18th Century Beliefs

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18th Century Beliefs Dec 14, 2009
eh has made the point that he doesn't agree with scholars who point out that 18th century European views of Islam are based on medieval prejudices.

eh doesn't dispute the factual basis of this George Bernard Shaw quote:
The medieval ecclesiastics, either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colours. They were in fact trained both to hate the man Muhammad and his religion.


Nor does he dispute the facts Shaw in a later part of the same statement:
But to proceed, it was in the 19th century that honest thinkers like Carlyle, Goethe and Gibbon perceived intrinsic worth in the religion of Muhammad, and thus there was some change for the better in the European attitude towards Islam. But the Europe of the present century is far advanced. It is beginning to be enamoured of the creed of Muhammad.
Interview, (April 1935), as quoted in The Genuine Islam, Vol. 1 (January 1936),



What eh disputes is that the medieval ecclesiasts were wrong - but rather argues (when he isn't cutting and pasting blindly) that their views on Islam are right.

This therefore led to the question about whether he also agrees with 18th century interpretations of Christianity as well.

I asked:

It must be quite galling that you have to refer back to pre-19th century interpretations of Islam to justify your views.

Which raised the interesting question - back then, there was no doubt that the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus - as this is explicit in the NT. And back then, it was a given that slavery was condoned by the Bible and that women shouldn't be given the right to vote (or divorce, or inheritance).

Do you also subscribe to these 18th century quaint beliefs too?

Please let me know if the questions are unclear and I'll clarify.

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Shafique

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 14, 2009
It's amazing all the people who are now becoming scholars on Christianity and Islam - despite any formal academic training.

First it was Karen Armstrong, a professor of literature, then it was an astro-physicist, next it was an Indian professor's (of philosophy) turn to become a scholar. Now, it seems that George Bernard Shaw, an advocate of eugenics (not sure if that is an 18th century belief or a late 19th/20th century belief) has suddenly emerged as the newest scholar of Islam on the block.

Could it be that shafique calls these people 'scholars' due to the fact that they write what shafique wants to read?

Nah, that couldn't be it.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 14, 2009
shafique wrote:Which raised the interesting question - back then, there was no doubt that the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus - as this is explicit in the NT. And back then, it was a given that slavery was condoned by the Bible and that women shouldn't be given the right to vote (or divorce, or inheritance).

Do you also subscribe to these 18th century quaint beliefs too?

Please let me know if the questions are unclear and I'll clarify.


So, perhaps I do need to clarify.

Ok, let me ask one question at a time then.

1. Do you believe that the Bible is accurate when it blames the Jews for causing the death of Jesus - this was the belief of the Church in the 18th Century, and is based on the NT verses which blame the Jews for killing Jesus.

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.


Now, in the 20th century the above was seen as 'anti-semitic' and the official line is that it was the Europeans (Roman/Italian) who killed Jesus and not the Jews. But in the 18th century, this was not the case - back then they took this Biblical account as gospel.

So, simple question eh, do you agree with the 18th Century version and say the Bible is correct to put the blame on the Jews? (Is the Bible accurate in saying the Jews took responsibility for the killing, and that Pilate is not to be blamed (after all, he washed his hands of the act)?)

(We'll come to the other questions after you've dealt with this)

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Shafique
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 15, 2009
It's amazing how you're obsessed over past beliefs. It would be nice if you moved on from beliefs of individuals (living in the past) to modern scholarship - such as the current view that the Koran was originally written in Syriac.

But hey, someone who believes that humans do not share an ancestral link to lower primates because allah told him so would kind of be living in the past.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 15, 2009
I'm continually fascinated that there are people like you who insist on living in the 18th century - yes, that is true.

I'm just asking whether this quaint view of religious history only applies to Islam, or whether you also believe in what was believed of the Bible in the 18th century.

The question was quite straightforward:

1. Do you believe that the Bible is accurate when it blames the Jews for causing the death of Jesus - this was the belief of the Church in the 18th Century, and is based on the NT verses which blame the Jews for killing Jesus.

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.


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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 15, 2009
Let me know if I need to simplify the question a bit further for you eh.

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 19, 2009
shafique wrote:Let me know if I need to simplify the question a bit further for you eh.


The offer still stands eh - but I think the question is quite clear - do you still believe the Bible is correct when it blames the Jews for killing Jesus?

(Note there are more questions after this one)

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 19, 2009
patiently waiting for an answer.
:alien:
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 20, 2009
What answer are you waiting for?
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 20, 2009
Whether you believe the Bible is correct to blame the Jews for killing Jesus, or whether you agree with God's verdict in the Quran that the Jews did not kill Jesus.

The former is the 18th century Christian view (and incidentally what Hitler was taught and believed).

So do you share Hitler's view or the Quranic view? Hitler or the Quran?

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 20, 2009
Of course I don't share Hitler's views that Jews are the worst of God's creatures - or anyone else for that matter, including people who marry their first cousins.

The New Testament says Jesus was crucified, which is a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one. However, unless Jesus was an insurrectionist, the Romans could have cared less of putting Jesus to death.

Since I am not aware of that being the case, although there is evidence of this from the New Testament, the people who would have wanted to see Jesus crucified, just as they later executed Stephen and James, would have been the Jews, or more accurately, the Sadducees, who were the keepers of the Temple.

I don't take historical fact - the crucifixion of Jesus - to be anti-Semitic.

It's also interesting that you make the choice as one between Hitler and the Koran. I can play that game too. Hitler was a Darwinist who believed that humans evolved from lower primates. So, the next time some enlightened Westerner destroys your 18th century belief that humans were created by God, you can also point this out and make the choice as one between Hitler and the Koran.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 21, 2009
event horizon wrote:Of course I don't share Hitler's views that Jews are the worst of God's creatures


Nope, that wasn't the question.

It was whether you shared Hitler's view (and other Christians, to be fair) that the Bible is correct when it blames the Jews for killing Jesus - OR whether you believed the new view that is accordance with the Quran,
that the Jews did not kill Jesus.

Ok, let us see.


event horizon wrote:The New Testament says Jesus was crucified, which is a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one. However, unless Jesus was an insurrectionist, the Romans could have cared less of putting Jesus to death.


Good, we are now quoting the NT - that is a good start.


event horizon wrote:Since I am not aware of that being the case, although there is evidence of this from the New Testament, the people who would have wanted to see Jesus crucified, just as they later executed Stephen and James, would have been the Jews, or more accurately, the Sadducees, who were the keepers of the Temple.


Ok, I follow this logic too.

event horizon wrote:I don't take historical fact - the crucifixion of Jesus - to be anti-Semitic.


Neither do I - it's just what was reported in the NT. So no disagreement here either.

event horizon wrote:It's also interesting that you make the choice as one between Hitler and the Koran.


Yes, I agree it is interesting.

But you haven't answered the question - do you agree with Hitler's view that the Bible is correct to blame the Jews or do you now say the Bible is incorrect and agree with us that believe the Jews did not kill Jesus.

Just to be clear, here is a NT verse which blames the Jews:

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.



event horizon wrote: I can play that game too.


Ok, fair enough.

event horizon wrote: Hitler was a Darwinist who believed that humans evolved from lower primates. So, the next time some enlightened Westerner destroys your 18th century belief that humans were created by God, you can also point this out and make the choice as one between Hitler and the Koran.


Well, I also believe humans evolved from lower lifeforms - primarily because this is what God says in the Quran. So, in that way, I guess I share Hitler's views that evolution occured but haven't seen evidence that we've evolved from primates rather than from another separate line. That said, I'm sure I believe other scientific facts that Hitler may have agreed with - that fire is hot, ice is cold etc.

Nice try though - the question still remains, do you agree with the 18th century view that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus as quoted above, or do you now agree with the Quran that the Jews did not kill Jesus.

(You got awefully close to saying that you don't believe Matthew 27 and do blame the Romans despite this verse absolving Pilate - but you stopped short)

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 22, 2009
(You got awefully close to saying that you don't believe Matthew 27 and do blame the Romans despite this verse absolving Pilate - but you stopped short)


That might have something to do with the fact that crucifixion is a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one.

Just to be clear, here is a NT verse which blames the Jews:


Uh oh, too bad that the people responsible for Jesus' death were forgiven by none other than Jesus. But yes, the Jews killed Jesus just as the Koran says the Jews killed prophets sent to them at other times.

Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."


Technically, the New Testament in that passage does not 'blame' the Jews for Jesus' death, rather it records what Jews in a crowd said after they were paid off by the religious leaders.

This differs from what the Koran says, for example (in numerous places), that the Jews are responsible for killing off their prophets.

But hey, that's incredibly tame compared to the other passages in the Koran referring to unbelievers as the 'worst of Allah's creatures', promising eternal torment for those who die in disbelief and calling on Muslims to physically harm unbelievers - Jews included.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 22, 2009
Well, I also believe humans evolved from lower lifeforms - primarily because this is what God says in the Quran.


So you believe that humans evolved from lower hominids but you don't believe humans evolved from lower primates and, eventually, from single celled organisms, all because the Koran says so.

Thanks for confirming that you're a religious fundamentalist who rejects modern science in favor of the Koran - do you also believe the earth is flat by any chance?
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 22, 2009
event horizon wrote:So you believe that humans evolved from lower hominids but you don't believe humans evolved from lower primates and, eventually, from single celled organisms, all because the Koran says so.


Try and keep up eh. I believe that humans evolved from the primordial soup - and with some of your posts I'm even more convinced that some of us are closer to that state than others!

I'm not convinced that we share the same line as lower primates - but it depends where one starts the counting from. Ultimately, the whole universe was brought into existence at the big bang (another belief I have that is corroborated by what the Quran says).

Now let's see whether you've joined the 21st century:
event horizon wrote:Technically, the New Testament in that passage does not 'blame' the Jews for Jesus' death, rather it records what Jews in a crowd said after they were paid off by the religious leaders.


Nice attempt at a side-step. The verse does absolve Pilate of the blame for killing Christ though - do you agree? (You seem to be blaming the Jews in the crowd and not all Jewish people - but not putting the blame on Pilate/Romans - is this correct?)

However, the point was that in the 18th Century (and before) Christians believed that these accounts put the blame on ALL the Jews for the killing of Christ. Luther, for example, was clear on this. Hitler was an example of someone in the 20th century who also believed this.

Now, the question becomes - does one continue to believe this view of the Bible or does one reject it in favour of the current view that the Jews weren't responsible. I mean, Popes have apologised to Jews for Christendom's historic view (as well as the Catholic Church's actions) - so it acknowledged that the past views were wrong.

C'mon, I think you can admit that you do indeed reject the 18th century interpretations of the Bible on this point. I know it sticks in your throat that you have to agree with the Muslim view that Jesus wasn't killed by the Jews - but as you say, there are enough other differences to satisfy your desire to be different.

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 22, 2009
Luther, for example, was clear on this.


When Jews rejected his message, yes, he changed his views - similar to the hardening attitude of the Koran and Muhammad towards the Jews. But again, why let historical facts on Luther, primitive Christianity, Rabbinic Judaism and the fourth crusade get in the way of a good argument?
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 22, 2009
event horizon wrote:
Luther, for example, was clear on this.


When Jews rejected his message, yes, he changed his views - similar to the hardening attitude of the Koran and Muhammad towards the Jews. But again, why let historical facts on Luther, primitive Christianity, Rabbinic Judaism and the fourth crusade get in the way of a good argument?


So now Luther is similar to Muslims in his attitude to Jews.

Brilliant.

:albino:

But the question still remains though:

shafique wrote:Now let's see whether you've joined the 21st century:
event horizon wrote:Technically, the New Testament in that passage does not 'blame' the Jews for Jesus' death, rather it records what Jews in a crowd said after they were paid off by the religious leaders.


Nice attempt at a side-step. The verse does absolve Pilate of the blame for killing Christ though - do you agree? (You seem to be blaming the Jews in the crowd and not all Jewish people - but not putting the blame on Pilate/Romans - is this correct?)

However, the point was that in the 18th Century (and before) Christians believed that these accounts put the blame on ALL the Jews for the killing of Christ. Luther, for example, was clear on this. Hitler was an example of someone in the 20th century who also believed this.

Now, the question becomes - does one continue to believe this view of the Bible or does one reject it in favour of the current view that the Jews weren't responsible. I mean, Popes have apologised to Jews for Christendom's historic view (as well as the Catholic Church's actions) - so it acknowledged that the past views were wrong.

C'mon, I think you can admit that you do indeed reject the 18th century interpretations of the Bible on this point. I know it sticks in your throat that you have to agree with the Muslim view that Jesus wasn't killed by the Jews - but as you say, there are enough other differences to satisfy your desire to be different.

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
So now Luther is similar to Muslims in his attitude to Jews.


Nope - Luther's views towards the Jews - his initial embrace of the Jewish people and condemnation of attacks against them then his later hatred against the Jews when they did not accept him, is similar to Muhammad and the Koran's stiffening attitude against the Jews.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
event horizon wrote:
So now Luther is similar to Muslims in his attitude to Jews.


Nope - Luther's views towards the Jews - his initial embrace of the Jewish people and condemnation of attacks against them then his later hatred against the Jews when they did not accept him, is similar to Muhammad and the Koran's stiffening attitude against the Jews.


I wasn't aware that Luther hated Jews and called for synagogues to be burnt etc because they refused to convert to Christianity - perhaps you have some references for this that I could look up to verify?

More to the point though - do you have ANY EVIDENCE that Luther did NOT believe that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus because of what the Bible says?

The question was whether you shared this Biblical view of the 18th century - that the Bible blames all Jews for the killing of Jesus.

It's not clear whether you have given up this view (I would guess that you actually do believe in the new interpretations, but don't want to admit it).

Let me ask you another question which was perhaps not clearly put in the previous post:
- Do you agree that Matthew absolves Pilate of responsibility of the killing of Jesus - and that the Bible therefore does NOT blame the Romans for killing Jesus?

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
More to the point though - do you have ANY EVIDENCE that Luther did NOT believe that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus because of what the Bible says?


Yes, but I don't feel like consulting professor google for one. Do your own research - and research for me is more than conducting a google search.

Perhaps by that time, after reading books on Martin Luther, including ones by Rabbis, you could begin to formulate posts in which the reader actually thinks you have any basic knowledge of what you're talking about.

But hey, you're free to explain to me what Jesus says in the epistle of James and I'm still free to think you're an id...
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
Nope, I don't feel like consulting Google to verify your new revelation that Luther hated Jews because they refused to accept his message, and not because of what the Bible blames them for.

Simple really - you make a claim, you provide the evidence for that claim.

The more 'out there' the claim is, the greater is the onus on you to provide the evidence.

However, that is an aside - the question still remains - do you agree with the 18th Century view that the Bible says the Romans were NOT responsible for the death of Jesus, but that the Jews were?

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
shafique wrote:Nope, I don't feel like consulting Google to verify your new revelation that Luther hated Jews because they refused to accept his message, and not because of what the Bible blames them for.

Simple really - you make a claim, you provide the evidence for that claim.

The more 'out there' the claim is, the greater is the onus on you to provide the evidence.

However, that is an aside - the question still remains - do you agree with the 18th Century view that the Bible says the Romans were NOT responsible for the death of Jesus, but that the Jews were?

Cheers,
Shafique


That must mean you've never studied Martin Luther at even a cursory level. Although it speaks volumes that you are claiming that he believed this or that. How would you know, exactly?

All of this culminates in a rise in anti-Semitism in the “Dark Ages,” and more and more public disdain for Jews. Many point to my own hero, Martin Luther, as one of the worst anti-Semites of the time. His essay, “On the Jews and Their Lies” has recently received notoriety for its visceral attacks on Jews. (Too many forget his earlier efforts, however, to convert the Jews with his essay, “That Jesus was Born a Jew,” a rare show of concern for Jews at the time.) Given Luther’s worldview that the world would be ending soon and the final judgment would come with it, he thought it in the best interest of Jews not only to convert to Christianity but to refrain from converting Christians to Judaism. It’s impossible to single him out as the only anti-Semite out there; most people at the time were antagonistic towards Jews; he was, however, especially skilled at verbalizing it, which he did with great frequency against anyone who opposed him, especially Turks and Papists.


http://architectureandmorality.blogspot ... n-new.html
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
Thanks, but again you are quoting something that doesn't support your claim.
event horizon wrote: It’s impossible to single him out as the only anti-Semite out there; most people at the time were antagonistic towards Jews; he was, however, especially skilled at verbalizing it,


Wanting to convert Jews to Christianity is also a feature of what was done in Spain after the Muslims were defeated there. This is hardly an argument for the Christians wanting to convert the Jews NOT being anti-semitic.

No where in your quote does it say that when Luther was trying to convert Jews he did NOT believe that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.

You have made the claim that his anti-semitism was borne out of a refusal to convert of the Jews he preached to. This is a stretch - and thus far no evidence has been produced of this novel view.

But that is, with respect, still not the question.

The question remains - do you share the 18th century view that Luther and others had that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus and that the Romans were absolved of this blame?

Simple question.

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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
The Jews were expelled from Spain - in which they were given a year to pack up their possessions and leave - if they did not convert to Christianity.

The forced conversions you are probably referring to were against Jews who had 'converted' to Christianity. There's a difference between the two, but again, someone who butchers history as often as you do tends not to care about the details.


No where in your quote does it say that when Luther was trying to convert Jews he did NOT believe that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.



Please don't move the goal posts. Your last post asked for what I provided.

Nope, I don't feel like consulting Google to verify your new revelation that Luther hated Jews because they refused to accept his message, and not because of what the Bible blames them for.


and

I wasn't aware that Luther hated Jews and called for synagogues to be burnt etc because they refused to convert to Christianity - perhaps you have some references for this that I could look up to verify?


The point of contention wasn't over what Luther believed but why he began to dislike the Jews. Indeed, Luther surely believed that Jews - the leadership, for instance, were responsible for Jesus' death when he wrote treatises against the Jews just as he believed the same thing when he wrote in defense of the Jews.

Unless, of course, you have some new historical insight that Martin Luther had a theological change of heart when he was defending the Jewish people as when he condemned them. If you do, then surely post it. I await with baited breath.

This is a stretch - and thus far no evidence has been produced of this novel view.


Well, I can only explain this belief based on your inability to read plain English, in which the article says Luther passionately defended Jews from Antisemitism only to change course when the Jews did not accept Protestantism, or your ignorance on Martin Luther.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
Nope, I don't feel like consulting Google to verify your new revelation that Luther hated Jews because they refused to accept his message, and not because of what the Bible blames them for.


I wasn't aware that Luther hated Jews and called for synagogues to be burnt etc because they refused to convert to Christianity - perhaps you have some references for this that I could look up to verify?


Ok, fair enough. I'll answer your question that Luther's contempt for the Jews resulted from their rejection of Protestantism - as opposed to your belief that Luther hated Jews because they killed Jesus, a belief that Luther held when he defended Jews and Judaism:

The first set of quotes are from wikipedia, on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
Luther's attitude toward the Jews changed over his life. In his earlier period, until around 1536, he expressed concern for their situation and was enthusiastic at the prospect of converting them to Christianity, but in his later period, he denounced them and urged their harsh persecution and even murder.


Graham Noble writes that Luther wanted to save Jews, in his own terms, not exterminate them, but beneath his apparent reasonableness toward them, there was a "biting intolerance," which produced "ever more furious demands for their conversion to his own brand of Christianity" (Noble, 1-2). When they failed to convert, he turned on them.


In 1519 Luther challenged the doctrine Servitus Judaeorum ("Servitude of the Jews"), established in Corpus Juris Civilis by Justinian I in 529. He wrote: "Absurd theologians defend hatred for the Jews. ... What Jew would consent to enter our ranks when he sees the cruelty and enmity we wreak on them—that in our behavior towards them we less resemble Christians than beasts?"


In his 1523 essay That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, Luther condemned the inhuman treatment of the Jews and urged Christians to treat them kindly. Luther's fervent desire was that Jews would hear the Gospel proclaimed clearly and be moved to convert to Christianity. Thus he argued:

“ If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either. [21]


In August 1536 Luther's prince, Elector of Saxony John Frederick, issued a mandate that prohibited Jews from inhabiting, engaging in business in, or passing through his realm. An Alsatian shtadlan, Rabbi Josel of Rosheim, asked a reformer Wolfgang Capito to approach Luther in order to obtain an audience with the prince, but Luther refused every intercession.[22] In response to Josel, Luther referred to his unsuccessful attempts to convert the Jews: "... I would willingly do my best for your people but I will not contribute to your [Jewish] obstinacy by my own kind actions. You must find another intermediary with my good lord."[23] Heiko Oberman notes this event as significant in Luther’s attitude toward the Jews: "Even today this refusal is often judged to be the decisive turning point in Luther’s career from friendliness to hostility toward the Jews;"[24] yet, Oberman contends that Luther would have denied any such "turning point." Rather he felt that Jews were to be treated in a "friendly way" in order to avoid placing unnecessary obstacles in their path to Christian conversion, a genuine concern of Luther.[25]


And from another online source I read through: http://www.theologian.org.uk/churchhist ... ejews.html

Second, there are seeds of philosemitism that regrettably do not grow into full form in those later works. “The Jews” in fact are “blood relatives” of Christ. Christians should deal kindly and gently with them – the Apostles, after all, were Jews who dealt with Gentiles in a “brotherly fashion.” Christians “must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love.”[37] He further recognizes that Christians are not the moral superiors of Jews. “If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either.”[38]

Thirdly, the venom of the “later Luther” is clearly absent here. Absent are the typical medieval accusations of host profanation, ritual murder, and usury. There are no crude or scatological references. This is not to suggest that direct confrontation is lacking in the work. The Jews are wrong, for example, about both Isaiah’s prophecy of the virgin birth of Christ and the Genesis 49 prophecy that the sceptre (i.e., kingship) would depart from Judah when the Shiloh (i.e., Messiah) comes.[39] They, in fact, are guilty of crucifying Jesus.[40] Yet, never in this work does Luther descend into the depths of (irrational) antisemitism.


To be honest, I never knew that Luther's contempt for the Jews because they rejected him was a 'novel' belief as shafique put it.

shafique wrote:You have made the claim that his anti-semitism was borne out of a refusal to convert of the Jews he preached to. This is a stretch - and thus far no evidence has been produced of this novel view.


But I learn so much from shafique - such as Jesus' speech in the epistle of James, the beliefs and doctrines of Rabbinic Judaism, first century Judaism and Christianity, shafique's belief that Paul persuaded Peter to convert Cornelius in Acts 10, shafique's conclusions of the fourth crusade and now this.

So many pearls of wisdom. It's as if shafique has read every dot com website and wikipedia entry out there. I couldn't possibly compete with such a giant in the field of history and theology.
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 23, 2009
shafique wrote:
The question remains - do you share the 18th century view that Luther and others had that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus and that the Romans were absolved of this blame?

Simple question.



I'll start a new thread on Lutheran anti-semitism.

So, do you or do you not agree with the Bible that the Romans were not responsible for killing Jesus, and the blame lies on the Jews (whether only the ones at the 'trial' or all Jews as Luther etc believed)?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 24, 2009
shafique wrote:
So, do you or do you not agree with the Bible that the Romans were not responsible for killing Jesus, and the blame lies on the Jews (whether only the ones at the 'trial' or all Jews as Luther etc believed)?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 27, 2009
Ok, let's call the belief below - No1

shafique wrote:
So, do you or do you not agree with the Bible that the Romans were not responsible for killing Jesus, and the blame lies on the Jews (whether only the ones at the 'trial' or all Jews as Luther etc believed)?



Moving on to 18th Century Belief No2:

2. Do you believe that the Bible is literally correct when it comes to the creation of the Earth/Universe and that the Earth is only a few thousand years old? (Some Christians today continue to believe this 18th century belief - so you wouldn't be alone).

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 27, 2009
shafique wrote:Ok, let's call the belief below - No1

shafique wrote:
So, do you or do you not agree with the Bible that the Romans were not responsible for killing Jesus, and the blame lies on the Jews (whether only the ones at the 'trial' or all Jews as Luther etc believed)?



Moving on to 18th Century Belief No2:

2. Do you believe that the Bible is literally correct when it comes to the creation of the Earth/Universe and that the Earth is only a few thousand years old? (Some Christians today continue to believe this 18th century belief - so you wouldn't be alone).

Cheers,
Shafique


Which Christians were these? St. Augustine by any chance?
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Re: 18th Century Beliefs Dec 27, 2009
Still waiting for answers to 18CBeliefs 1 and 2.

1. Do you believe the Bible is wrong to exonerate the Romans and blame the Jews for killing Jesus? and
2. Is the Bible literally correct to say that the earth is only a few thousand of years old?

For me - I'm with the 21st century Christians who answer:
1. Yes
2. No.

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