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Interesting topic in the other thread about a possible circumcision ban in San Francisco - thanks for bringing this up FD, and thanks to eh for pointing out that there are some Jews who are against circumcision.

I wasn't aware of this group - so I have learnt something. Thanks.

Looking into this a bit more, I found some excellent resources. It does seem to appear that Jews against circumcision are a fringe minority group though.

Let's start with what the Bible says about circumcision and what Jews use to justify believing that male circumcision is a religious obligation:

Circumcision is commanded in Genesis 17:10-14 as an outward sign of a man's participation in Israel's covenant with God, as well as a sign that the Jewish people will perpetuate through him. The commandment is incumbent upon both father and child - fathers must see that their sons are circumcised, and uncircumcised grown men are obligated to perform the rite.

Those who are not circumcised suffer the penalty of kareit, no matter how otherwise observant they may be. Perhaps in part for this reason, circumcision is the mitzvah most likely to be observed by otherwise non-observant Jews.

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/cy ... cision.htm

The Bible is pretty clear about this:

Genesis

10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Hence why I stated that it is a religious obligation for males to be circumcised. There didn't seem to be any wriggle room here - males of 8 days old to be circumcised on the order of God.

But, eh is right - there are some Jews who do not agree with this Biblical commandment.

http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/

Like the American cultural practice of circumcision, Jewish circumcision (bris or brit milah) is dependent on the acceptance of cultural myths. Of all the myths that Jews believe about circumcision, the one that is paramount is the belief that all Jews circumcise. With this belief, we put ourselves under tremendous pressure to conform.

Cultural myths?

That got me interested in what these myths were.

Do not be afraid of divine punishment. God did not mandate circumcision. In the original version of the Torah, the book of J, circumcision is not even mentioned. Fallible men devised circumcision as a way to curb masturbation. Even Rabbi Maimonides acknowledged this fact.

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/


So, the Jews who believe Genesis 17:10-14 contain God's commandments have been fooled by men who invented circumcision.

Now, that's a fascinating belief. But I'm at a loss how one can argue that circumcision is not a religious obligation for those who believe the Bible is true (i.e. almost all observant Jews) - and even more fascinated that the alternative belief of the 'true judaism' involves rejecting what the Bible actually commands (circumcision of 8 day old boys).

I presume that the Christian adherents of this belief do realise that they believe that they are saying that the Son of God and all Jewish prophets after Abraham were un-necessarily mutilated when they were circumcised?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf,
Given that the bible is NOT the word of god, we have some room for wriggling in this case.
Like most religious text, it is influenced by the culture at the time.
Modern medicine views it as simply unnecessary, not evil in any way.
But I am sure that you can quote many unbiased mulsim doctors who will disagree and produce statistics to prove otherwise.
I didn't know that it was intended to curb masturbation. Yes we learn something new every day And when I see men buying vasoline, I now know that they must be circumcised

I agree - there is wriggle room if one takes the view that the Bible isn't the word of God, but I would have argued that this is a given when discussing what Judaism teaches..

(Indeed, it increasingly appears that the Muslim view that some parts of the Bible are indeed fabrications and should be ignored is shared by many experts and believing Jews and Christians - we just differ over which particular bits of the Bible are considered fabrications and should be ignored... but that's for a different thread!)

As for Vasoline (or KY Jelly) reference, the mind boggles - isn't that more a reflection on the 'wife' rather than the man? But again - the advantages/disadvantages of circumcission is not something really relevant to this thread - this is about what Judaism teaches on the subject and whether Genesis 17:10 is a forgery or not.

Do you at least agree with me that Genesis 17:10-14 is categoric about circumcision of new born boys being a commandment from God that needs to be followed by Jews. I guess you're agreeing with those who say this is a fabrication.

I'm just not sure many Jews would agree with this view. (I'm reminded of mountains and molehills)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Do you at least agree with me that Genesis 17:10-14 is categoric about circumcision of new born boys being a commandment from God that needs to be followed by Jews. I guess you're agreeing with those who say this is a fabrication.

If as a Jew you need to follow the bible literally, then yes. Many Christians don't take the bible literally and it has become a medical argument instead.
Sorry for talking about the benefits, but it reminds me of AndyMcNab's book.
When he was being interogated by the iraqi's they were accusing him of being a Jew and giving him a hell of a beating. So he showed them that he was uncircumcised which they thought was very funny.

No probs - I think the debate over benefits of circumcision is an interesting one, but is distinct from whether it is a religious obligation or not (in Judaism or Islam).

There are parallels with the issue of pork - there are Muslims (and indeed some jews) who will eat pork and argue that whilst scripture bans the flesh of swine 'that was then and this is now.. and today pigs are reared hygienically etc'.

For me, circumcision and whether to eat pork or not comes down to what God commanded us to do (as Muslims) - I view the reasons and benefits to be strong arguments in favour of this scriptural requirement, and indeed I'm encouraged that a good argument can be made for the benefits out-weighing the disadvantages... but them there are the rules of Islam and Judaism - no pork and a bit off the ol porker..

Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't read the OP or any of the posts in this thread, but I didn't say that Rabbi Shmuley was against circumcision.

Instead, I simply said that Rabbi Shmuley believed that circumcision, at least performed on babies, was not a requirement in Judaism.

I think it's up to Jews to decide what is required by Judaism. Jews seem to spend more time listening to their rabbi's than trying to interpret the Hewbrew Bible. It's just as well that they do, there's lots of things in the Hebrew Bible that seem disturbing to modern folk with our peaceful secure lives. We have international law now, abolition of slavery and kings don't have 1000 wives and concubines any more.

And yet the the death penalty was effectively abolished in Judaism two thousand years ago, well before int law, modern sensibilities and the teachings of Islam were revealed to take mankind back a few centuries and keep 1.4 billion humans in various states of backwardness to this day.

Genesis 17

10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Either this is a forgery, or it is part of Judaism.

Can't see any other alternative.

Cheers,
Shafique

Either this is a forgery, or it is part of Judaism.

Can't see any other alternative.

Ok, O Wise One, I'll inform Rabbi Shmuley of your opinion.

Perhaps in the meantime you can explain why we should ignore the clear passages in the Koran stating hell's eternity for non-believers in favor of some weak hadith?

Let us know what the Rabbi says.

What is your opinion - did God say that 8 day old boys should be circumcised in Genesis 17:12 or is this a forgery?

Cheers,
Shafique