammad, pbuh, is a more direct argument in favour of following what the Prophet, pbuh, practiced and taught.

So,for me, the Quran is paramount, then followed by Sunnah then followed by Hadith. The Quran cannot be contradicted by the latter two - and we know there are problems with Hadith and some reports of sunnah (the compilers of Hadith are clear that there are issues with many Hadith).

I too recommend reading other scriptures - and do make a point of reading literature and scripture provided by the adherents of other faiths, rather than reading just what opponents of their faith write about them (eg I've read Kitab-e-Aqdas, the Bayan and a few other publications of the Bahais before reaching my opinion of their faith - I read literature from the Mormons, including reading some of the Book of Mormon itself - I didn't read it all - and carried out discussions with LDS members, etc)

Cheers,
Shafique

this is a dubai forum, if quransits are in dubai, please contact me, i have a lot questions, we need to sit together. jacqueline1977@hotmail.de