Biblical War Crimes

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Hey, I agree with you. Allah is harsher in the Koran than God is in the verse you quoted.

All disbelievers are to be put to the sword by Allah's intermediaries - just as the Koran instructs Muslims to do in verse 9:5 of the Koran.

So, no. I don't join you in condoning the wholesale slaughter of innocent, peace-loving disbelievers as recorded in the Koran.

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
All disbelievers are to be put to the sword by Allah's intermediaries - just as the Koran instructs Muslims to do in verse 9:5 of the Koran.


Why do you keep misquoting the verses. Is that becouse you believe there is God and that you believe in God?

Disbelievers are Allah's property as well. They are given free will to choose to become a beliver or not, that's as long as they don't fight against belivers of Allah and his messangers and that they keep truce and not violate the rights of believers when God reestablishes his religion amongst people. It's as simple as that..
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 11, 2010
shafique wrote:Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 11, 2010
Eh, care to deal with the following.. Is this the logic behind the recent slavery in America and by the Colonical powers of Europe in Africa etc.

so pls, Care to posses some intelligence to reason...By the way I reject them to be the revelation of Prophet Moses or prophet Jesus.Had they were given chance to establish proper religion like prophet mohammad we wouldn't have faced a lot of dilemma coming from Juodo-Christian world(tridition)...How would you compare islam's prohibition of killing infants,children, women, animals, trees and all other substances around in case of a war against adult male violaters- to the biblical version?
Remember the thread.
philosophy-dubai/comparative-religious-teachings-war-and-peace-t38766.html

Biblegod The Good And Slavery
GR Gaudreau

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YHWH, god of the Bible, we are incessantly told by Christians, is good and his mercy "endureth for ever". However, as we have seen in earlier installments of "Biblegod The Good", this isn't exactly the case. In this short essay, I'd like us to look at the question of slavery.

We all know that slavery is to be condemned as being inhumane, even Christians admit that. No human being should be owned by another for whatever reason. From the construction worker to the Phd., slavery is recognized for what it is: an abhorrent practice. However, the Bible, which is touted as "the" standard of morality by Christians, declares that slavery is not only acceptable, it is even commanded by the biblegod. Don't believe me? Read on. I will not quote the whole text here, because you can read it for yourselves. I quote from Young's Literal Translation:

Numbers 31:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
2 `Execute the vengeance of the sons of Israel against the Midianites -- afterwards thou art gathered unto thy people.'
[...]
9 And the sons of Israel take captive the women of Midian, and their infants; and all their cattle, and all their substance, and all their wealth they have plundered;
[...]
17 `And now, slay ye every male among the infants, yea, every woman known of man by the lying of a male ye have slain;
18 and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves.

To begin with, notice in v.9 that the Israelites are not simply told that they can take "captives" from among the Midianites, but are commanded to take "captives" from among them. They are to slaughter all the men, the male infants and all the women who had who had "known a man." Needless to say, we are impressed with the goodness of the biblegod ordering, as he did, the slaughter of all the male infants and the women who weren't virgins. Truly, biblegod's goodness knows no bounds!


The term "captives" in this context is the biblical code word for "slaves", and not simply someone who was captured. The Israelites were to take captive and enslave all the women who were virgins, icluding the female infants, and keep them as slaves. Anyone disputing this should take a course in basic reading. The meaning is quite clear.

In a time when we are painfully aware of slavery and its consequences, the Israelites didn't know--nor did they care--about the problems slavery causes to those enslaved and later to those who ensalve others. Now, since the Bible is held up as "the" standard of morality, one would expect that it would condemn rather than encourage slavery. Such, unfortunately, is not the case. One would also expect that a god who is supposed to be the epitome of goodness and mercy, would inform the Israelites as to the evils of slavery. Such is, not surprizingly, not the case.

Not a word is said in condemnation of slavery, not even a hint. In fact, as we can see from this passage YHWH, in his infinite goodness, commands the Israelites to take "captives", You see, if Israelites are to be considered slaves because they are taken into captivity by Babylonians, then it is only reasonable to think that the Midianites were slaves of the Israelite when they were taken captive.

Fundamentalists will often argue, in defense of the Bible, that God was merciful in giving laws to Israel concerning slavery. They point to the fact that a slave had to be released after seven years, and so on. Unfortunately, this only serves to confirm our contention that slavery was acceptable and a common practice in the OT, even though we know today that slavery is unacceptable. Moreover, noly the Isrealite slave was to be released after seven years, not the outsider. He belonged to his owner for as long as he lived and was given as an inheritence to his sons when he passed on.

Slavery in the NT
Some Christian will claim that the NT doesn't encourage slavery and that the teachings of Jesus even preclude the ownership of slaves. Well, I guess they'd have to tell that to Onesimus, the slave who belonged to Philemon. Paul, who is said to be the author of the epistle to Philemon, tells him that he will return his slave (servant in the KJV) to him, but that he should remember that Onesimus is a bother and should be treated fairly. This is all fine and well, but Onesimus is still a slave! Paul doesn't tell Philemon that slavery is immoral and that he should give it up and free his slave, his brother in Christ! Guess the Holy Ghost must've been having an off day and forgot to tell Paul what every Christian knows.

Christian will be the first on the anti-slavery bandwagon, for moral reasons, but they don't even see that their own scriptures encourage and sometimes even command slavery. There isn't on single verse in the NT that condemns slavery, in fact, slaves are commanded to obey their masters. (Eph. 6:5) Peter even goes as far as saying that slaves should be thankful if they suffer at the hands of their masters, because this is glorious.

1Peter 2:18 Servants [Greek "doulos"=slaves], be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

So, taking it patiently from your masters when you endure grief and suffer wrongfully, is acceptable to YHWH. He finds that this is a virtue. Boy, he must've been pissed off at all those Blacks in the last century who decided they wouldn't take it patiently. Moreover, this same god doesn't even condemn slavery when it comes to his own "children", the Israelites and then Christians like Philemon.

The teachings of Jesus, or rather those attributed to him, had changed nothing for 1st century slaves. People could still owned them, even one of their brethren. In fact, Jesus "the greatest moral teacher who ever lived," doesn't have diddly squat to say about the plight of slaves. None of the leaders, such as Peter, James, John or Paul, ever condemned the practice of owning another person and so condoned slavery implicitly. One would think that the "superior morality" of early Christianity would have seen to it that its supposed originator, Jesus, would have taught men to stop this immoral practice. Where was "sweet Jesus" when slaves were being bought and sold?

Christians, who never cease telling us that Atheists have no basis for morality, will defend a book that tells us of a practice that, while it should be condemned, is encouraged and even commanded by its god. Funny isn't it, that Atheists, who have "no basis for morality", condemn slavery, but that a book which is touted as being "the" standard of morality, not only doesn't condemn slavery, but encourages it; even commands it in certain instances. Will biblical wonders never cease? Hopefully, someday they will for the sake of us all.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
to the biblical version?


Uhm, depends on which passage from Deuteronomy you quote - since some passages prohibit killing/pillaging/needless destruction.

In any event, the Koran allows for Muslims to destroy trees. So I reject any hadith from Abu Bakr saying that Muslims should not destroy trees - it's completely permissible according to the Koran.

The Koran also allows pillaging, which is also a war crime.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
It is interesting that you don't deny you are more extreme a religous fanatic than Al Qaeda - but appear to be trying to recruit other numpties to your ideology - why else go to such lengths to justify the slaughter in the first post?

Are you proud to support this war crime?


shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
I just find it difficult to accept that there is a real difference between Allah ordering his followers to slay innocent civilians and God ordering the Israelites to do it.

Is there a difference? Apart from condemning the ones who carried out the actions, it is clear that Allah would have also approved of Moses' actions if he ordered the same level of destruction for his followers to carry out against disbelievers.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
Yes, you are quite clear about why you are more extreme in your views than Al Qaeda, I asked whether you accepted this fact and whether you were proud of being more radical than they are?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Do you accept you are more radical than Al Qaeda and are you proud of this?

shafique wrote:Yes, you are quite clear about why you are more extreme in your views than Al Qaeda, I asked whether you accepted this fact and whether you were proud of being more radical than they are?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Uhm, depends on which passage from Deuteronomy you quote - since some passages prohibit killing/pillaging/needless destruction.

Ordering to kill "infants" is such a strong statment that not another single passage in bible can supersede this.
In any event, the Koran allows for Muslims to destroy trees.

Nice attempt to slander..
This is what I can find in quran...
"Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills. (The Noble Quran, 22:18)"
The Koran also allows pillaging, which is also a war crime.

Really?
Numbers 31:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
2 `Execute the vengeance of the sons of Israel against the Midianites -- afterwards thou art gathered unto thy people.'
[...]
9 And the sons of Israel take captive the women of Midian, and their infants; and all their cattle, and all their substance, and all their wealth they have plundered;

Do you think pillaging in bible is a war Crime Eh?
I just find it difficult to accept that there is a real difference between Allah ordering his followers to slay innocent civilians and God ordering the Israelites to do it.

Eh do you think there is difference between an infant male and an adult male? My logic says to me is that while infant male's innocence is absolute,adult male's innocence can be questionable...
What sort of God is Bible God that cannot distinguish the right from wrong?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Good points Berrin.

However, what is unquestionable is that eh is the only one here who is condoning the enslavement of virgins for the use of the ones who slaughtered their families. This is done today in the name of religion by the "Lords Resistance Army" in Uganda - and eh insists these guys are Christian terrorists!

So, eh is more extreme in his fanaticism than Al Qaeda (for I haven't seen anywhere where they say it is ok to enslave virgins).

I asked eh whether he was proud of this fact - but I guess he has some sense of shame.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Berrin, do yo agree or disagree that Allah gave specific commands to murder thousands of innocent women and children as recorded in the Koran?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Answer my question as per my statements..
You read the conditions under which God allowed his prophet to fight against truce brakers..
And noo God in Quran and the prophet of islam never ever allow fight against anything other than mischievous male adults.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
So your Koran does not have Allah ordering the destruction of cities and the annihilation of its inhabitants?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Interesting the diversionary tactics of asking what the Quran says on the subject! The Quran doesn't condone the crimes committed by the Israelites - does it eh?

shafique wrote:However, what is unquestionable is that eh is the only one here who is condoning the enslavement of virgins for the use of the ones who slaughtered their families. This is done today in the name of religion by the "Lords Resistance Army" in Uganda - and eh insists these guys are Christian terrorists!

So, eh is more extreme in his fanaticism than Al Qaeda (for I haven't seen anywhere where they say it is ok to enslave virgins).

I asked eh whether he was proud of this fact - but I guess he has some sense of shame.


Are you proud you are more extreme than Bin Laden?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
I have no idea. It certainly doesn't condemn them.

Then again, that would be hypocritical for Allah to condemn the God of the Hebrew Bible, now wouldn't it?

Or does your Koran, like Berrin's, not contain passages of Allah giving orders to smite the disbelievers (wholesale destruction of cities)?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 15, 2010
So you are saying that we are being hypocritical for not joining you and condoning the enslavement of virgins!!

Wow, you are indeed more extreme than Bin Laden.

You haven't told us whether you are proud of this fact though.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 15, 2010
Do you condemn the slaughter that is inflicted by Allah in the Koran?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 15, 2010
I said I don't condemn any acts of God - such as cancer, hurricanes, plagues etc - they are just that, acts of God.

I asked whether you are proud to be more extreme than Al Qaeda - they don't condone the enslavement of virgins as carried out by the Israelites in the Bible (but the LRA do and actually practice this - and you claim they are 'Christian Terrorists).

So, I condemn cold blooded massacres and enslavements of virgins - but you don't.

Are you proud to be more extreme than Bin Laden?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
You're not avoiding the question are you eh? Surely not. ;)

shafique wrote:
So, I condemn cold blooded massacres and enslavements of virgins - but you don't.

Are you proud to be more extreme than Bin Laden?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
shafique wrote:I said I don't condemn any acts of God - such as cancer, hurricanes, plagues etc - they are just that, acts of God.

I asked whether you are proud to be more extreme than Al Qaeda - they don't condone the enslavement of virgins as carried out by the Israelites in the Bible (but the LRA do and actually practice this - and you claim they are 'Christian Terrorists).

So, I condemn cold blooded massacres and enslavements of virgins - but you don't.

Are you proud to be more extreme than Bin Laden?

Cheers,
Shafique


Acts of God is a misleading statement. In modern use, it describes natural events or freak accidents that simply happen. The massacres described in the Koran are not 'acts of God', in which a natural disaster happens to befall a people, but deliberate acts by Allah or his intermediaries in which civilians are massacred.

That would be like claiming that an earthquake machine used to level a city is an act of God. It isn't. It blows my mind that you would describe intentional acts of destruction by Allah or massacres Allah orders to be some sort of random, unforeseen event.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
I understand you have a logic to equate the enslavement of virgins and their rape with natural disasters. I just happen to not share this view - and think it rather perverse a way to justify murder and rape by Israelites.

The question though was whether you acknowledge you are more extreme than Al Qaeda and are proud of this fact.

I suspect I'll be repeating the question a few times. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
Is using an earthquake machine to destroy a city a natural disaster?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
shafique wrote:I understand you have a logic to equate the enslavement of virgins and their rape with natural disasters. I just happen to not share this view - and think it rather perverse a way to justify murder and rape by Israelites.

The question though was whether you acknowledge you are more extreme than Al Qaeda and are proud of this fact.

I suspect I'll be repeating the question a few times. ;)



I guess I was right about repeating the question a few times. :)
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 17, 2010
event horizon wrote:Is using an earthquake machine to destroy a city a natural disaster?


Are you having trouble with the question?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 18, 2010
Yes, an earthquake is a natural disaster. (Duh?)


I'm also having absolutely no problem asking you the question you're studiously avoiding about war crimes you condone:

shafique wrote:I understand you have a logic to equate the enslavement of virgins and their rape with natural disasters. I just happen to not share this view - and think it rather perverse a way to justify murder and rape by Israelites.

The question though was whether you acknowledge you are more extreme than Al Qaeda and are proud of this fact.

I suspect I'll be repeating the question a few times.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 18, 2010
So, using an earthquake machine to cause an earthquake would be an act of God - even though it was intentionally set off and not a natural phenomenon ???
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 19, 2010
Bump:
When an earthquake machine is invented, then I'll be able to answer your hypothetical question.

Until then, all earthquakes, tornadoes, plagues, hurricanes, Tsunamis, cancers etc are natural disasters aka acts of God.

Virgins being enslaved and their families slaughtered will remain war crimes.

Only those more extreme than Al Qaeda will condone these crimes. Are you proud of this view?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 19, 2010
Again, the term act of God commonly used today does not really imply that God was the shot caller behind an earthquake or other natural disaster.

And yes, there have been precedents of man intentionally causing 'natural' disasters - from starting avalanches in WWI to blowing up dams to create floods.

Floods and avalanches are 'acts of God' so, does that mean we should not condemn those who start them?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 19, 2010
I've been pretty clear that I don't condemn acts of God. If someone causes harm to another person - then it isn't an act of God.

Israelites enslaving and raping virgins and slaughtering their families in cold blood is certainly not an act of God, but you seem to be arguing that we should consider it as one and therefore not condemn it.

On that, I can't join you.

I asked whether you were proud that you are more extreme a religious fanatic than Al Qaeda. We've established that I don't (and won't) share your views that the Israelites' actions can be condoned.

Are you ashamed of your views, or just ashamed to say whether you are proud to be a bigger fanatic than AQ?

Cheers,
Shafique
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