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event horizon · Dec 02, 2009

I didn't see an answer to my previous question....

Can you please provide a link that says the LRA killed 2 million people? The wikipedia article puts the death toll around 12.000.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

event horizon wrote:I didn't see an answer to my previous question....
Can you please provide a link that says the LRA killed 2 million people? The wikipedia article puts the death toll around 12.000.

Funny, so you didn't read my reply when I cleared this point up. (Here's a clue, it was the message I posted after you posed the question)

So, can we establish whether you have indeed given birth to another quaint belief (this would be number 8 or 9, I'm losing count) - are you the only person in the world who considers the LRA to be a Christian Terrorist Organisation?

Seems strange to argue that a group whose leader claims to be inspired by numerous spirits who give him guidance is characterised as a Christian Group by you.

So, are you the only person in the world who thinks these guys are Christian Fundamentalists?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 03, 2009

Please refer to the wikipedia article on Christian terrorism - the one you read when you came across the terror acts of that secular Indian terror group.

In it, you'll find that the LRA is also listed there as well.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

agreed - LRA are Christian terrorists.

The lists of their victims (killed, mutilated, displaced etc) should appear in this thread and not in the 'Converts' thread.

I did not equate their theology with Christianity, but you have persuaded me otherwise.

As wiki says:

Uganda
The Lord's Resistance Army, a sectarian guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves.[33] It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[34][34][35][36] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.[37][38][39][40][41][42]

I can see the argument clearly now - they believe that the Christian Holy Spirit takes many forms and that Kony is the spokesperson for God and this Holy Spirit (I suppose, it is a small logical leap to believe God is three to God is many more than three) - and they recite the Bible before going into battle.

This is similar to the recent innovation with the Israeli IDF who also now recite the Bible before going into Battle with Rabbis at their side - although the IDF don't commit as many atrocities as these guys do. But this thread is not about 'Jewish Terrorists'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

Extremist Anti abortion groups can be classed as chrisitan terrorists - but the deaths etc attributed to them are not very high, and its a single issue.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

Agreed - in fact the first posts included these groups.

A longer list of Christian terrorist organisations was referred to by eh above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 06, 2009

Have a death count that we can compare yet?

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

If you go to the other thread about convert terrorists, you will see I had already started by counting the deaths in two LRA incidents, so my count isn't complete yet.

However this thread isn't about death counts - you are confusing it with the thread in the politics section where you are having trouble counting beyond the 6 (or is it 7?) Muslim convert terrorists. That thread was started to test your believe that Islam created the most convert terrorists - unfortunately the stats don't stack up.

I was under the impression that the LRA were not Christian Terrorists, but you insisted that they were and convinced me otherwise. You chose therefore to bring the LRA into this thread which lists Christian terrorist organisations.

When you finish with your counts in the other thread, only then should we start counting for other issues (as you appear to be easily distracted).

We can quite easily take Wiki's list of Christian terrorist organisations and add up the total killings from all of them, and then you can do the same for your lists above. But let's finish your 'convert terrorists' counts first.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 07, 2009

you claimed the LRA carried out genocide in this thread. I have repeatedly asked you for a death count so we can compare the number of people killed by the LRA to people killed by Islamist fighters in Algeria and Iraq.

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

Yep - I agree, the LRA are indeed monsters and I called them genocidal. I chose to believe they weren't Christians, but you insist that they are indeed Christian terrorists (and hence they are now part of this thread).

As I said, once we've sorted your first thread on counting terrorists and those killed by them, we can come here and count the victims of all the Christian Terrorists (no need to single out the LRA).

Tell me though, what is your view of the Christian LRA group - are they genocidal, or just mass murderers?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

shafique wrote:As I said, once we've sorted your first thread on counting terrorists and those killed by them, we can come here and count the victims of all the Christian Terrorists (no need to single out the LRA).

Tell me though, what is your view of the Christian LRA group - are they genocidal, or just mass murderers?

Was the question difficult?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 16, 2009

event horizon wrote:How exactly am I supposed to answer your question if the LRA are genocidal if you can't even answer my question over how many people the group has actually killed? lol..

So you want me to do your homework (again!)

You are the one that claimed these guys are Christian Terrorists - and yet you can't make up your mind whether they are genocidal or just mass murderers.

I suspect that if they were Islamic terrorists you wouldn't hesitate to label them.

Anyway - as far as I'm concerned, they are indeed monsters and I'm still surprised that you have claimed them for Christianity.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 17, 2009

So you want me to do your homework (again!)

Well, actually you are the one who is making the claim that the LRA are 'genocidal'. I think I was the one who asked how they were genocidal and I offered you to compare the number of people the LRA killed to the number of people Islamist terrorists in Iraq and Algeria have murdered - over a much shorter time span, no less.

It would seem that you are now shifting the goal posts and asking me to look up the casualties the LRA have caused. I've already done that when I quoted wikipedia saying that 12,000 people have died since the conflict began 20? years ago.

To my mind, that isn't exactly a genocide, but hey, if you call that a genocide, then were the early Muslims also genocidal?

shafique · Dec 17, 2009

Hey, you are the one who claims the LRA for Christendom - I don't recognise Christianity in their barbaric practices or in their cultish beliefs.

So you do believe they are Christians, but can't make up your mind whether they are genocidal or just mass murderers. I've clearly stated that I do believe they are genocidal terrorists - I was asking what your views are now that you've looked them up on Wikipedia.

So, are they genocidal or just mass murderers (in your view)?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 17, 2009

Ok, given that you've claimed the LRA for Christendom, here's what the Christian Research Journal reported about the LRA.

Note two things:
1. the un-christian like beliefs
2. the numbers reported killed - over 100,000.

Terrorizing the Innocents in Uganda
Religion Plays a Deadly Role in the Lord's Resistance Army
JAL110
Steve Rabey

This article first appeared in the News Watch column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 28, number 2 (2005). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

Thousands of his devoted supporters see Joseph Kony, rebel leader of Uganda’s Lord’s Resistance Army, as a prophet of God who is working to fight government injustice and preparing to usher in a golden age of peace under the rule of the Ten Commandments. Millions of other people in the African continent, as well as growing numbers of international aid workers, see Kony as a terrorist, a madman, or the Devil incarnate, who combines Christian apocalyptism with elements of animism, witchcraft, and voodoo to create a deadly blend of radicalism, violence, death, and destruction. No matter what one thinks about Kony, it is clear that during the past 18 years he has been leading a brutal rebellion against the Ugandan government.

The seeds of the present conflict in Uganda were planted in 1986 when the nation’s current leader, Yoweri Museveni, took power by force. Those who had battled Museveni fled, many fearing they would be sought out and punished. In time, many of these rebels rallied around a spiritualist named Alice Lakewenya who founded the 7,000-member Holy Spirit Battalion.

Battalion members were told that God would protect them even though they fought armed only with sticks, stones, and voodoo dolls. They were also told that Lakewenya‘s “Holy Oil” would render the government soldiers’ bullets harmless.

The Battalion marched on the capital of Kampala but was soundly defeated in 1987. Out of the ashes of this failure arose a new rebel group, the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), led by Lakewenya’s nephew, Joseph Kony.

An estimated 25,000 children have been forcibly enlisted in Kony’s army as soldiers, porters, and sex slaves and forced to commit acts of horrifying brutality. More than 100,000 people have been killed, the vast majority of them civilians; and more than 1.5 million Ugandans have been displaced from their homes, leading both the United Nations and Doctors without Borders to declare the conflict in Uganda the world’s most neglected humanitarian crisis.
...

http://www.equip.org/articles/terrorizi ... -in-uganda

So, do you really consider these guys as Christian terrorists?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 17, 2009

I'll see your one hundred thousand killed over a twenty year period and raise you 150,000 to 200,000 civilians killed by Islamic terrorists in Algeria over a much shorter period (most of the killings were inflicted during the first five or so years, I believe):

It is estimated to have cost between 150,000 and 200,000 lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War

voodoo dolls? :bounce:

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

Hey, this is a thread about Christian terrorists.

I quoted from the Christian Research Journal about the LRA terrorists you have claimed for Christendom and asked what your opinion of them was as a result - are they genocidal or just mass murders?

I wasn't aware that Christian terrorists were involved in Algeria - do you want to claim some more murders in the name of Christ? (A bit bizare).

I've no hesitation in condemning the Algerian terrorists as the mass murderers/genocidal maniacs they were - but I don't claim them for Islam either.

Incidentally, the BBC showed a 6 part documentary recently on 'A History of Christianity'. In the last episode it featured the 'German Christians' of Nazi Germany - and showed on of their churches 'The Martin Luther Memorial Church' in a Berlin suburb. They called themselves the 'stormtroopers of Jesus Christ' - and in the church there were swasticas (now chiseled out and painted over) - but there still remains sculptures of Nazi soldiers being led by Jesus.

I didn't realise that Hitler also tried to unify the churches under one 'national church' which followed Nazi principles.

The Catholic church also didn't cover itself with glory - making deals with fascist Mussolini in Italy and also Franco in Spain.

It appears there's no need to go back to the Middle Ages to reach mass terrorism done in the name of Christ!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

You would certainly be surprised by what you learn.

Hitler and the top nazis weren't exactly fans of Christianity. I also remember reading a BBC article on the Nazi attempt to erase any Christian connections to Christmas and replace this with paganism.

I suppose the anti-totalitarian and anti-authoritarian message of the Gospels did not exactly suit the ideological beliefs of the Nazis too well. On the other hand, Hitler correctly viewed the martial spirit of Islam as totally compatible with Nazi beliefs and doctrines.

Perhaps that is why Muslim SS were so highly regarded among fellow Nazis and feared for their brutality. Indeed, they must have occasionally forgotten that they were soldiers for the Third Reich and believed they were in the army of the Caliph when they would occasionally kill their non-Muslim comrades in blood frenzies or what have you.

I'm sure their zeal for warfare more than made up for this and the Nazi high command were happy to overlook a few minor indiscretions and award their loyal Muslim soldiers and officers with Korans that had a swastika right on the cover. No doubt, the ramblings of Allah would have stirred the soldiers to fight the 'enemy' much better than the ramblings of Adolf Hitler.

It's just too bad for Germany that they didn't issue swastika inscribed Korans to their non-Muslims soldiers as well. The sacrifice for the fatherland and condemnations of 'hypocrites' for their unwillingness to go into battle must have perfectly encapsulated the militaristic beliefs of the Third Reich. Perhaps with soldiers as fanatical as today's Muslim suicide bombers, the Third Reich could have overcome the odds against them.

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

It looks like you need to do your homework eh.

Lutheran Nazism

In 1932 the Protestant church came under the influence of the Nazi movement called "German Christians" (Bewegung Deutscher Christen, also called "Stormtroopers of Jesus") and lead by the founder, Rev. Joachim Hossenfelder. This movement represented Hitler's "Positive Christianity" views and lawfully encoded into the Nazi "constitution." Hitler tried to force regional Protestant churches to merge into the Protestant Reich Church. Protestant churches throughout Germany participated in the movement but Hitler's union of the churches failed because of in-church bickering. Only one visibly apparent church remains in Germany that shows distinctive markings of Positive Christianity, a reminder of how Christianity and Nazism mixed together during the Nazi regime.
...

http://sites.google.com/site/apostolica ... utheranism

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 19, 2009

So, I take you now agree that Hitler did have close links with Christianity and attempted to unify the protestant churches under his brand of Christianity?

This picture from the pulpit of Jesus with a Nazi soldier makes the point quite well:

shafique · Dec 21, 2009

So, whilst we wait for eh to make up his mind whether the LRA are genocidal or just mass murderers (given the accounts of around 100,000 killed) - and also whether he's got an answer to the above points about Hitler's use of Christianity - here's another photo from the church

This is of Adolf himself, holding a stormtrooper's hat. It comes from the font where babies are baptised.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 22, 2009

To be honest, I'm not following your above post. Perhaps you forgot to ask a 'coworker' or family member to read posts to you out loud again?

I said Hitler and the high ranking Nazis were either agnostic, apatheistic or simply pagans/occultists (there may have been a few practicing Christians there as well). Hitler's use of Christianity does not support your odd belief any more than someone would claim that Hitler was a Muslim because the Nazis issued Korans with the swastika on the cover to Muslim SS officers or that Hitler met with the Mufti of Palestine - and was quite impressed by his blue eyes.

shafique · Dec 22, 2009

I understand that sometimes it is difficult for you to understand a point that is being made - and thanks for the advice about getting someone to explain things to you.

The point is that this particular Church was constructed and used by 'German Christians' who reconciled Nazi ideology with Christianity - to the point where there were Swasticas on the walls and ceilings and StormTroopers following Jesus. They called themselves the stormtroopers of Christ.

This movement represented Hitler's "Positive Christianity" views and lawfully encoded into the Nazi "constitution." Hitler tried to force regional Protestant churches to merge into the Protestant Reich Church. Protestant churches throughout Germany participated in the movement...

Given that you have claimed the LRA for Christendom, then surely these guys are clearly Christian too.

Hitler did try and unify the protestant churches into one national church - (which is interesting, given he was raised catholic).

Now, what is fascinating is that these German Christians would put Hitler on the baptismal font - do you think they would do that if they believed Hitler was an atheist/agnostic? Perhaps they were wrong - I mean, they were wrong to deny that Christianity had Jewish roots.

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

Oh dear, I see someone has read a few paragraphs from wikipedia and fancies himself an expert. Perhaps you'll read the article in full and then comment????

The point is that this particular Church was constructed and used by 'German Christians' who reconciled Nazi ideology with Christianity

Fascinating, but I thought the point was Hitler's religious beliefs and the religious beliefs of many in the Nazi party, which was really a motley crew of many different religious beliefs - with occultism being favored by many of the highest ranking officers.

I mean, it's not like the Mufti of Jerusalem didn't 'hit' it off very well with Hitler or anything like that - and forget about the Muslim officers in the SS, who were awarded Korans with swastikas on the cover.

Hitler did try and unify the protestant churches into one national church - (which is interesting, given he was raised catholic).

News flash - over half of the German population at the time was Protestant. What religion did you expect Hitler and the Nazis to unify - the cargo cults of Micronesia?

Now, what is fascinating is that these German Christians would put Hitler on the baptismal font

Yes, it's also fascinating that the Christian Nazis attempted to erase the Christian element of Christmas and replace it with paganism.

The Nazis attempted to persuade housewives to bake cookies in the shape of swastikas, and they replaced the Christian figure of Saint Nicholas, who traditionally brings German children treats on December 6, with the Norse god Odin.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... z0aSLjpJUK

shafique · Dec 23, 2009

shafique wrote:I understand that sometimes it is difficult for you to understand a point that is being made - and thanks for the advice about getting someone to explain things to you.

The point is that this particular Church was constructed and used by 'German Christians' who reconciled Nazi ideology with Christianity - to the point where there were Swasticas on the walls and ceilings and StormTroopers following Jesus. They called themselves the stormtroopers of Christ.

Do you concede that these German Christians were 'Christians' and that those that took part in attacks against civilians are therefore 'Christian Terrorists'?

You stated that Hitler did not have Christian beliefs - I understand this argument. The point is that despite these views, Hitler did indeed write into the Nazi constitution the points made below about a Reich Church.

Is this a historical innaccuracy?

This movement represented Hitler's "Positive Christianity" views and lawfully encoded into the Nazi "constitution." Hitler tried to force regional Protestant churches to merge into the Protestant Reich Church. Protestant churches throughout Germany participated in the movement...

Given that you have claimed the LRA for Christendom, then surely these guys are clearly Christian too.

Hitler did try and unify the protestant churches into one national church - (which is interesting, given he was raised catholic).
[/quote]

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 25, 2009

Ah, many thanks for reminding us of the unanswered questions in this thread - notably, whether the LRA (claimed for Christendom by yourself eh) are 'genocidal' or just 'mass murderers' given the reports they killed 100,000.

Now, to the 'German Christians' of the Third Reich:

shafique wrote:Do you concede that these German Christians were 'Christians' and that those that took part in attacks against civilians are therefore 'Christian Terrorists'?

You stated that Hitler did not have Christian beliefs - I understand this argument. The point is that despite these views, Hitler did indeed write into the Nazi constitution the points made below about a Reich Church.

Is this a historical innaccuracy?

This movement represented Hitler's "Positive Christianity" views and lawfully encoded into the Nazi "constitution." Hitler tried to force regional Protestant churches to merge into the Protestant Reich Church. Protestant churches throughout Germany participated in the movement...

Given that you have claimed the LRA for Christendom, then surely these guys are clearly Christian too.

Hitler did try and unify the protestant churches into one national church - (which is interesting, given he was raised catholic).

shafique · Dec 27, 2009

Here's a photo of Hitler with the 'Bishop of the Reich' and Abbot Schachleitner

and here is one with a Nazi Christian chaplain with a machine gun:

And a lot more photos here:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

So, whilst the Furher did meet with many people - from Chamberlain to the Pope's representatives (and yes a Palestinian Imam), the Nazis did not incorporate these guys' beliefs into their constitution - but did incorporate Christianity in the form of their brand of protestantism. I'm not aware of any Muslim Imam or Catholic Priest, for example, serving in the Nazi army as shown above.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 27, 2009

but did incorporate Christianity in the form of their brand of protestantism.

Thank you for your pearls of wisdom. The Nazis incorporated Christianity into their 'brand' of protestantism. Who knew? Personally, I thought the Nazis might incorporate Buddhism into their brand of Protestantism, but it looks like they didn't. Imagine that.

I'm not aware of any Muslim Imam or Catholic Priest, for example, serving in the Nazi army as shown above.

Halim Malkoć (1917 - 7 March 1947) was a Bosnian Muslim Imam and SS Obersturmführer in the Waffen-SS division Handschar, best known for his involvement in the suppression of the Villefranche-de-Rouergue mutiny of 1943 and also believed to be the only Muslim awarded the German Iron Cross during World War Two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halim_Malko%C4%87

I agree with you, you sho aren't aware of things. Not only was he, along with other imams, serving in the front lines, but he was awarded the Iron Cross. Pretty impressive.

Now to find those Korans with the swastika on them.

shafique · Dec 27, 2009

Thanks - I thought you might dig up a Muslim Imam who was part of the Nazi regime - well done.

Now, watch carefully - these Muslim Nazis are indeed Muslim terrorists (I'm assuming they did kill civilians).

Now - the question for you is whether you agree that the German Christian Nazi soldiers are Christian terrorists?

Seems pretty clear that they are.

Now, you only need to find where Islam was incorporated into the Nazi constitution. You'll get extra brownie points if you do.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 27, 2009

Now - the question for you is whether you agree that the German Christian Nazi soldiers are Christian terrorists?

Perhaps you meant the SS, such as the Imam who was awarded the Iron Cross for his duty towards the Third Reich, and not the Werhmacht, which was, for all intents and purposes, the same as the German army in WWI?

But no, I don't consider him a terrorist - that is a horrible abuse of the word by modern day revisionists.

The UN defines terrorism/terrorists as "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act".

The Muslim SS members, like Muhammad and the rightly guided caliphs who massacred, enslaved, pillaged and terrorized civilians (along with captured soldiers), were *war criminals*, not terrorists.

It's the same as conflating the words murder and kill, a common tactic of posters like you who are more concerned with running interference than with writing factual posts.

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