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kanelli · Jul 11, 2012

EH, no one here has argued that what happened in that situation wasn't wrong - the woman clearly tried to abuse the fact that she had covered herself and could attempt to claim it wasn't her. Some people may think that this is only one of many reasons why the burka should be banned. (And in my personal opinion, NO ONE should be allowed to cover their faces in public on a regular basis, and in the cases where people do for a specific circumstance, they should show their faces if asked by authorities. (e.g. Halloween, medical mask etc.) Some people disagree that the burka should be banned completely and think that this one instance isn't a good enough reason to ban the burka. Each to their own opinion.

--- Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:41 pm ---

Shaf, there has to be a reason why the veil is being worn by more women in Mauritius in recent years.

shafique · Jul 11, 2012

kanelli wrote:Shaf, there has to be a reason why the veil is being worn by more women in Mauritius in recent years.

I think it might be down to the same issues raised by the British young women in the article - an outward expression of their faith. This is something alien to Mauritian Muslim culture - as the parents didn't do this. It may also be that some groups are influenced by Wahabis (some Imams may have gone to study in Saudi).. but it is quite a recent observation.

And it is by choice. We do have conservative people living in Mauritius who frown on their daughters going out to work etc - and tend to want them to stay at home.. but they are few and far between, and don't force the veil on the women.

The cases I'm referring to are women going about normal business - in work, education etc choosing the veil. A few even wear gloves.. which is even more strange for Mauritius.

We have a 'live and let live' culture here - with all religious groups having national holidays on their main religous holidays, and we all know about each others culture and religion. (We have Tamils and northern Indian Hindus, for example and know the difference between their festivals - and enjoy their cakes.. ditto with Chinese Mauritians and their festivals, Christians and Muslims..)

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli · Jul 11, 2012

So seeing women wearing veils and gloves and taking on Saudi super-conservative cultural dressing is not alarming to you from a religious or cultural standpoint?

shafique · Jul 11, 2012

Not alarming or threatening, no.

I think it's the equivalent (right now) of the fashion amongst teenage girls to go vegan/vegetarian, to be honest. I expect some will 'grow out' of the phase - whilst others will continue to cover up.

The general trend though is for women to wear the fuller headscarf - the 'hijab' they call it here, whereas in the past it was just an indian head scarf that was worn loose. A lot of women are choosing the hijab - even my wife favours this now. I guess that's the latest fashion.

Cheers,

Shafique

rayznack · Jul 11, 2012

kanelli wrote:rayznack, no one here has argued that what happened in that situation wasn't wrong - the woman clearly tried to abuse the fact that she had covered herself and could attempt to claim it wasn't her. Some people may think that this is only one of many reasons why the burka should be banned. (And in my personal opinion, NO ONE should be allowed to cover their faces in public on a regular basis, and in the cases where people do for a specific circumstance, they should show their faces if asked by authorities. (e.g. Halloween, medical mask etc.) Some people disagree that the burka should be banned completely and think that this one instance isn't a good enough reason to ban the burka. Each to their own opinion.

You have two options:

1) Pass a law banning the burka in public

2) Pass a law requiring people in certain incidents/situations to lift their veil to be seen by the other party

Otherwise, you have a serious judicial loophole that has and will be exploited.

It really isn't this difficult to figure out.

Apparently something so sensible is decried as "Islamophobia" by those who can't follow a line of logic.

And, if a religious mother of seven does this to a police officer, then I have no reason to doubt it will be imitated by other holy rollers to ordinary citizens.

--- Jul 11, 2012 ---

shafique wrote:I think it's the equivalent (right now) of the fashion amongst teenage girls to go vegan/vegetarian, to be honest. I expect some will 'grow out' of the phase - whilst others will continue to cover up.

A lot of threatening/reactionary beliefs associated with teenagers going vegan.

shafique · Jul 11, 2012

I have no reason to believe your going to be right this time round, eh.

Relatively few women wear the veil and even fewer try and get away with the sillly defence in the OP from a few years back. If your paranioa was true, your blogger friends would have picked up at least one other case worldwide since. Think about it.

Cheers,

Shafique

rayznack · Jul 11, 2012

Nice fallacy. That's assuming I keep track/have a photographic memory/encountered every story that may have been reported.

What you can't address is exactly what I have said; you're simply allowing a loophole to be exploited because you insist it won't happen too often.

I seriously wonder how it's possible to be this unable to think abstractly/conceptually.

kanelli · Jul 11, 2012

So Shaf, you think they'll grow out of it and it is just a passing fad? If they don't, do you think perhaps their husbands and sons will grow up thinking that proper women cover themselves completely and expect their wives and sisters to dress that way? Do you think those women will tell their daughters that proper women cover completely? So then you have the next generation expecting women to cover completely in public. And what is it all based on? Saudi religious/cultural conservativism in Mauritius.

--- Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 pm ---

Men will start to view any woman who chooses not to completely cover her face, hands, feet etc. as immodest and worthy of any kind of harassment she gets.

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

kanelli wrote:So Shaf, you think they'll grow out of it and it is just a passing fad?

Some will, some won't.

I do agree that how the mother dresses will have a big influence on how the children view on the issue. I'd expect them to also be told the reasons why mum is dressing differently and why she chose to wear the veil.

I see this as no different from the opposite where Mums give examples of what levels of dress/undress are acceptable in public etc.

I have absolutely no issue with women choosing to wear the veil and then telling their children and husbands etc why they so chose to do so. I'd be surprised if they brought up their children to then go and oppress women and enforce their choice on them. I'd give the women (and men) more credit than that.

But whilst discussing hypotheticals is interesting - for me it doesn't make a convincing case for a legal ban on the face veil.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

My point simply is that I haven't yet seen a good reason to criminalise women who want to wear a veil. An example from Australia a couple of years ago is clutching at straws, and the view that some of the women are oppressed seems to be a harsh reason to stop others from choosing to wear the veil.

I agree with the Evening Standard who says it also un-British to wish to ban it:

Whether one agrees with the choice London Muslims make (when they do choose) to cover their faces or not is irrelevant; protecting the freedom to allow that choice is a basic tenet of British life.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

I'd vote against a burqa ban as it goes against British principles. I'd imagine that if went to a referendum, and the issue was debated by both sides, we'd see that the majority of British people will side with British values and those who share the xenophobic views of the likes of the EDL will be in a minority.

The EDL supporters like to think they are speaking for the majority. In my experience they are just a vocal minority.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

I totally concede that you think you would win the referendum.

I disagree and believe that the majority of fellow Britons would vote to not ban the veil for the very reason given in the Evening Standard - it just isn't the British thing to do.

Many may not agree with the reasons, or with the veil itself - but to make it a criminal offence? I doubt whether it would win a referndum. Certainly, it has no chance of winning a vote in Parliament.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

Yes, I do believe that the majority of British people would not vote to criminalise ladies who choose to wear the veil.

At least European and I agree that the politicians won't be voting for it anytime soon - even though he/she has constructed a conspiracy theory to explain it.

As I said a few posts ago, EDL supporters like to think the majority think like them. I don't share this view and think the majority of fellow Britons would stand up for British values.

Cheers,
Shafique

rayznack · Jul 12, 2012

shafique wrote:I'd vote against a burqa ban as it goes against British principles. I'd imagine that if went to a referendum, and the issue was debated by both sides, we'd see that the majority of British people will side with British values and those who share the xenophobic views of the likes of the EDL will be in a minority.

The EDL supporters like to think they are speaking for the majority. In my experience they are just a vocal minority.

Most Britons are against Homophobia. In fact, you share very little in social values with the average Briton (most viewing you as an extremist). Oh wait, that's not what you meant.

But basically you have no answer why an easily exploitable loophole should exist.

kanelli · Jul 12, 2012

shafique wrote:I have absolutely no issue with women choosing to wear the veil and then telling their children and husbands etc why they so chose to do so. I'd be surprised if they brought up their children to then go and oppress women and enforce their choice on them. I'd give the women (and men) more credit than that.

Perhaps you give too much credit? Women can also oppress other women. My concern is that by setting the "virtuous" standard to women not even showing their face, hands and feet, that pretty much means that women who show any surface of their skin are less virtuous and by extension can face harassment for their immodesty. It can and it does get used as an excuse. I speak from experience when I was harassed in Dubai when wearing long sleeved shirts and long pants, but wasn't wearing what is considered "virtuous", which is an abaya. And my main complaint still remains that the religious reasons some people are using don't seem to come from the Quran or Hadith, so where do women get the idea that covering all of their skin makes them closer to god or more virtuous?

Women who go topless get fined or charged with public indecency in some places, and entering shops wearing no shirt and no shoes is prohibited. There are reasons in society why various states of dress and undress are not accepted, and the burka is no exception.

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

kanelli wrote:And my main complaint still remains that the religious reasons some people are using don't seem to come from the Quran or Hadith, so where do women get the idea that covering all of their skin makes them closer to god or more virtuous?

You may not understand why they make the choice, and it may well be outside the Quran and Hadith. But my point is that they are making the choice and, to my mind, it is not causing anyone any harm (least themselves).

The irony is that from my perspective - others seeing burqas is actually as sign that these women are out and about in society, and not being locked away in their homes by their 'menfolk', and as such I'd say that feminists should be encouraging and applauding the mingling in society of these women.

I agree that societies can and do set limits on dress - but my view is that on whether to wear a veil or not is an issue where I am pro-choice. I'm not advocating women should wear it, just that they should not be forced to be criminals if they choose to do so.

I would be in favour of measures to ensure that women aren't forced into the veil and can articulate their reasons for choosing (like the lady in the article who said it was not obligatory) - and certainly think that education and womens groups can help here. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath-water. Those who genuinely choose to wear the veil should be allowed to do so, IMO.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli · Jul 12, 2012

But Shaf it does cause harm. It perpetuates the notion that women are a temptation and must hide themselves away. It also sets the standard that any showing of skin makes a woman immodest. This is not a good thing in society. I certainly hope that if your wife or daughters wanted to cover all of their skin/hide their face, you'd have a talk with them about it and not just say "Oh, whatever you like." It seems to me that if they wanted to wear tank tops or short skirts you'd likely have something to say about how they choose to dress. :roll:

shafique · Jul 12, 2012

You believe it does harm. I disagree.

Your objection stems from not agreeing for the reasons women choose to cover up. I think banning is a poor alternative to education and persuasion that they are causing harm to themselves.

Yes, it is a value judgement they are making on what is considered modesty - but so is the value judgements of women who think wearing very little is not immodest.

However, it is their choice and I wouldn't criminalise them just because the harm in your opinion is that they don't share your opinion of what is modest for them.

I also don't buy the argument that women choosing to cover up causes men/others to view women who don't cover up any differently. That ship has already sailed - and Islam is pretty clear that men and women shouldn't be looking in any case.

Cheers,

Shafique

Berrin · Jul 12, 2012

Women do not realise that by wearing too little and reaveling every private piece of their body/beauty makes them become female idols for body/beauty worshiping. In every newspaper corner, in every magazine there is only one idol pagan god and that is female human body. They don't care about your personality,they don't care about your intellectual qualities, they don't care about how much you suffer,they don't care about the price you have to pay for fame and beauty, they don't care about if you can't stand pressure and get alcoholic or drug addict or socially or mentally break down under more performance, all these godless male who worship female body is actually doing it for self pride, money,power and control of masses for their own agenda.. Wake up ladies do not let yourselves be used as part of political agenda and for profit maximisation when you will be loosing out in the hereafter.. (Do not please bash me, I am a believer

)

Berrin · Jul 12, 2012

Now that you wished, I am feeling really well:) even nick rothschild admitted that they created and supported America's women's liberation movement and feminism in order to maximise tax collection for government. Now they milk everyone to zilch while they live in their untouchable glass towers getting rich through interest rates, money/wealth manipulation and globalisation. Prove me wrong...

desertdudeshj · Jul 12, 2012

Doesn't take much to set off your conspiracy theories, now does it Berrin.

P.S : Please don't respond with 10 hr youtube videos and links from weird sites.

Berrin · Jul 12, 2012

You love me don't you dear

I am this irresistible flower and you're my passionate bumblebee around

Nothing that I write or give as links that are weird, they are hidden facts from us, if we weren't so stupid as we are how else do you think a hand full of god damn rich idiots could play upon us like they wish...

desertdudeshj · Jul 12, 2012

Irresistible bumblebee...passionate flower ...... Wtf....what have you been smokin'

kanelli · Jul 13, 2012

Berrin wrote:Women do not realise that by wearing too little and reaveling every private piece of their body/beauty makes them become female idols for body/beauty worshiping.

Berrin, are the face, hands and feet private?

Shaf, there is plenty of evidence out there - the ship has not sailed. Even you think that women who cover more of their bodies are more virtuous than women who don't, that's why you so easily support a woman's choice to cover up.

shafique · Jul 13, 2012

^We can at least agree that I'm supporting a woman's right to choose and opposing criminalising the choice.

And whether we agree or disagree with the choice is irrelevant when considering the principle of protecting freedoms:

Whether one agrees with the choice London Muslims make (when they do choose) to cover their faces or not is irrelevant; protecting the freedom to allow that choice is a basic tenet of British life.

Cheers,

Shafique

Berrin · Jul 13, 2012

kanelli wrote:Berrin, are the face, hands and feet private?

One of the verses in the Quran protects a woman's fundamental rights. Verse 59 of Surah Al-Ahzaab reads: "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when outside) : so that they should be known (as such) and not molested".

According to the Quran, the reason why Muslim women should wear an outer garment when going out of their homes is that they may be recognised as "Believing" women and differentiated from streetwalkers for whom sexual harassment is an occupational hazard. The purpose of this verse was not to confine women to their homes, but to make it safe for them to go about their daily business without attracting unsavoury attention.

The Quran does not suggest that women should be veiled or they should be kept apart from the world of men. On the contrary, the Quran is insistent on the full participation of women in society and in the religious practices.

When outside only the face and hand are not private, but again it's a matter of choice with women, if they wish to wear full veil then so be it..

http://www.islamfortoday.com/almuhajabah01.htm (this article explains it very well)

Nucleus · Jul 13, 2012

Berrin wrote:According to the Quran, the reason why Muslim women should wear an outer garment when going out of their homes is that they may be recognised as "Believing" women and differentiated from streetwalkers for whom sexual harassment is an occupational hazard.

That seems out of historical context.

In this verse, in contrast to the earlier verse, the women are directed to put their large wraps over their heads. This direction, it must be remembered, is given to women for times when they have to go out of their houses or work places[1]. But even here, the direction is not to cover their heads, but to pull a part of their large wraps a little over their faces. The direction is not that of veiling a woman. It only means that the woman, by her appearance, should be recognized as one belonging to a decent and noble class and thus should not be harassed.

[1] According to my revised opinion, this verse is not a general directive for women to follow, while going in public places. On the contrary, as the context of the verse indicates, the verse relates to the particular situation in which two distinct social classes - with separate social and socio-moral standings - existed, side by side, in the society - the slave girls and the free women. The background of the verse is that some of the hypocrites would harass free women, when they would come out of their houses. Later, when they were reprimanded for their behavior, they would, innocently, say that they mistook these women for slave girls. It was in this background that the referred verses were revealed. Seen in this context, the verses do not entail a general directive for Muslim women to follow, when going out of their house, but a directive for Muslim women for the sole purpose of creating an apparent distinction between them and the slave girls - who existed in the society as a separate class of women, alongside the free Muslim women. In other words, the purpose of the directive is not to create a distinction between the 'good' and the 'bad' women of the society, but to create a recognizable distinction between the free women and the slave girls in the society. If this interpretation of the referred verses of Surah Al-Ahzaab is considered correct, then it would follow that the directive entailed in these verses shall stand redundant, with the universal abolition of the institution of slavery. Moreover, this would also mean that the Qur'an has not given any separate directives regarding the dress code of women for public and private places. In fact, the only permanant directive of the Qur'an, then, would be the one given in Surah Al-Noor.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/q-an ... heir-heads

kanelli · Jul 13, 2012

So there we are - women who aren't wearing "signifying" clothing are possible prostitutes or deserving of harassment.

Berrin · Jul 13, 2012

No, everytime we put across information, you interpret them to suit your means,... there are millions of men out in the street when you're walking alone.. how could you possibly work out if and which of those men/street gangs going to harass you if they have intention to harm. Everday hundreds of women get groped in bars,trains,buses or harassed by se.xual abuse out in street day and night.. Why don't you wanna see this side of the situation eh..

Which is more appropriate? take your own precaution/preventive measure, or expect millions of men "behave well" at the same time when it is simply not possible and not logical..

--- Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:47 pm ---

Nucleus wrote:That seems out of historical context.

Is that about only the face veil or outer garment as well?

kanelli · Jul 13, 2012

Berrin wrote:Which is more appropriate? take your own precaution/preventive measure, or expect millions of men "behave well" at the same time when it is simply not possible and not logical..

I am often finding men in public attractive. Maybe I should start se.xually harassing them? They'd deserve it, because it is their fault that I found them attractive. I should make a youtube video about how men should cover their skin so that they can be more virtous and closer to god. No need to provide any scripture. The truly virtuous will heed the call to cover!

Berrin, it is nice to know that you feel that millions of men just can't help themselves to behave around women and that it is their natural instinct to se.xually harass women. Silly me for thinking it was possible for men to view women as human beings instead of se.x objects. How illogical of me.

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