Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

European wrote:Muslims are rarely funny Nucleaus.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:04 am ---

It is disturbing that 4 (maybe just 2) people couldn't answer the analogy without making abscure reference to rape; Berrin, took the verse personally on himself; 1 or more hypocritical about complains while they themselves are racist and phobic... wow, just wow! Talk about people with issues.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:24 pm ---

Berrin wrote:a woman cannot rape a man

http://femalesexoffenders.com/fso/

Nucleus wrote: kanelli wrote:Imagine this scenario - Some women run around and drug good looking men and anally rape them. It would be their fault because they tempted women to do it, right?

No it won't be their fault.

As for my wallet analogy I'll make it simple.
(1) If I openly display it with lots of money in it and somebody grabs it and steals it. Theft is still a crime and should be punished accordingly; it is not my fault but would be considered stupid display it that way if there were chances of somebody stealing it.

(2) Most people are not theifs, and won't steal it but probably there might be few. Not displaying it so openly is just being careful. Depends from place to place, in Dubai it may not get grabbed and stolen, but in Congo, I would probably get killed.

(3) Being careful and a theif stealing the wallet are essentially two separate issues, but most people mix them up since most people expect a person to be careful. For example, if somebody leaves keys in the car and it gets stolen, some people in even blame the person for leaving keys in the car, but it doesn't make it less of a crime.

Any disagreement there?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:18 pm ---

kanelli wrote:Does clothing really determine who is more virtuous?

Clothing doesn't but if somebody is dressed like a hoochie what would most people think?

USA has one of the highest rates of rapes, why is that?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:23 pm ---

European wrote:You appear to be saying that if you show your wallet full of money, expect to have it stolen.

Is that correct?

No.

Women are regularly blamed for their own harassment and rape. "She put it all on display." "She was walking in the wrong place/alone." If the bar is set that a woman who shows her face, hands and feet is not covering herself enough to protect her virtue, that means that any woman not draped in a sheet deserves what she gets. Right?

If one looks at rape, the vast majority of rapes happen by someone the woman knows. The dangerous stranger on the street makes up only a small percentage of rapes. Women get raped by family members, friends/known people , and dates. In the date cases, alcohol is often involved. So it would make more sense for women not to drink heavily and be cautious about being alone with their date. As for family members and friends/known people, it is hard to protect a woman from those people isn't it. The solution is not to make all women in society drape themselves in a sheet. According to psychologists, rape isn't about se.xual desire, more about violence, which explains why women of various dressing styles, ages, religions etc. are raped around the world. Changing how women dress does not solve the problem of rape.

I see men walking around with nothing but a pair of shorts and shoes in the summer. Is that them dressing like a hoochie? Is there a special way I should be treating them? If there is a really good looking guy I look discretely and that's as far it is or would ever go. In any one person in public I can find something attractive. Maybe someone has stunning eyes, or a fantastic smile. Women are attracted to men just as much as men are attracted to women, yet the women are the ones who must bear the burden of draping themselves in a sheet and the men can wear whatever they like. This is illogical and unfair.

I hear what you say kanelli and I am in total agreement with you that rape is a crime that is wholly and unequivocably the fault of the rapist. Being modestly or immodestly dressed in the eye of the rapist is not an excuse. I join you in condemning anyone that blames the victims of rapists, and would extend that to all forms of abuse of women - it is not the victim's fault.

The Islamic injunction for men and women to dress modestly is actually preceded (IIRC) with instructions that believers should cast down their gazes - i.e. restrain themselves.

All religions and moral codes say that it is wrong to rape and abuse women. No ifs, no buts, no way.

Cheers,

Shafique

But we have men here saying that if you put something on display it will of course be taken, so you shouldn't put it on display. In practice I see Muslim women covering much of their bodies while their husbands are wearing shorts and t-shirts. There is double standard happening here. For women to go as far as wearing a veil and covering their hands and feet - it is too much and sets a ridiculous standard in society. As the facts show, how people conduct themselves is more significant than clothing being worn by anyone. And I don't think anyone can say what brings a person closer to god, but if it was draping in a sheet and wearing gloves, why aren't the men doing it too?

kanelli wrote:But we have men here saying that if you put something on display it will of course be taken, so you shouldn't put it on display.

We have racists, Islamophobes, misogynists and supporters of religiously motivated terrorism posting here - I was just saying I agreed with your views on anyone blaming rape victims.

The case for modesty in dress can be made without blaming any victims of rape or any other violence against women.

Cheers,

Shafique

I agree Shaf, but perhaps I'd like to see Muslims stop fellow Muslim women from feeling that they should cover their faces in public, especially when it is founded on false logic and supports a male chauvenist view of women and piety. I'd also like to see more discussion on modesty on the part of men.

I agree.

All who choose to cover their faces should do so under no coercion. The women in the article I linked to said they knew it wasn't compulsory, but they chose to do so.

Muslim men forcing women to wear a face veil is wrong.

Cheers,

Shafique

In my view, Muslim men should be telling their Muslim women-folk that wearing a veil in not necessary according to the Quran or for society's sense of what is virtous and what isn't.

In my view, the women shouldn't be relying on the men to tell them what to do in the first place! (And yes, I agree that men should also tell the women the truth about what Islam teaches too)

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:Women are regularly blamed for their own harassment and rape. "She put it all on display." "She was walking in the wrong place/alone." If the bar is set that a woman who shows her face, hands and feet is not covering herself enough to protect her virtue, that means that any woman not draped in a sheet deserves what she gets. Right?

Wrong. I'm not blaming for their own harassment and rape. And that is what is difficult for me to understand, how my wallet analogy is interpreted into supporting rape. First, rape was not in my mind, it was a simple example when a person does something silly but not really can't be blamed for theft. Second, the reaction makes me believe people would have actually blamed me in that situation, which is wrong.

kanelli wrote:I see men walking around with nothing but a pair of shorts and shoes in the summer. Is that them dressing like a hoochie?

That is not normally considered hoochie for men. Not sure why, maybe you can explain it to me. But if I feel I can get harassed walking like that than I won't walk like that, it is just common sense. I doubt women can physically harass me, but granny here is scary.

And this is not blaming the victim, unless you believe not being cautious some how tantamount to getting what the person deserves.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:43 pm ---

kanelli wrote:In my view, Muslim men should be telling their Muslim women-folk that wearing a veil in not necessary according to the Quran or for society's sense of what is virtous and what isn't.

If they are forced to then it is wrong, but many women do it by their choice and even argue about it. I had cpl of discussion with such women online, they pretty much didn't wanted to hear that veil is not mentioned in Quran. I had noting against them, if they prefered to wear veil, it is their choice, but they were claiming it is said in the Quran to wear veil. My point is to you it is something else, and to them it is something else. I wish there were no biases, but I notice each have their own bias and impose what they feel right on others. If you find a women who choose to wear veil and knows english well, I suggest better talk to her directly, talking with men on these issues is pointless. Some support it, some are indifferent, and some against it.

Here is a BBC report:

jackpott wrote:Nobody deserves to get rapes.

English please.

European ,

How may times are you going to pull that ONE out of the bag to justify your MULTIPLE errors??

jackpott wrote:Nobody deserves to get rapes.

Where did I say anybody deserves that? Learn to read please, moron!

European wrote:I agree I do make the odd spelling mistake, not any more than the next person. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You really shouldn't critise people's English, when English may or may not be their first language when you, yourself, don't know that the muliple of sheep is not sheeps. Even primary school children know that.

There you go - again. Justifying your own mistakes as errors, yet pointing out my typo is due to a lack of understanding. Nothing new there - double standards as usual.

I don't critize people where English isn't their first language, unlike some on DF. In your case, there is no question that English is your only language.

shafique wrote:In my view, the women shouldn't be relying on the men to tell them what to do in the first place! (And yes, I agree that men should also tell the women the truth about what Islam teaches too)

But Muslim women do rely on what their Imam, husbands and fathers say about how they dress. I had a coworker who got married and then banned his wife from wearing a swimsuit ever again. He'd probably be thrilled if she wore a burka. Men like to say it is all about choice, so long as the choice doesn't go against their wishes.

'Muslim women' is not a homogenous mass of humanity.

The Muslim women choosing to wear the veil in the article, and my sister in law, made their own minds up and did so knowing it was not compulsory.

I'm fully with you that the women shouldn't be forced or hoodwinked into thinking otherwise, but I wouldn't ban the veil because some women may be forced. Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Shafique

Women are hoodwinked and some are forced, but I guess it isn't very concerning enough for fellow Muslims to do something about it. After all, they'd rather see women more covered than less.

Err, did you read the article. The Imams and scholars are indeed saying that it is wrong to force women to wear the veil and that it's cultural.

How does that fit in with your theory about 'Muslim men'

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:After all, they'd rather see women more covered than less.

Not true for everyone.

From your article quote earlier in the thread, a woman wearing a veil is said to bring her closer to god. That's religious.

Your sister-in-law is French and covering one's face is not in her culture. She is married to someone from England who is of Mauritian heritage, and covering one's face is not in the culture of either of those countries either. So where did your sister-in-law get the idea to wear the veil? From her view on how she wants to practice her religion.

From what I have observed, many Muslims seem to support women wearing a veil - they seem to admire women who are dedicated enough to cover themselves and view them as more virtuous.

--- Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:49 pm ---

Nucleus wrote:Not true for everyone.

I think the more devout and/or radical Muslims, no?

--- Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:08 pm ---

Just saw this this morning.

Muslim street cleric wants to protect Canadian women from se.x assault by forcing them to cover up http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/16/mu ... o-cover-up

Toronto Sun wrote:Canadian laws should be changed to require women to "cover themselves" to prevent sexual assaults, says an Islamic street preacher in Toronto.

Al-Haashim Kamena Atangana, a 33-year-old Islamic convert, called for legal change in response to recent sex attacks at York University.

Atangana is connected with a group called Muslim Support Network and is one of a number of street-corner clerics commonly seen at the Yonge and Dundas Sts.

In an e-mail to the Toronto Sun, Atangana said "the reason ... these sex attacks are continuously happening is because (of) Canadian laws, which give too much freedom to women" when it comes to how they dress.

"You should take your example from the way Muslim women dress," he wrote. "Why does (sic) Muslim women who wear long dress and covers her head aren't targeted for sex attacks?"

Toronto Sun wrote:Moderate Muslim writer Tarek Fatah says Atangana's view is a stark example of radical Islamist misogyny. It is an example, Fatah says, of passages taken from the Qur'an, Islam's holy book, and exaggerated to fit an antiquated, patriarchal ideology such as that of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"This is not about what women wear," Fatah said. "This is about ... some Muslim men believing that any woman whose head is uncovered is fair game because she is lustful...and doesn't belong to the pious (Islamic) sisterhood."

Fatah says it is "hogwash" to think a woman wearing traditional Islamic dress will not be sexually assaulted, and points to an on-going problem of sexual harassment in Egypt, where Muslim faith dominates.

According to a 2008 report from the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83% of Egyptian women had experienced some form of sexual harassment or assault at some point. And well, over half of those surveyed around 70% wore veils of some kind, particularly head scarves.

"These results disprove the belief that sexual harassment is linked to the way women dress," the report states. "This confirms that the stereotypical ideas of a patriarchal culture that blames women even if they are victims, is opposite to reality."

kanelli wrote:I think the more devout Muslims, no?

No, in hajj veil is not allowed. Face must be open in hajj. In our group, there was a woman who prefered to wear veil, but since in iharam face should be open, it was not easy for her. Good for her, major state of ihram can be minimum up a day and few ours, and then she got back to her veil.

Had a discussion there, you can read the replies: http://forums.understanding-islam.com/s ... ab-is-Fard

That is related to the arugment I had on facebook with lady who was claiming it is in Quran and fard, which was quiet a stretch of imagination the way she was translating.

You've done the Hajj? Congrats, it must have been an amazing experience.

The one poster on that forum sums it up well -

Osman wrote:There is a difference of opinion amongst mainstream scholars. The majority of scholars hold that it is not obligatory, but is a virtuous act. A minority do hold it to be an obligation. Both have their evidences and Allah knows best.

In most religions people are interpreting the holy texts in many different ways, and it doesn't seem to be any different in Islam.

I still argue that it is false to view women who wear a veil as being more virtuous when it is their conduct that makes them so, not what they wear. Men are not told to wear a veil so that they are viewed as more virtuous, a glaring double standard. What a woman wears doesn't protect her from harassment and se.xual assault. Finally, in countries where the dominant culture holds the value that seeing someone's face in public is important, there is even less of a case for women choosing to wear a veil.

European wrote:You just did.

I apologize. I didn't know that bull$hit was a language.

European wrote:I'll make allowances seeing as you didn't know the plural of sheep wasn't sheeps.

I'm make allowances in advance for your future errors. OOOPs, I mean "typos".

You might want to change that dog bone you've been chewing on and get a new one where you can remind me of my spelling error. Let me help you out: hyphenation.

European wrote:Typos for you and errors for others. I see.

I owed up to having made a spelling error. I guess you missed that - or maybe not???

Here's an idea, why don't you blame your sticky keyboard?

European wrote:Apparantly it was a mistake.

dubai-politics-talk/navy-opens-fire-boat-the-coast-the-uae-t51479.html

One of many examples of the proud native Englishwoman's spelling and grammatical errors.

well i think you should not make fun of such attempts by laughing and sharing their pics.. because you can never understand the trauma, the person was going through before making such an attempt..

I do not think that it's all about fashion but rather adoptation and some respect to the local customs and achivements like emancipation, some Muslims care nothing about. Espesially it concerns to our resident propagandist of decent values. At the same time they have nothing against using Western freedoms.

On the other hand, when securities (two big guys) forced a mother of three (Russian tourist) leave Sahara Centre in Sharjah in front of her children like prostitute because her skirt didn't cover her knees they told us that it was Ok because it's Muslim country.

Don't worry chief the girl in the video was in australia which is under very staunch control of irreligious zionist regime ... In 1975 UN assembly determined that Zionism was a form of racism and racial discrimination". resolution 3379... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General ... ution_3379

countries voted in favour.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNGA_3379_Map.png

then in 1991, under bush administration (who are zionists favourite family partners) this resolution was revoked... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... tion_46/86

countries voted in favour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNGA_4686_Map.png

So don't get surprised if this lady was a false flag operation in order to ban burqa in Australia, just as it was tried/attempted in various part of europe at the same time (beggining with france) that went hand in hand with minaret bans and islamofobia etc. Do you see how zionism manipulates nations all around the world for no religion and religious symbols !!!

Berrin ,

Do you see how zionism manipulates nations all around the world for no religion and religious symbols !!!

As we all agree here (correct me if you don't) that burkha has never beean an religious symbol and some part of Islam at all.

As for your conspiracy theory I am definitely part of it (see my signature).

And last but not least before criticizing decaying Western World you'd better look at the own kitchen garden. In Dubai Arab "gents" always chase young woman in miniskirt in front of her husband at noon time and only my language and body (both of them are prety strong) is the only remedy from these contengious desises. The latter has nothing common with Islam. No no of cause not.