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Tom Jones wrote:
At least we agree on a couple of things.

However, you’re still doing your best not to explicitly acknowledge that there must be, at least, some Quranic influence on why those Egyptian women don not find wife beating so objectionable.

I did say that:

I think it is a totally valid hypothesis. Nothing wrong in thinking this could be a cause.

Tom Jones wrote: Such attitude cannot be totally attributed to other factors because no woman in her right mind, Moslem or non-Moslem, would agree to be beaten by anyone.

Well, my point is quite simple. The non-Muslim women (in Egypt and around the world) who DO excuse the beatings they receive, can't be doing this because of the Quran. Only 'eh' would argue that they are acting like Muslim women

Let me put it another way - the Bible has many more openly misogynistic verses than the Quran (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html ).

Therefore, one could argue that women who excuse domestic violence against them and happen to be in Christian countries (or go to Church etc) are doing this because the Bible tells them they need to submit to their husbands.

I personally don't buy that argument.

The main reason I don't buy that argument when it comes to Quran (and Bible, for that matter) is that the overall message of both books is that it is NOT ok to be beaten. I do not think women are stupid to believe the minority of men who think God says it's ok to batter women (or, in 'eh's' case - to enslave virgins).

Tom Jones wrote:Just like the Hijab for example…..

Most Muslim Egyptian women nowadays wear the hijab. Why? Because the Quran says so. It couldn’t be a cultural thing because most Egyptian women (in urban areas) did not wear the hijab during (and prior to) President Nasser’s era. Ask any Egyptian, and they will confirm this fact to you.

I'm sorry, but covering up one's hair and face does not make a woman stupid or subservient.

If anything, it shows that the woman does not stay in the home but goes out and participates in wider society - freely. My contention is that those medieval minded mullahs who think God says it is ok for them to batter their wives, will probably be the same ones that try to keep 'their women' under control and in the house.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:
At least we agree on a couple of things.

However, you’re still doing your best not to explicitly acknowledge that there must be, at least, some Quranic influence on why those Egyptian women don not find wife beating so objectionable.

I did say that:

I think it is a totally valid hypothesis. Nothing wrong in thinking this could be a cause.

Tom Jones wrote: Such attitude cannot be totally attributed to other factors because no woman in her right mind, Moslem or non-Moslem, would agree to be beaten by anyone.

Well, my point is quite simple. The non-Muslim women (in Egypt and around the world) who DO excuse the beatings they receive, can't be doing this because of the Quran. Only 'eh' would argue that they are acting like Muslim women

Let me put it another way - the Bible has many more openly misogynistic verses than the Quran (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html ).

Therefore, one could argue that women who excuse domestic violence against them and happen to be in Christian countries (or go to Church etc) are doing this because the Bible tells them they need to submit to their husbands.

I personally don't buy that argument.

The main reason I don't buy that argument when it comes to Quran (and Bible, for that matter) is that the overall message of both books is that it is NOT ok to be beaten. I do not think women are stupid to believe the minority of men who think God says it's ok to batter women (or, in 'eh's' case - to enslave virgins).

Tom Jones wrote:Just like the Hijab for example…..

Most Muslim Egyptian women nowadays wear the hijab. Why? Because the Quran says so. It couldn’t be a cultural thing because most Egyptian women (in urban areas) did not wear the hijab during (and prior to) President Nasser’s era. Ask any Egyptian, and they will confirm this fact to you.

I'm sorry, but covering up one's hair and face does not make a woman stupid or subservient.

If anything, it shows that the woman does not stay in the home but goes out and participates in wider society - freely. My contention is that those medieval minded mullahs who think God says it is ok for them to batter their wives, will probably be the same ones that try to keep 'their women' under control and in the house.

Cheers,
Shafique

OK…Shafique…if you say so….

I didn’t know that the Quranic teachings have no influence whatsoever on the attitudes and conduct of today’s Muslims.

And if we suspect the existence such an influence, it is just only a hypothesis!!!

I was told that the daily actions of a Muslim are governed by what’s halal and haram, what’s permissible and not permissible, what’s encouraged and discouraged…etc.

But I guess I was told wrong.

OK…I understand now!!

Quranic teachings do not say it is ok to batter a woman - and therefore the Muslim women (and Egyptian copts, and generally nonIMuslim women) who condone wife battering aren't basing their views on the Quran.

Muslim women are indeed influenced by the Quran which gives them rights etc - but your hypothesis relies on Muslim women sharing eh's interpretation of the Quran, and ignoring the women's views in your first post.

The women condoning battery are doing this despite Islam and Christianity, not because of what is in the Quran and Bible.

Cheers
Shafique

Quranic teachings do not say it is ok to batter a woman - and therefore the Muslim women (and Egyptian copts, and generally nonIMuslim women) who condone wife battering aren't basing their views on the Quran.

Ok - so you're reading a different Koran from everyone else.

Koran 4:34 - Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

If your wife is disobedient:

Admonish
Ground them to their beds (like little children)
And beat them

Yeah, I would say that the Koran does say that it is 'ok' to beat your wife.

But perhaps shafique can post the passage in the Koran where he thinks it says 'it is not ok to beat your wives'?

shafique wrote:Quranic teachings do not say it is ok to batter a woman - and therefore the Muslim women (and Egyptian copts, and generally nonIMuslim women) who condone wife battering aren't basing their views on the Quran.

Muslim women are indeed influenced by the Quran which gives them rights etc - but your hypothesis relies on Muslim women sharing eh's interpretation of the Quran, and ignoring the women's views in your first post.

The women condoning battery are doing this despite Islam and Christianity, not because of what is in the Quran and Bible.

Cheers
Shafique

As pointed out by EH above, the Quranic verse giving men the option to beat their wives is direct and clear. It is not in any way ambiguous or open to misinterpretations. Even Arabic speaking people confirmed that to me.

In any case, I gather from your previous replies that the reverse must also be true:

If, instead, the Quran had made it Haram (forbidden) for a man to beat his wife, you would probably continue to think that 67% of Egyptian would (still) find wife beating acceptable!!!! Why, because, as you said, women are apparentely influenced by the Quran only on matters that give them their right!!!??? So they are not influenced by the other verses!!!!???? Right????

You walked into the world of Muslim logic.

Turn the lights off on your way out.

(and expect a lot of circular reasoning)

event horizon wrote:I think it's important to show the Muslim perspective on wife beating -

dubai-politics-talk/wife-beating-the-muslim-perspective-t39819.html

Thankfully I started a thread on this awhile ago and I commented on the proper way to beat your wife by mainstream Muslim scholars.

But don't think that this has anything to do with Islam.

Just finished reading your past thread on the wife beating issue….

Very interesting indeed.

It is so degrading to beat another (weak) human being, let alone your own spouse and the mother of your children. Hopefully, that sanctioned option is not exercised by too many Moslem men.

The Quran allows for corporal punishment in specified circumstances. The Quran is clear about what these are (and even the English translation is unambiguous).

The Quran therefore does not allow or condone wife battery - or hitting a wife in anger.

The violence against women is not the punishment allowed by God - where warnings, banishment from the marital bed etc have to be followed first - so no Muslim woman would use this verse to excuse wife beating.

And in any case the nonMuslim Egyptian women don't use the Bible or Quran when they excuse their menfolk's behaviour.


Therefore the hypothesis does not stand scrutiny.

I haven´t met a Muslim yet who condemns light wife beating if it prevents divorce and is excuted within the frame work of the Quran.

shafique wrote:The Quran allows for corporal punishment in specified circumstances. The Quran is clear about what these are (and even the English translation is unambiguous).

The Quran therefore does not allow or condone wife battery - or hitting a wife in anger.

The violence against women is not the punishment allowed by God - where warnings, banishment from the marital bed etc have to be followed first - so no Muslim woman would use this verse to excuse wife beating.

And in any case the nonMuslim Egyptian women don't use the Bible or Quran when they excuse their menfolk's behaviour.


Therefore the hypothesis does not stand scrutiny.

Koran 4:34 - Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

First tell your wife that she's wrong.

Then ground your wife.

Then, if she persists in her stubbornness, beat her.

What's the big deal?

So, now we've established that God does not allow wife battery but only corporal punishment after the above steps - how can this verse be used by Muslim women (or Coptic Egyptian women) to condone being hit in anger by their husbands?

If it isn"t the Quran and Bible - then there is another factor (and what they have in common is the secular parts of Egyptian culture)


Cheers
Shafique

Right, I forgot that you believe that beating your wife up is corporal punishment - not spousal abuse.

Koran 4:34 - Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

First tell your wife that she's wrong.

Then ground your wife.

Then, if she persists in her stubbornness, beat her.

What's the big deal?

LoL - this from the lad who condones enslaving virgins and slaughtering civilians.

But thanks for quoting what God says and confirming my point that wife battery is not condoned by God.

Cheers
Shafique

It is to everyone else.

It always s me, no matter what religion when I see any verses that women are allowed to be mistreated by men. When the world religions are created by men, what can you expect? That's why I can't bring myself to be anything besides an atheist. Technically, according to Christian tradition, I should be subjugating myself to my husband who is the leader of my house, and he subjugates to god. Both husband and wife should lead the family together, taking turns according to their expertise. Neither should be laying a hand in anger upon the other.

However, on the subject of beatings, the wife and child beating that went on in my family was due to lower socio-economic status, alcohol, lack of anger management, and previous history of abuse suffered by the abuser. I think these are more important factors than whether a religious verse supports corporal punishment.

As for Berrin's friend who wants to marry off her young teen, that is ridiculous. She can't predict that he'll be a womanizer, and if he is, then he can still do that while married. I had teenage parents and they did their best but were not mature enough to be married and raising kids at their age, and it was especially hard financially when they had only a high school education. Teach the boy abstinence and facts about safe se.x in case he does do it, and let the boy get an education and some maturity before getting married and starting a family.

Beating anyone, male or female, is an assault. It doesn't matter what the religion, upbringing, socio-economic background or current situation. Violence is the last resort of the unintelligent and cannot be advocated by any sane human being.

This being said, it seems most religions feel it is 'Godly' to make war on others who are not of their following. The human is unfortunately an inherrently violent creature, particularly when forced into un-natural situations like over crowded single gender accommodation or unsuitable pairings with partners chosen by others.



Knight