Bible - Nativity A Fabrication?

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Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 03, 2010
Ok, let's start again with the quote from 'God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins which details an instance of a NT story developing over time. He gives references to other books (Eg Richard Lane Fox on the Bible - btw, I recommend his book 'The Classical World' which I'm reading at the moment).

Anyway, this question was posed in the 'God Delusion' thread - but was not answered. So this thread will be reserved for 'eh's' comments on what is written. Ad Hominem attacks against Dawkins will be moved to the 'God Delusion' thread.



This relates to general authorship of the Bible and cites one historical inaccuracy relating to where Jesus was born - quoted in full so that you can digest the context and let us know whether you agree or disagree with Dawkins well laid out argument:

The fact that something is written down is persuasive to people not used to asking questions like: 'Who wrote it, and when?' 'How did they know what to write?' 'Did they, in their time, really mean what we, in our time, understand them to be saying?' 'Were they unbiased observers, or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?' Ever since the nineteenth century, scholarly theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are not reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world. All were written long after the death of Jesus, and also after the epistles of Paul, which mention almost none of the alleged facts of Jesus' life. All were then copied and recopied, through many different 'Chinese Whispers generations' (see Chapter 5) by fallible scribes who, in any case, had their own religious agenda.

A good example of the colouring by religious agendas is the whole heart-warming legend of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, followed by Herod's massacre of the innocents. When the gospels were written, many years after Jesus' death, nobody knew where he was born. But an Old Testament prophecy (Micah 5:2) had led Jews to expect that the long-awaited Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

In the light of this prophecy, John's gospel specifically remarks that his followers were surprised that he was not born in Bethlehem:
'Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'

Matthew and Luke handle the problem differently, by deciding that Jesus must have been born in Bethlehem after all. But they get him there by different routes. Matthew has Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem all along, moving to Nazareth only long after the birth of Jesus, on their return from Egypt where they fled from King Herod and the massacre of the innocents. Luke, by contrast, acknowledges that Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born. So how to get them to Bethlehem at the crucial moment, in order to fulfil the prophecy? Luke says that, in the time when Cyrenius (Quirinius) was governor of Syria, Caesar Augustus decreed a census for taxation purposes, and everybody had to go 'to his own city'. Joseph was 'of the house and lineage of David' and therefore he had to go to 'the city of David, which is called Bethlehem'. That must have seemed like a good solution. Except that historically it is complete nonsense, as A. N. Wilson in Jesus and Robin Lane Fox in The Unauthorized Version (among others) have pointed out. David, if he existed, lived nearly a thousand years before Mary and Joseph. Why on earth would the Romans have required Joseph to go to the city where a remote ancestor had lived a millennium earlier? It is as though I were required to specify, say, Ashby-de-la-Zouch as my home town on a census form, if it happened that I could trace my ancestry back to the Seigneur de Dakeyne, who came over with William the Conqueror and settled there.

Moreover, Luke screws up his dating by tactlessly mentioning events that historians are capable of independently checking. There was indeed a census under Governor Quirinius - a local census, not one decreed by Caesar Augustus for the Empire as a whole - but it happened too late: in AD 6, long after Herod's death. Lane Fox concludes that 'Luke's story is historically impossible and internally incoherent', but he sympathizes with Luke's plight and his desire to fulfil the prophecy of Micah.

[God Delusion pg 92-4]

shafique
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 03, 2010
event horizon
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 03, 2010
Precious. It was so funny, I'm torn between thinking you didn't post what was written because you too were busy laughing or perhaps you were just embarrassed! :mrgreen:

I mean - your foot must be really aching after you read this (you do realise you shot yourself in the foot):

But while much of this is factually correct, it is ultimately wrong. Take the absence of corroborating evidence for the Roman census, the visit of foreign Magi or the great star. The sceptics would have us think, if these things really did take place, there would be mention of them in other sources. But scholars of antiquity often note we probably have in our possession less than 1 per cent of the literary works that existed in the first century. Ninety-nine per cent of our evidence is lost.



So, Dawkins is 'factually correct' - but he is wrong because 'we' believe the Bible's account to be correct (well, Luke's account, in this case).

Well done 'eh'.

Your link makes the point twice:
It is true there is no corroborating evidence for the finer details of the Christmas story but it is wrong, and wrong-headed, to turn this into evidence that they are untrue. People are free not to trust what the Gospels report, but this is a choice based on a preference, not an argument arising from evidence.


Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!

Your weblink does not even address the substantive points made by Dawkins above which explain WHY the nativity story was made up long after the event. But hey, I guess you'd rather be asleep than defend the Bible. 'Yawn' indeed.

I look forward to the scientific proof of the sun stopping for a whole day in the sky. Will it also be 'we believe it to be the case, so it is'??
:albino:
shafique
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 05, 2010
Speaking of shooting yourself in the foot, have you found a single source from outside the Koran to show that Jews take Ezra as their son of God, like Christians take Jesus?

Going back to the topic at hand, I guess you didn't understand the author when he said that more than ninety-nine percent of literary sources are lost to us.

Historians and popular authors are drawing conclusions from only a sliver of the information we will ever have.

It's a similar tactic that creationists use when they cite the fossil record as 'proof' that humans are not descended from other animals.

Don't worry, I don't expect you to understand the finer points in life.
event horizon
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 05, 2010
Nothing in your last post is about the fabrication of the story of the Nativity.

Your link actually states that Dawkin's facts are correct:
It is true there is no corroborating evidence for the finer details of the Christmas story


But the author there chooses to believe the Bible despite there being no evidence.

No wonder you gave us the link.


All Mouth, No Trousers - exceptionally illustrated.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 05, 2010
Hey, there is no evidence that Jews take Ezra as their son of God, like Christians take Jesus.

So, why are you ragging on the author for pointing out the fact that the vast majority of ancient writing is lost to us?
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Re: Bible - Nativity a fabrication? Apr 05, 2010
LOL - All Mouth, No Trousers, indeed.

shafique wrote:Nothing in your last post is about the fabrication of the story of the Nativity.

Your link actually states that Dawkin's facts are correct:
It is true there is no corroborating evidence for the finer details of the Christmas story


Thanks for confirming that Dawkins is correctly stating facts and the evident fact that you have no answer to his explanations as to why the story was made up.

Cheers,
Shafique
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