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event horizon · Jan 24, 2010

That's assuming that the points in the article Berrin provided are correct.

event horizon · Jan 24, 2010

That's assuming that the article Berrin provided is accurate.

However, I can't help to wonder if this is a revisionist attempt to whitewash Muhammad's dirty little secret.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Aisha brings her dolls with her when she moves into her husband's house.

“My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”

Happy to join you in condemning statutory rape regardless of who carried it out.

shafique · Jan 24, 2010

As I said before, we are all aware of what your 'beliefs' are and what you 'wonder' about is up to you.

I do agree with you that Berrin's long list of references and arguments over-turn your view that Muhammad, pbuh, was a paedophile - and directly addresses the validity of the quotes you've just posted.

So the question becomes - are Berrin's references valid - they certainly are more numerous than the two quotes you've given (which to be fair to Berrin, is where his article starts and then demolishes with clear references).

I asked whether you were just going to concede defeat and let Berrin's references/arguments stand - or whether you were going to address them. Wondering whether they are real or revisionist is a cop-out, but then again - perhaps you aren't interested in finding out the truth?

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Jan 24, 2010

Aisha brings her dolls with her when she moves into her husband's house.

Hey my brother, I tell you what...when my sibling got married few years ago, she took all her cuddly toys with her from childhood..Aparently Some of them are very precious and have sentimental value...I know for instance,one big cuddly teddy bear sitting at the corner of her bedroom..She still takes care of him very delicatly, infact when her husband goes away on travel, she says she gets scared of being alone and that when the night falls, she takes the cuddly bear in bed beside her..
Funny that is, bearing in mind what you said here, yesterday I told her that she was such a little 9 year old girl and that if she continues to take care of these silly toys, this would mean that she wasn't elligible for marriage in the first place and that she should indeed divorce until she has some sort of adult sense and confidence... Anyway after few minutes of winding her...I had to tell why I was doing this...needless to say within seconds she burst into laugh. And told me to bugger off and continue to spool elsewhere... :wink:

event horizon · Jan 26, 2010

The facts are clear - the Koran allows pedophilia and the vast majority of historians agree that little Aisha was only a little girl still playing with her dolls when Muhammad married her and consummated his marriage with her.

The only question remains, will you join me in condemning Muhammad's statutory rape of a tween?

shafique · Jan 26, 2010

The facts are clear - you can't refute the references produced by Berrin!

Berrin - congratulations, I was initially sceptical about your long posts, but on this one you've managed to check-mate eh-oh. Well done.

I guess we can add to the list of quaint beliefs of eh (those that evidence don't support).

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Feb 03, 2010

Update:

Saudi child bride drops divorce from 80-year-old man

The girl, from Qaseem province east of Riyadh, was married last September in return for a dowry of $22,600 (£14,174) paid to her father.
She and her mother had asked a court to annul the marriage on the grounds the girl had been raped.
But now the girl has withdrawn her petition, saying she wants to respect her father's wishes.
"I agree to the marriage. I have no objection. This is in filial respect to my father and obedience to his wish," she was quoted as telling the court by the Okaz newspaper.
The girl's situation was made public in January when a journalist from the Al-Riyadh newspaper encountered the girl, and she begged the reporter to save her.

Saudi Arabia has no law against child marriage, but in April last year the Justice Minister said there should be increased regulation to prevent parents "selling off" their children.
The minister was speaking after the marriage of an eight-year-old to a 60-year-old man.

mesheditor · Feb 08, 2010

I am surprised that many muslims on this thread trying so hard to impose their mind set on some western dudes talking from thier owns, come on folks, we accept Islam as the last and rightous religions of all and want to impose this, western mindsets cant accept these kinds of marriages. westerns also do the same thing by telling you that they are more humane that you and your religion , they wouldnt mind seeing thier own daughters running out of hands but you do. a typical perfect western marriage would start as newly hooked couples (boyfriend and girlfriend) , kids will follow after long prevention or several abortions but of course before marriage

and that is absolutely an ordinary way of living. take it easy.

rudeboy · Feb 08, 2010

can someone who hates Islam and the Quran and its Prophet show me the word phedophile in the QURAN???

event horizon · Feb 09, 2010

rudeboy wrote:can someone who hates Islam and the Quran and its Prophet show me the word phedophile in the QURAN???

The Koran allows pedophilia. Who am I to question what God allows?

event horizon · Feb 09, 2010

mesheditor wrote:I am surprised that many muslims on this thread trying so hard to impose their mind set on some western dudes talking from thier owns, come on folks, we accept Islam as the last and rightous religions of all and want to impose this, western mindsets cant accept these kinds of marriages. westerns also do the same thing by telling you that they are more humane that you and your religion , they wouldnt mind seeing thier own daughters running out of hands but you do. a typical perfect western marriage would start as newly hooked couples (boyfriend and girlfriend) , kids will follow after long prevention or several abortions but of course before marriage and that is absolutely an ordinary way of living. take it easy.

Agreed - nothing wrong with looking past the wrinkles of the women who were Muhammad's age for their granddaughters.

melika969 · Feb 09, 2010

rudeboy wrote:can someone who hates Islam and the Quran and its Prophet show me the word phedophile in the QURAN???

QURAN doesn't have to say the exact word "phedophile", do u forget that it 's a book of SIGNS?

Tom Jones · Feb 10, 2010

Interesting.......!!!

But doesn’t this discussion belong in the Religion Forum?

rudeboy · Feb 10, 2010

event horizon wrote:
rudeboy wrote:can someone who hates Islam and the Quran and its Prophet show me the word phedophile in the QURAN???

The Koran allows pedophilia. Who am I to question what God allows?

support your facts with a verse from the quran otherwise you know what you can do

rudeboy · Feb 10, 2010

melika969 wrote:
rudeboy wrote:can someone who hates Islam and the Quran and its Prophet show me the word phedophile in the QURAN???

QURAN doesn't have to say the exact word "phedophile", do u forget that it 's a book of SIGNS?

Ok the word phedophile wont be there, atleast can you show me the "signs" you mention honey

event horizon · Feb 10, 2010

Koran 65:4 - And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

rudeboy · Feb 10, 2010

event horizon wrote:
Koran 65:4 - And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

eerrr this is surah al talaaq :S lol what has surah al talaaq got to do with phedophiles???? Have you actually read the quran? and the reason for this surah??

event horizon · Feb 11, 2010

Do you think it's wrong to marry pre-pubescent girls?

rudeboy · Feb 11, 2010

you havent answered my question nor have you shown me a verse from the quran that goes on about phedophile. Do my task first and then i will answer your question.

lol you get cornered and then you put the question on me. Nice try mate

but it doesnt work like that.

event horizon · Feb 11, 2010

The passage I quoted is talking about marrying (or rather, the rules for divorcing) a pre-pubescent wife.

That's why I asked. Perhaps you don't see this as advocating pedophilia. Fair enough.

But do you see anything wrong with taking a child bride?

shafique · Feb 11, 2010

Avoiding YET another question eh - how long is the list now? I'm sure I'm losing count:

1. Do you believe in Rapture?
2. Do you condemn Goldstein as a religiously based terrorist?
3. Where are the verses from the Talmud in relation to your allegation against the Quran?
4. Will you ever look for Muslim terrorist convert number 5?
5. Does your Bible contain Matthew's words which absolve Pilate of the responsibility for killing Jesus...

etc etc

rudeboy · Feb 12, 2010

hori no I will not take a child bride nor do I encourage it.

You initially said that Muhammad (pbuh) was a phedophile.

Ok first lets try to analyse the word phedophile. "Pedophile: also spelled PEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult." Encyclopedia Britannica"

In short a phedophile would only have a thing or two for children ONLY. Ok.

Ok lets look at Muhammads (pbuh) wifes and see whether he really was a phedophile or not.

Khadija bint khawilad 40 Twice widowed before
Sauda Bint Zama 50 Widow
Aisha bint Abu Bakr 9 Started living with the prophet at the age of 9.
Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab 22 Widow
Zainab bint Khuzaima 30
Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia 26 Widow
Zainab Bint Jahash 38 Widow
Juwaeria Bint Harith 20 Widow
Umm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan 36 Widow
Marya Qibtiya bint shamun 17 Virgin, Egyptian
Safia bint Hayi bin Akhtab 17 Widow
Raihana bint umru bin hanafa Not available
Maimuna bint harith 36 Widow

75% of His wives were widows, 91% of his wives were 17 years & older.

The statistics show that the prophet’s marriage to Aisha (pbuh) at her young age was an exception and not a norm of his other marriages. Furthermore ‘a pedophile’s main mode of sexual satisfaction is with prepubescent girls’, which is contradictory to the 91% of prophet’s marriage to women 17 years and over. An unbiased examination of Prophet’s life and his marriages to his wives blatantly rejects the notion of his lifestyle fitting that of a pedophile.

Moving on, we all can agree that child abuse can have serious FUTURE consequences for the victims involved such as "Delays in physical growth, impaired language and cognitive abilities, and problems in personality development, learning, and behavior are common following instances of child abuse or neglect.Encyclopedia Britannica"

So if you research about the life of Aisha (pbuh), her personality, physical, mental and spiritual development are all contrary to that of an abused child. And its a shame that SICK and PERVETED human beings feel that Muhammad (pbuh) was a phedophile.

As for why Muhammad (pbuh) married her, I suggest you do some reading instead of copying from here and there.

event horizon · Feb 12, 2010

no I will not take a child bride nor do I encourage it.

But why not? The Koran allows for men in advanced years, like Muhammad, to take child brides and the prophet set the standard for all Muslims, for all times, to take child brides by marrying little Aisha.

But, I don't think you really answered my question - do you see anything wrong with marrying a preschooler?

Maybe you can finger paint with her?

rudeboy · Feb 13, 2010

event horizon wrote:
no I will not take a child bride nor do I encourage it.

But why not? The Koran allows for men in advanced years, like Muhammad, to take child brides and the prophet set the standard for all Muslims, for all times, to take child brides by marrying little Aisha.

But, I don't think you really answered my question - do you see anything wrong with marrying a preschooler?

Maybe you can finger paint with her?

horizon times have changed, what muhammad (pbuh) did was a LONG time ago. It was a exception a norm and a command from God.

If at that time I was alive, yes I would do it. But thats because at that time, girls were being burried alive and you had your slavery thing going on. So if I had to marry a child girl some 1000 years ago just to save her yes i would.

In this modern age, I dont think god is going to come to me and say go marry a child

. Times have changed, you dont have slaves nor do you have girls being burried alive.

Yes other so-called muslims including this Saudi guy did it, they will argue that well Muhammad (pbuh) did it so why cant we. If thats the case, then do EVERYTHING what Muhammad (pbuh) did which is to be a good muslim and to spread Islam. You cant say oh well I will choose what I will do and what I want do.

So in short I wouldnt in modern age but yes some 1000s years ago.

chevaliers-de-sion · Feb 14, 2010

A marriage like that of Mohammed to Aisha aged 8 yrs would result in a prison sentence and an entry on the s e x offenders register in the normal world but one must remember that this is the turd world and itis a normal way of life for these pagans

event horizon · Feb 14, 2010

You have to understand that marriage to prepubescent girls is allowed in the Koran - so, to be sensitive to all peoples, our Western laws should be accommodating for Muslims so they can marry the wee little ones.

rudeboy · Feb 14, 2010

and dont 4get to mention that a muslim cant have s e x with these wee little ones untill they reach puberty. suggest you mention the whole bit and not just bits from here and there

event horizon · Feb 14, 2010

Oh my bad - the Koran says that somewhere, right?

shafique · Feb 14, 2010

rudeboy wrote:and dont 4get to mention that a muslim cant have s e x with these wee little ones untill they reach puberty. suggest you mention the whole bit and not just bits from here and there

Now, now. If eh were to take the trouble and quote verses in context, his whole argument will disapear and then what will he do? :mrgreen:

Sometimes he does take the trouble to change words and delete others in a one-line reference - eg. he misquoted Theophanes saying that 7000 inhabitants of Caesarea were killed, and was exposed for deleting words in the excact quote and changing one word for another (Romans was changed to 'Inhabitants' and the words 'after a seven year siege' were deleted). So, I've learnt to double-check quotes given by the young lad.

Other times he quotes multiple translations of the same Quranic verse, doesn't give the reference to any of them and then tries to imply that they are different verses from the Quran. So, if you don't see a reference - you should smell a rat. Where you see a reference, check it out.

However, most of the time he's actually just having a laugh and cutting and pasting from some Orientalist website or other, so also bear that in mind that he may just be yanking your chain.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Feb 15, 2010

Other times he quotes multiple translations of the same Quranic verse, doesn't give the reference to any of them and then tries to imply that they are different verses from the Quran. So, if you don't see a reference - you should smell a rat. Where you see a reference, check it out.

Well, I didn't really expect you to think that I was quoting different Koranic verses when I was just quoting different translations of one verse.

I thought that was pretty obvious - seeing as how I was discussing the different punishments for women who are guilty of 'whoredom' - one verse saying to confine a woman in her home for the rest of her life and another verse saying to lash women.

The translations I posted all said that women should be confined to their homes (so, logically, I thought it was obvious that others would see this as different translations of the same verse). I guess I must have forgotten about you, though.

To be fair, if I was discussing a contradiction between two verses, why would I post different translations of the same verse? Where exactly were the contradictions that you saw - since each verse commanded home confinement?

As I said, I should always keep in mind that what is obvious to others might not be obvious to you. I've suggested a 'crayon' option before, but it doesn't look like the admins here care about making it easier for you to understand what someone else posts.

Shame on them.

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