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Maybe you can add to the beliefs supposedly held by some in the 18th century the current Muslim belief that the earth is flat:



It's interesting that not only do many Muslims believe the earth is flat - based on a literal interpretation of the Koran, but that some of these Muslims are also scientists!

Sure thing eh-oh, let me know which 18th Century beliefs you think I hold (and the ones I don't we'll share a laugh at those who continue to hold them).

But where is your reply to the question posed:


1. Do you believe the Bible is wrong to exonerate the Romans and blame the Jews for killing Jesus? and
2. Is the Bible literally correct to say that the earth is only a few thousand of years old?


Cheers

I confirm that I don't believe the world is flat and neither did the ancient Muslim scientists who accurately calculated the circumference of the earth (centuries ago).

Eg. in the 9th century:

Al-Ma'mun
Around 830 CE, Caliph al-Ma'mun commissioned a group of Muslim astronomers and geographers to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to al-Raqqah, in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the distance between them to be 66 2/3 miles and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles.[10]
Another estimate given by his astronomers was 56 2/3 Arabic miles per degree, which corresponds to 111.8 km per degree and a circumference of 40,248 km, very close to the currently modern values of 111.3 km per degree and 40,068 km circumference, respectively

Now, it does go to show that we have some numpties amongst Muslims who don't know science - but this is a recent phenomenon, where sending your numpty off to be an imam when he failed at everything else became fashionable. (But to be fair, doesn't the old guy in the MEMRI video look like the guy off Benny Hill - and he's just as funny!)

I guess eh-oh is lucky his family isn't Muslim, otherwise he might have been packed off to a Madrassa somewhere?

You may also want to look up the achievements of the Iranian polymath of the 11th Century - Al Biruni:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_R ... %ABn%C4%AB


But, seriously, are you planning to answer the 2 questions?

Cheers,
Shafique

1. Do you believe the Bible is wrong to exonerate the Romans and blame the Jews for killing Jesus? and

What does the Apostles' Creed say?

2. Is the Bible literally correct to say that the earth is only a few thousand of years old?

The Bible does not say the Earth is a few thousand years old.

You're 0 for 2.

I confirm that I don't believe the world is flat and neither did the ancient Muslim scientists who accurately calculated the circumference of the earth (centuries ago).

I'm glad that Muslim scientists rejected the teachings of the Koran in favor of Greek science - I seem to recall a certain Greek who was the first to accurately calculate the circumference of the Earth - but that was only a millenium before Islam, so Muslims kind of can take credit for it if they wish.

And, that is actually news to me, since Columbus believed he could travel to the Indies based on Muslim calculations for earth's circumference. The Church (correctly) rejected these calculations and his offer was rebuffed. It was a good thing that the Americas were where they were at, otherwise Columbus and his crew would have starved to death since they packed their ships based on the estimated (Muslim) distance it would take to cross the ocean and reach Asia.

event horizon wrote:

1. Do you believe the Bible is wrong to exonerate the Romans and blame the Jews for killing Jesus? and

What does the Apostles' Creed say?

The Apostle's creed is not in the Bible. The 18th century view was that despite 'suffering under Pilate' the responsibility for the death of Jesus lay with the Jews - because this is what is written in the NT. Pilate, according to the Bible, and the 18th c Chritians, was carrying out the will of the Jews and had 'washed his hands' (literally) of the responsibility.

But the question remains - what do you believe? Were the 18th Century Christians correct to blame Jews and not Pilate?

event horizon wrote:

2. Is the Bible literally correct to say that the earth is only a few thousand of years old?

The Bible does not say the Earth is a few thousand years old.

So, the answer is no. Cool - on that we agree then.

I guess we can both laugh at the beliefs of the Young Earth Creationists then.
As I quoted in the YEC thread, those Christians who take the Bible literally do argue that the earth is only a few thousand years old:

The Genealogies of Genesis record the line of descent from Adam through Noah to Abraham. Young Earth creationists interpret these genealogies literally, including the old ages of the men. For example, Methuselah lived 969 years according to the genealogy. Differences of opinion exist regarding whether the genealogies should be taken as complete or abbreviated, hence the 6,000 to 10,000 year range usually quoted for the Earth's age.

So, I guess you agree with me that the genealogical accounts in the Bible aren't to be taken literally!

event horizon wrote:

I confirm that I don't believe the world is flat and neither did the ancient Muslim scientists who accurately calculated the circumference of the earth (centuries ago).

I'm glad that Muslim scientists rejected the teachings of the Koran in favor of Greek science

Ah, another Orientalist belief coming out.. but hey, at least we agree though that Muslims believed the world to be spherical in the 9th century. So the Benny Hill character is actually someone who believes something from the 5th century!!

And it also looks like you need to do your homework about the accuracy of the Muslim calculations! (Did you bother to look up the accuracy of Al-Biruni's calculations or earlier ones the time of Mamun?)

So, back to question 1 - is the Bible correct to say that Pilate was not responsible for killing Jesus and that the blame/responsibility lies with the Jews (either all of them, or those who were there)?

Cheers
Shafique

But the question remains - what do you believe? Were the 18th Century Christians correct to blame Jews and not Pilate?

You've asked for 18th century beliefs of Christians.

I cited the Apostles Creed.

QED.

So, did you do your homework and confirm that the 8th and 9th century calculations of the earth's circumference were accurate?

I know you cited the Apostle's creed - but that doesn't answer the question about what you believe.

The 18th Century view was what Luther believed - that the Bible was accurate when it absolved Pilate of the responsibility/blame for killing Jesus. Luther also believed in the Apostle's creed.

So, do you believe in the 18th century view that the Bible is correct to blame the Jews and absolve Pilate of responsibility?

(Kudos on a great attempt to avoid the question though - interesting that you are avoiding what the Bible says and citing something else though!)

Cheers,
Shafique

So, did you do your homework and confirm that the 8th and 9th century calculations of the earth's circumference were accurate?

I was actually aware of the article before you copy/pasted it (my response was more in jest). However, that does not contradict what I actually wrote when I said that Columbus' belief for the circumference of Earth came to him through Muslims. As I said, I'm happy for Muslims to take credit for this discovery as well, since Earth's circumference was known for only a millennium before the events in your copy/paste paragraph discuss.

I know you cited the Apostle's creed - but that doesn't answer the question about what you believe.

Yes it does. You asked for 18th century beliefs. I cited the Apostles' Creed. To me, that's more influential to Christians than what any theologian believed or said. But you now seem to be backpedaling and asking me to tell you what the New Testament says - I already have.

that the Bible was accurate when it absolved Pilate of the responsibility/blame for killing Jesus.

Not unlikely at all if you read Josephus (yes, I know you have to google who he is).

(Kudos on a great attempt to avoid the question though - interesting that you are avoiding what the Bible says and citing something else though!)

Now why would I do that? Oh, wait, doesn't the title of this thread ask for 18th century beliefs?

Ok - so we agree that the Muslim scientists did accurately measure the circumference of the earth in the 8th and 9th centuries. Not sure about the Columbus story though - sounds like you're saying he made a big rooster-up because he misread Muslim calculations?

event horizon wrote:

I know you cited the Apostle's creed - but that doesn't answer the question about what you believe.

Yes it does.

I've gone back to see whether you say whether you believe the Bible is correct to say that the Jews and not Pilate was responsible for killing Jesus (as believed in the 18th century - and by Luther, as we've established).

I couldn't see where you said you agreed with the Bible's view, or whether you agreed that the Bible is wrong?

event horizon wrote:

that the Bible was accurate when it absolved Pilate of the responsibility/blame for killing Jesus.

Not unlikely at all if you read Josephus (yes, I know you have to google who he is).

I asked about the Bible, not what the Jewish historian Josephus said. Are you saying the Bible's account is wrong?

So, do you believe the Bible is right to say that PIlate was not responsible for killing Jesus and that the responsiblilty lies with the 'Jews' - as quoted from Matthew's gospel?

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought I'd requote the Bible so that there is no confusion about what is being asked (I'm not asking why Christians don't now agree with the Biblical account, but whether eh believes in the 18th century view that the Bible was correct):

shafique wrote:Ok, let me ask one question at a time then.

1. Do you believe that the Bible is accurate when it blames the Jews for causing the death of Jesus - this was the belief of the Church in the 18th Century, and is based on the NT verses which blame the Jews for killing Jesus.

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.

Now, in the 20th century the above was seen as 'anti-semitic' and the official line is that it was the Europeans (Roman/Italian) who killed Jesus and not the Jews. But in the 18th century, this was not the case - back then they took this Biblical account as gospel.

So, simple question eh, do you agree with the 18th Century version and say the Bible is correct to put the blame on the Jews? (Is the Bible accurate in saying the Jews took responsibility for the killing, and that Pilate is not to be blamed (after all, he washed his hands of the act)?)

Not unlikely at all if you read Josephus (yes, I know you have to google who he is).

I asked about the Bible, not what the Jewish historian Josephus said. Are you saying the Bible's account is wrong?

I see that you have taken up my advice and decided to conduct a quick google search. Good for you.

I see that you're still trying to evade the question.


Cheers,
Shafique

So, perhaps eh will answer this question now - does he agree with 18th century Christians who took the Bible literally and did not blame the Romans for killing Jesus, but put the responsibility on 'Jews'.

I know that the Jewish historian Josephus makes a reference to Jesus and would not have written that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus (although he doesn't actually contradict the Biblical account of Pilate washing his hands and the Jews taking full responsibility) - but what the Josephus wrote is not what the Bible says or what 18th century christians believed.

So, is eh agreeing with 21st century Christians that the Bible is wrong/factually incorrect on this point?

Cheers,
Shafique

What does the Apostles' Creed say?

Does it say eh-oh is evading the question once again?

The Bible says Pilate's role in the killing of Jesus was to 'wash his hands' and the Jews took full responsibility of the suffering that they asked Pilate to inflict (Pilate, after all, wanted to set Jesus free). The Apostle's creed does not contradict this belief.

The 21st century Christian belief is that the account in the NT was inserted by Anti-Semitic writers - but the 18th century belief was that the Bible was right - the Jews were responsible, and not Pilate.

So, do you believe the Bible or do you believe the new version of events?

Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't know that the twenty-first century Christian belief was that Matthew's account of the crucifixion was inserted by 'anti-Semitic' writers. Particularly because Matthew was considered to have been a Jewish evangelist.

bump

So you are saying the verse was inserted by someone not anti-semitic? (I think I quoted Father Murphy O'Conner on his views - certainly I recall his conclusion that the misogynistic verses were fabrications inserted by later clergy - but we'll have to see what he says on this verse, IIRC, he says the description blaming the Jews was inserted by anti-semitic writers).

The question was whether you believe in the 18th century belief that the Bible is correct to blame the Jews and absolve Pilate (Apostle's creed does not help you on this point).

So, do you?

Cheers,
Shafique

What's the current belief on Koranic abrogation amongst Muslims?

Trying to change the subject eh?

So, do you believe in the 18th century view that the Bible was literally correct and Pilate not responsible, or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

What does the apostles' creed say?

Ok, we'll assume that you do believe the Bible is correct and believe that the Jews were responsible for the suffering and killing of Jesus, and that they forced Pilate's men to carry out the punishment. (Either that, or you believe the Bible is wrong and the Jews aren't responsible... nah, your past form is to believe the Bible)

I wouldn't have assumed you had these anti-semitic beliefs - given your support of Israel.

Are you one of these zionist christians, per chance - who blame the Jews for killing Jesus, but want Israel to exist so that Rapture can happen and you all disappear?

Cheers,
Shafique

I wouldn't have assumed you had these anti-semitic beliefs

There's nothing anti Semitic in the passage from Matthew you quoted. I mentioned Josephus previous, but for some reason, you thought I was talking about the crucifixion - oh forget, you're too dumb to know what I'm talking about.