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The Koran says not to be moved away from dispensing harsh 'justice'. Certainly most secularists/rationalists/humanists/non-Muslims would be abhorred at the thought that a human being should be publicly flogged for non-violent crimes.

We'll see how this is treated in fundamentalist circles. My guess is that the fundamentalist will nit-pick over legality rather than abolishment over the hadd punishment itself.

To directly criticize (and therefore seek real change within Islam) such backwards punishments, based on the majority views of the world's citizens, would be Islamophobic. Dontchya know?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/500-w ... ears-85380

Personally, I much rather get a 50 flog than get jailed in a dark damn, humiliating prisons...
The hurt will stop once the flogging is over, the pain will vanish as the healing takes place within a week or so.

Melika made the excellent observation that I had never thought of before - the Koran, nowhere, mentions prison/jail sentences for any punishment. All the punishments save two involved physical torture/mutilation. The two exceptions are banishment for Mohareb (those who create mischief) and home confinement for life for women who commit 'whoredom'.

Perhaps you forgot that the Koran does indeed legislate 'jailing' of women, but in their own homes or the home of their father?

Either way, it is interesting to see how irrelevant the punishments for certain behaviors in the Koran are for modern society - we don't punish people for most of what is punishable in the Koran and we certainly do not physically torture or mutilate people.

I can't think of any nation in the world that has sentenced a woman to permanent home confinement. Even that punishment is too awkward to follow and is ignored by Muslims.

Physical punishment VS Jail punishment..

Physical punishment:

Quick, effective and deterrent...
Immediate return to family, to continue daily duties/job..
less embarassement, agony, shame,rumours that unfold as part of very long jail sentences..
less suffering on the wife/husband,may prevent divorce as there would be not much waiting..
Children aren't psychologically punished by the departure/absence/care of a parent for a long time..
You don't loose your motivation, mental and physical health as part of living deprived in a tiny prison cell for a long time..
You don't loose your job qualifications and skills by being absent from job market for a long time..
After the crime if you sincerely repent it allows and gives you the chance to remix in the society without a further delay..
Tax payers money don't get wasted on feeding and supporting people who commit crime..
Tax payers money don't get wasted on constructing new prisons and their maintance..
Stops people commiting deliberate crimes so that they are homed and being taking care of in prison environment without any cost and burden on them..

and many others..I'll add on as I think of more..

Now it's your turn to defend jail punishment...

Isn't that depending on the Hadd punishment?

Someone who was crucified (and survived) or had their hand/foot chopped off would effectively be paralyzed for the rest of their life - so all of the benefits you mentioned favoring Islamic punishment would need reconsidering.

But the Koran in one verse does mention home confinement for women who are guilty of whoredom. Do you know of any Islamic state where this punishment is on the books, so to speak? Or has this verse been abrogated by the one that says to lash women?

Isn't that depending on the Hadd punishment?

You can study hadd punishment in depth as much as you like, our discussion is about modern vs classical on all fronts..

Someone who was crucified (and survived) or had their hand/foot chopped off would effectively be paralyzed for the rest of their life - so all of the benefits you mentioned favoring Islamic punishment would need reconsidering.

Absouletly not..Both private and govermental instituations employ certain percantage of disabled population by law..Medical mecanics also find technological solutions to replace amputated body parts...

So get back to my question to defend modern improsement instead.. I am looking forward to it...

For starters, what infractions prompt lashings in the Koran are not punished with imprisonment in most of the Western world.

Absouletly not..Both private and govermental instituations employ certain percantage of disabled population by law

I don't know about that. Someone who has lost a hand or a foot or is paralyzed under Islamic law is not going to be a productive member of society. Government mandates won't change the fact that that person will never function in the same way as he or she did prior to being amputated or crippled by the state.

Prior to social welfare, that person would have been a burden on their close family and friends who would have been forced to look after them. And not to mention the person becoming a social pariah for the rest of his or her life.

Could you imagine what that would do your psychological well being having to wake up every morning and look at yourself in the mirror? Not only would others look at you in the same way, they'd always be suspicious of you because they know you must have been a thief or highway robber in a past life.

For starters, what infractions prompt lashings in the Koran are not punished with imprisonment in most of the Western world.

How fasinating.must be the new trend in modern day justice...One wonders what those crimes are...

Someone who has lost a hand or a foot or is paralyzed under Islamic law is not going to be a productive member of society. Government mandates won't change the fact that that person will never function in the same way as he or she did prior to being amputated or crippled by the state.

We don't know about that a lot of people who are born disabled manage to occupy themselves by some kind of work...But that is exactly the reason why s/he shouldn't commit crime in the first place...Very deterrent indeed..

Prior to social welfare, that person would have been a burden on their close family and friends who would have been forced to look after them. And not to mention the person becoming a social pariah for the rest of his or her life.

Why the hell someone would want to commit a serious crime when everyone else tries to avoid? You know amputating hands and feet is the second severe crime after death punishment.. The objective is to deter people from causing harm and suffering in society....No crime- no punishment-thus no burden on family and public..

Could you imagine what that would do your psychological well being having to wake up every morning and look at yourself in the mirror?

Anyone who is so concerned about their looks should never attempt any kind of crime...That is exactly why physical punishment is so deterrent and cost and time effective in general..

Not only would others look at you in the same way, they'd always be suspicious of you because they know you must have been a thief or highway robber in a past life.

Theft and highway robbery are not classifed as righteous jobs..Anyone who thinks of performing them should be prepared for the outcome hence permenant suspicion in the society...Very deterrent punishment indeed..

Now just imagine if it wasn't for physical punishment how many a times you would return to the same prison, time after time commiting the same crime..

Now you must avoid shuffling..and start defending modern improsement...

I don't know how widespread it would be, but I have read one account of a woman being 'confined to houses until death takes her'. It's not independantly verified, but it seems plausable since it is perscribed by the Quran and some Saudis take a pride in preserving the way of life that existed at the time of the profit.

http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Story-Be ... 0967673747

Thanks Blueshift.

I did not know that. It would appear that not everybody believes the passage that says to home confine a woman for the rest of her life is an abrogated verse.

We'll see if Muslims interpret this passage as one that should still be followed and if that changes their previous assessments of whipping vs jail time.