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shafique

muhammad himself, supposedly memorised it sura by sura, and relayed it for people to document.... not forgetting/skipping/altering 1 word in the process. and it still remained the literal word of god would that be accurate shafique? That is right - thousands memorised the Quran word for word, and t...

shafique

And before the first written representation (from which year does the oldest still remaining version date?) all versions contained the exact same words, only a difference in prononciation existed? The Quran was also written down as each verse was revealed, so when the last revelation came, the Qura...

shafique

[Firstly a Correction - the standardised texts took place under the Khalifa Uthman, not Umar as I have typed in the previous posts - sorry, just having one of those days] To my knowledge only fragments of Qurans dating before the standardised versions exist. The standardised versions were compiled d...

shafique

Edit - instead of stating this was a double post, let me add a bit. There is a common 'accusation' that the extant copies of the Quran in Samarkand and Tashkent are not original Uthmani standard Qurans produced in the 650s as the traditions have it. This is based on an assertion that the texts use t...

shafique

Okay, I agree with you, But I notice that Muslims place emphasis on the idea that the Quran contains the literal and exact words of God and is never corrupted. I see muslims use this argument againt the Bible (that the Bible is corrupted p.e.). Yes, Muslims do point out to the purity of the Quran v...

shafique

The MAJORITY in the council agreed with a LONG-STANDING view. That the council was even brought together shows that there wasn't as much intolerance as you believe towards debate. Hold on, the council was brought together to decide which of the competing views of Christianity will be adopted as 'st...

shafique

People recited the same words differently. I would not call this a different 'version'. However, there were no differences in any words of the revelations. What I meant is different written versions, before the current standardized Quran. So, you are absolutely sure that no differences in words exi...

shafique

So allow me to summarize what I learnt today. The preservation of the Quran during the first 30 years depended on recitals. Before the standardized Quran was written, there were minor differences between different written versions. Not comprosing the message though. Shafique, I know you always like...

shafique

Hold on, the council was brought together to decide which of the competing views of Christianity will be adopted as 'standard' and to choose a Bible. Arius' view was also long standing. The only wrong "interpretation" here is yours. The council of Nicea was convened to discuss the divinit...

shafique

FD - yes that's a good summary. freza - thanks for your input as well. I always read that the books of the Bible were first agreed at the Council of Nicea at the same time that the Nicean Creed was agreed. Reading up on the First Council of Nicea, I could not find references to Bible selections - bu...

shafique

I had read in many places that the Bible was compiled during the Council of Nicea in 325 when the issue of the divinity of Jesus was finally made the official belief of the Church. However, looking into this (doing a bit of Google) shows that the Council didn't select the books. Credit is due to fre...

shafique

I also recommend
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html

for a readable summary of the authors of the Bible according to historians.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique

I just noticed that I have joined the order of the Thread Hijackers and am a Master!

I'm honoured.

But is this just a function of number of posts, or is someone sending me a message?

[Can I be a Jedi Master?]

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique

So allow me to summarize what I learnt today. The preservation of the Quran during the first 30 years depended on recitals. Before the standardized Quran was written, there were minor differences between different written versions. Not comprosing the message though. Shafique, I know you always like...

shafique

Re: Apocrypha/Necea: .. Thanks for the clarifications -I too was getting my facts wrong. I started a new thread about the canonisation of the Bible. Some Churches to this day haven't canonised Revelations (eg Syrian Church), and some Churches have more than the 27 books (eg Coptic). So, we should b...

shafique

Re: interpretation etc. You seem to take issue with certain established Christian groups following a certain criteria on interpretation. No - my point has always been that the Bible is open to interpretation. Your point of view is valid from within 'established Christian groups' - but similarly JW ...

shafique

In the Quran/Biblical Integrity thread: For example: Muslims say that Mohammad was an (the) exemplary prophet. I say, he didn't even meet the basic criteria for what makes a true prophet when prophets before him met challenges and requirements of attestation but he didn't. I get the feeling you will...

shafique

Just seeing someone drink or eat pork should not be offensive (it isn't to me). I have a problem with non-alcoholic beer and pretent-pork products - what's the point! :) [ This is just a minor rant - I don't see the point in pretend meat either, if you're a veggie - eat vegetables! ] Culturally most...

shafique

Re: Wars of Apostasy: http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Archive/printarticle.php?lang=E&id=135193 Thanks - this is an interesting read. I take your point about reasons it gives for the wars - the third one is that some did not genuinely convert, and fourth that distant tribes were coming under the i...

shafique

No - my point has always been that the Bible is open to interpretation. The Bible should be interpreted to extract its entire and correct message. This does not mean it is open for anyone to interpret it as they wish, nope. Arius used the whole Bible and mades a pretty good case for Jesus not being...

shafique

ah, interesting! I just have some basic questions to start.. When Mohammad first had his other-worldy visions, why did he doubt that it was God who was speaking to him? Why did he need reassurance of his wife to convince him that he was dealing with the divine? Simply a natural human reaction. What...

shafique

Re: wars of apostacy, Bernard Lewis in 'The Arabs in History' says that the wars were political and not religious. Wikipedia's summary has some good references (and it appears that some Muslims have called the wars 'religious' rather than 'political' - I was always told by Muslim scholars that the w...

shafique

Nucleus wrote:I'm not FD

Sorry Nucleus, will be more careful next time

At least I didn't call you another name!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique

Thanks ebonics. Did all the Jewish people accept Jesus after he raised Lazarus from the dead? How about the Romans? Ebonics - I uncovered in the other thread that the Coptic Bible has some extra books in the New Testament - as you were a Coptic Christian, do you know which books these are (being laz...

shafique

standard chartered: House prices to go up 15% this year. http://www.arabianbusiness.com/514367-property-prices-to-hit-15-growth-in-2008---bank I just came in to publish the same post :o For everyone; it clearly says we are under-supply :!: Hmm - villas lying empty for months on end in Springs doesn...

shafique

What about miracles? I am not sure about this, but at least most prophets of the OT and Jesus of course performed miracles. As far as I know Mohammed didn´t. Sure - miracles are certainly a feature of prophets, but I'm not sure they are a criterion. However they are typically not seen as miracles b...

shafique

Shafique Re: More/Less books in the Bible of different Christian groups....so what? What is the issue here? They differ in the number of books, we discussed this already - some writings are questionable either in origin, authorship, message, some groups think that even if the authorship is uncertai...

shafique

freza - thanks for your comments. Do you have the criteria for us to judge a true prophet by? I'll start you off with two. One I would say, is to declare they are a prophet of God. Another is to make prophecies in the name of God and have them come true. Both these are fulfilled by Muhammad, pbuh. M...

shafique

Yes he was shy and modest, but was it because that's what he wanted or because that was his condition in that particular phase of his life? This 'phase' of his life was age 40, married to a rich lady for 15 years and given away much of the wealth and set all the slaves free. I disagree about your s...

shafique

I thought Mohammad was 25 years old when he married the rich widow. Can you clarify this. Yes, he was 25 when he married his first wife. (40-25 = 15) can you also reference to writings - outside of the Quran - that state that he had absolutely no political and social aspirations. All accounts of Mu...

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shafique - Posts

Compilation of the Bible

'Master of the Thread Hijackers'

Does Muhammad, pbuh, meet Biblical test of Prophethood?

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