Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve And Prosper!!!!

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Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 02, 2010
This is a letter by Robert Genn in an Artists’ Community Newsletter, in which he refers to an article written in Psychology Today titled "Can Fundamentalists be Creative?"

It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.

Countries that allow fundamentalism to flourish in their societies, esp. those in the Moslem world such as Iran, KSA, Pakistan..etc, should take heed. If they want their countries to advance in science, technology, art, …etc,, they should suppress fundamentalist thinking and open up to secular lateral thinking. In other words, to think “outside the box"!!!

TJ




Dear Artist,

My recent mention of "Can fundamentalists be creative?" had readers scurrying to the Psychology Today article. When neurologist Ken Heilman and technologist Russ Donda's observations were first made public in 2007, there was, of course, a great howl from all kinds of religious folks. The howling goes on. In my case, I'm one of those guys who think creativity is an equal opportunity situation, and I try to evangelize all comers.

The authors of the study defined creativity as the ability to question and conceive things beyond the status quo and diverge from the familiar. They defined fundamentalism as any doctrinal belief system not generally open to scrutiny and likely to be intolerant of other similar systems. In most cases, personal interpretations tend to be marginalized. Heilman and Donda found fundamentalists to be "poorer in possibilities," and less able to see the value of play.

Among their sources, Heilman and Donda referred to an Israeli study where students in secular schools had significantly higher scores in divergent reasoning than students in religious schools.

It seems fundamentalists avoid the psychological pain brought about by examining the outside world and tend not to allow themselves bouts of divergent reasoning.

It's almost like there are two main kinds of people--those who are curious, challenging, inventive and creative, and those who rely on some sort of dogma to make sense of their world. Studies show that creative thinking takes place at the front of the cortex, while further back the brain seems to be more submissive and gullible. To its credit, this back area also features more stable and defensive thinking, and may represent a hangover from primitive times when fear was more in your face.

One of the more controversial findings of these studies is that religious fundamentalism may permanently damage the growth of a child's brain. The thinking goes like this: People with physical damage to their frontal cortex from an accident or medical issues tend to perform poorly in creative thinking. The underutilization of this area, particularly in early life, seems also to impede its proper development and stunt the growth of creativity. In short, fundamentalists may have trouble thinking outside the box.

Best regards,

Robert

PS: "Based on what we know about brain growth, it is possible that a child taught only to follow, and not to personally wonder about or question doctrine, will suffer from an abnormal development of the frontal lobes."

Esoterica: One of the tests typically used to determine creativity in young people is to ask them to give alternate uses for common kitchen utensils. The fork, for example, is obviously an instrument for impaling food and bringing it to the mouth. Creative children are likely to suggest its use as a catapult to flick peas, a lever for lifting objects, a small plucked instrument, a tool for scribing parallel grooves in clay or Plasticine, or many other applications. According to these studies, children brought up in rigid religious environments are less likely to use forks to flick peas.

http://clicks.robertgenn.com/fundamentalism.php


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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 02, 2010
Hey, Tom - have you read 'Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris?

It's quite a short book.

Here's the blurb from his website:

Letter to A Christian Nation

In response to The End of Faith, Sam Harris received thousands of letters from Christians excoriating him for not believing in God. Letter to A Christian Nation is his reply. Using rational argument, Harris offers a measured refutation of the beliefs that form the core of fundamentalist Christianity. In the course of his argument, he addresses current topics ranging from intelligent design and stem-cell research to the connections between religion and violence. In Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris boldly challenges the influence that faith has on public life in our nation. In his “Note to the Reader,” he writes:

Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency.The book you are about to read is my response to this emergency…


[Reviews:]
I dare you to read this book…it will not leave you unchanged. Read it if it is the last thing you do.
—Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene and The God Delusion
From his Foreward to the UK Edition

It’s a shame that not everyone in this country will read Sam Harris’ marvelous little book. They won’t, but they should.
— Leonard Susskind, Felix Bloch Professor in theoretical physics at Stanford University, author of The Cosmic Landscape

Sam Harris’s elegant little book is most refreshing and a wonderful source of ammunition for those who, like me, hold to no religious doctrine. Yet I have some sympathy also with those who might be worried by his uncompromising stance. Read it and form your own view, but do not ignore its message.
— Sir Roger Penrose, emeritus professor of mathematics at Oxford, author of The Road to Reality.

Reading Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation was like sitting ring side, cheering the champion, yelling “Yes!” at every jab. For those of us who feel depressed by this country’s ever increasing unification of church and state, and the ever decreasing support for the sciences that deliver knowledge and reduce ignorance, this little book is a welcome hit of adrenalin.
— Marc Hauser, Professor of Psychology, Biology. and Biological Anthropology at Harvard University, author of Moral Minds

If you believe in a religion, even the mildest form of Christianity, please read this book. It won’t take you long, but it might change your mind.
—Matt Ridley, author of Genome and Nature via Nurture

Sam Harris is a brave, intelligent, clear-sighted author whose brilliant essay should be read by every adult who has ever believed that a religious faith can solve the world’s problems.
—Desmond Morris, author of Peoplewatching and The Nature of Happiness

Sam Harris fearlessly describes a moral and intellectual emergency precipitated by religious fantasies. It is a relief that someone has spoken so frankly, with such passion yet such rationality. Now when the subject arises, as it inevitably does, I can simply say: Read Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation.
— Janna Levin, professor of astronomy and physics at Columbia University, author of How the Universe Got Its Spots and A Madman Dreams of Turing Machines

http://www.samharris.org/site/book_lett ... an_nation/

(I'm told that if you search for pdfdatabase and the name of the book, you may find it available online as a 29mb download)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 03, 2010
Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper
It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.


Before we can have substantial argument, you have to describe what exactly you understand from Fundamentalism...And how relative is this description to either Christian/Secular/Islamic thought.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 03, 2010
shafique wrote:Hey, Tom - have you read 'Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris?

It's quite a short book.

Here's the blurb from his website:

Letter to A Christian Nation

In response to The End of Faith, Sam Harris received thousands of letters from Christians excoriating him for not believing in God. Letter to A Christian Nation is his reply. Using rational argument, Harris offers a measured refutation of the beliefs that form the core of fundamentalist Christianity. In the course of his argument, he addresses current topics ranging from intelligent design and stem-cell research to the connections between religion and violence. In Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris boldly challenges the influence that faith has on public life in our nation. In his “Note to the Reader,” he writes:

Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency.The book you are about to read is my response to this emergency…


[Reviews:]
I dare you to read this book…it will not leave you unchanged. Read it if it is the last thing you do.
—Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene and The God Delusion
From his Foreward to the UK Edition

It’s a shame that not everyone in this country will read Sam Harris’ marvelous little book. They won’t, but they should.
— Leonard Susskind, Felix Bloch Professor in theoretical physics at Stanford University, author of The Cosmic Landscape

Sam Harris’s elegant little book is most refreshing and a wonderful source of ammunition for those who, like me, hold to no religious doctrine. Yet I have some sympathy also with those who might be worried by his uncompromising stance. Read it and form your own view, but do not ignore its message.
— Sir Roger Penrose, emeritus professor of mathematics at Oxford, author of The Road to Reality.

Reading Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation was like sitting ring side, cheering the champion, yelling “Yes!” at every jab. For those of us who feel depressed by this country’s ever increasing unification of church and state, and the ever decreasing support for the sciences that deliver knowledge and reduce ignorance, this little book is a welcome hit of adrenalin.
— Marc Hauser, Professor of Psychology, Biology. and Biological Anthropology at Harvard University, author of Moral Minds

If you believe in a religion, even the mildest form of Christianity, please read this book. It won’t take you long, but it might change your mind.
—Matt Ridley, author of Genome and Nature via Nurture

Sam Harris is a brave, intelligent, clear-sighted author whose brilliant essay should be read by every adult who has ever believed that a religious faith can solve the world’s problems.
—Desmond Morris, author of Peoplewatching and The Nature of Happiness

Sam Harris fearlessly describes a moral and intellectual emergency precipitated by religious fantasies. It is a relief that someone has spoken so frankly, with such passion yet such rationality. Now when the subject arises, as it inevitably does, I can simply say: Read Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation.
— Janna Levin, professor of astronomy and physics at Columbia University, author of How the Universe Got Its Spots and A Madman Dreams of Turing Machines

http://www.samharris.org/site/book_lett ... an_nation/

(I'm told that if you search for pdfdatabase and the name of the book, you may find it available online as a 29mb download)

Cheers,
Shafique



No I have not read that book. It sounds interesting. I will try to read it when I have the time.

But here you go again Shafique. You press your special “Escape” button :), and you immediately switch any discussion on Islam to Christianity.

Anyway, no one says that fundamentalism does not, also, exist in Christianity, Judaism and other faiths.

But in Islam, fundamentalism has taken different dimensions, and has become much more widespread. In addition, fundamentalists in Islam are much more powerful than fundamentalists in other faiths. In certain countries, they control how the entire society should live and influence most government decisions. In those countries, they also have power over the educational curriculum in all public schools. As such, the religious subjects take a big portion of the children’s time in school, at the expense of other (important) scientific and cultural subjects. Children are taught how to read and recite but not how to think, question and create. For example, in a neighboring country, no child can take music lessons in school and learn how to play musical instruments. Girls’ schools are not allowed to have gyms as there are no PE (Physical Education) classes for girls. Children are taught intolerance and hatred for other faiths. As you know, no churches or temples are allowed in that country, even though in early Islam, Jews and Moslems lived side by side in Medina (Mohammed’s neighbor was a Jew!!!) They unfairly force women to totally cover in black and prevent them from driving and working with other men….etc.

Fundamentalism needs to be combated by moderate Moslems for the good of all Moslems. We hear Islam is a tolerant religion and but that’s not what’s practiced by the fundamentalists. They need to revamp a lot of their views and practices (without having to comprise the basic tenets of their religion).

The Moslems constitute a major portion of the world’s population, but contribute very little to the human pool of knowledge, in science, technology, medicine, the arts….etc.

I know that the Moslems’ failures are not all attributed to religion, but as shown in the study I presented above, fundamentalism does hamper and curtail creativity, which is the main driving force for innovation and progress.


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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 03, 2010
Berrin wrote:
Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper
It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.


Before we can have substantial argument, you have to describe what exactly you understand from Fundamentalism...And how relative is this description to either Christian/Secular/Islamic thought.



Yes, fundamentalist nations, in the absence of creativity, cannot evolve (progress)intellectually , culturally and economically, and cannot prosper (be enriched) intellectually , culturally and economically.

Yes, fundamentalism kills creativity and innovation. Creativity is enhanced and motivated by proper education and by a proper conducive environment. The biggest example that comes to mind to show that fundamentalism kills creativity is when the Taliban shut down all girls schools and deprived all women of education. Also see my reply to Shafique above.

A mind that thinks creating music and sculptures is haram, and will send you to Hell, is obviously a mind that’s against creativity.


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Tom Jones
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 03, 2010
Tom Jones wrote:No I have not read that book. It sounds interesting. I will try to read it when I have the time.

But here you go again Shafique. You press your special “Escape” button :), and you immediately switch any discussion on Islam to Christianity.

Anyway, no one says that fundamentalism does not, also, exist in Christianity, Judaism and other faiths.


My point wasn't lost then. ;)


Tom Jones wrote:But in Islam, fundamentalism has taken different dimensions, and has become much more widespread.


Let's discuss further when you've read 'Letter to a Christian Nation'.

The 'fundamentalists' in Islam sure get a bigger press - but I don't agree they have a bigger influence over education than say the fundamentalists in the US. Take the debate over intelligent design vs evolution - which Islamic institution (in history, as well as now) denied scientific results. 'eh' can only dig up a Memri report which shows a Benny Hill character being ridiculed on a talk show ;).


Tom Jones wrote: In addition, fundamentalists in Islam are much more powerful than fundamentalists in other faiths. In certain countries, they control how the entire society should live and influence most government decisions.


I'd say the communists have more to answer than Islamists - North Korea today, Cambodia in the past and China since the revolution all spring to mind.

I'm with you on not agreeing with the Saudi regime - but they do a lot that is purely political rather than Islamic (eg stopping women driving).

Tom Jones wrote: In those countries, they also have power over the educational curriculum in all public schools. As such, the religious subjects take a big portion of the children’s time in school, at the expense of other (important) scientific and cultural subjects.


I refer you to the previous question, and comparison with the US curriculum. However, where education is compromised, this is indeed to be condemned.

Tom Jones wrote:Children are taught how to read and recite but not how to think, question and create. For example, in a neighboring country, no child can take music lessons in school and learn how to play musical instruments.


Which is a tragedy - that I agree with you. At the heart of Islam are God's words in the Quran which specifically exhort people to think, question and create. Professor Abdus Salam made a point of highlighting that there are more verses in the Quran telling Muslims to study nature than there are verses prescribing laws.

Tom Jones wrote:Girls’ schools are not allowed to have gyms as there are no PE (Physical Education) classes for girls. Children are taught intolerance and hatred for other faiths. As you know, no churches or temples are allowed in that country, even though in early Islam, Jews and Moslems lived side by side in Medina (Mohammed’s neighbor was a Jew!!!) They unfairly force women to totally cover in black and prevent them from driving and working with other men….etc.


And yet the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used to race his wife each year in a running race and when he hosted the Christian delegation from Najran, insisted they use his mosque in Medina to hold their Sunday service. Refer to my previous comment about Saudi practice and Islam. Look to Iran (another neighbour) for how women can and do operate in an Islamic society. Look to Malaysia and Indonesia - or perhaps even Bahrain where a Jewish woman is an ambassador for the country.

Tom Jones wrote:Fundamentalism needs to be combated by moderate Moslems for the good of all Moslems. We hear Islam is a tolerant religion and but that’s not what’s practiced by the fundamentalists. They need to revamp a lot of their views and practices (without having to comprise the basic tenets of their religion).


Well, thanks to 'eh' we're hearing more of these voices now - Quilliam is a good example.

The revamp is perhaps a re-emphasis of what the majority of Muslims practice and believe rather than the view that Wahabism or how the Taliban are portrayed is the norm.

Tom Jones wrote:The Moslems constitute a major portion of the world’s population, but contribute very little to the human pool of knowledge, in science, technology, medicine, the arts….etc.


True. Their time has come and waned - Greece once was a world power and isn't, so was Portugal and indeed Rome and Persia. At their hey day, all - including the Islamic empire - contributed vast amounts to knowledge of science etc. Whilst the Muslims held the baton, they increased the sum of human knowledge immeasurably - and without them the Renaisance wouldn't have happened.

Then again, we could point to other groups which have not contributed much to our 'western' body of knowledge lately. Most African nations, as well as Aborigines in Australia, Maoris, Inuit (although they have given us the words kayak and anorak), Filipinos, Balkans, Bolivians, Peruvians etc etc. ;)

But, here's a serious question - would you call the Dalai Lama a 'fundamentalist Buddhist' (I think I would). He is educated and eloquent. Buddhists also are numerous - but could it also not be argued that Tibetans haven't contributed much to knowledge, science etc recently?


Tom Jones wrote:I know that the Moslems’ failures are not all attributed to religion, but as shown in the study I presented above, fundamentalism does hamper and curtail creativity, which is the main driving force for innovation and progress.


On this point, I agree. The medieval inward looking Mullahism is indeed a throwback to Medieval Middle Age anti-science views that occured in all previous religions. The cycle is repeating itself - we're at the stage where those in religious power are using religion for political purposes and are on the defensive.

I'm not aware of a Muslim scientist being put in the position of Gallileo though - but rather of a self-destructive attitude among some that the Quran is all they need and that science is 'western' and evil. Fortunately this view is only held by a lunatic fringe, and are no different from those in the West who insist the earth really is only a few thousand years old and that evolution didn't happen, but that the universe was created in a few earth days.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Tom Jones wrote:[color=#0000FF][i]This is a letter by Robert Genn in an Artists’ Community Newsletter, in which he refers to an article written in Psychology Today titled "Can Fundamentalists be Creative?"

It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.

Countries that allow fundamentalism to flourish in their societies, esp. those in the Moslem world such as Iran, KSA, Pakistan..etc, should take heed. If they want their countries to advance in science, technology, art, …etc,, they should suppress fundamentalist thinking and open up to secular lateral thinking. In other words, to think “outside the box"!!!

TJ


Tom, did you read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"?

Max Weber there first suggested that cultural values could affect economic success, arguing that the Protestant Reformation led to values that drove people toward worldly achievements, a hard work ethic, and saving to accumulate wealth for investment.

The new religions (in particular, Calvinism and other more austere Protestant sects) effectively forbade wastefully using hard earned money and identified the purchase of luxuries a sin.

I don't know if similar concept exists in some branch of Islam or not.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
Tom Jones wrote:[color=#0000FF][i]This is a letter by Robert Genn in an Artists’ Community Newsletter, in which he refers to an article written in Psychology Today titled "Can Fundamentalists be Creative?"

It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.

Countries that allow fundamentalism to flourish in their societies, esp. those in the Moslem world such as Iran, KSA, Pakistan..etc, should take heed. If they want their countries to advance in science, technology, art, …etc,, they should suppress fundamentalist thinking and open up to secular lateral thinking. In other words, to think “outside the box"!!!

TJ


Tom, did you read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"?

Max Weber there first suggested that cultural values could affect economic success, arguing that the Protestant Reformation led to values that drove people toward worldly achievements, a hard work ethic, and saving to accumulate wealth for investment.

The new religions (in particular, Calvinism and other more austere Protestant sects) effectively forbade wastefully using hard earned money and identified the purchase of luxuries a sin.

I don't know if similar concept exists in some branch of Islam or not.



As far as I know, all major religions, from Buddism to Islam, encourage austerity and scorn greed and the pursuit of superfluous material goods.

There are passages in Quran and Hadith to that effect.

But that's the least of Islam’s problems, because that’s not practiced by most Moslems.

The most immediate problem facing Moslems and the world (for that matter) is the alarming growth of fundamentalism and extremism, esp. among the younger generation of Moslems.

This extremism is no longer limited to practices and lifestyles. It is gone as far as justifying the killing of innocent people, even fellow citizens like what’s happening in Iraq everyday, and like what happened in the Moscow metro recently. That’s a pretty scary stuff, Chief!!!


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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
shafique wrote:
Tom Jones wrote:No I have not read that book. It sounds interesting. I will try to read it when I have the time.

But here you go again Shafique. You press your special “Escape” button :), and you immediately switch any discussion on Islam to Christianity.

Anyway, no one says that fundamentalism does not, also, exist in Christianity, Judaism and other faiths.


My point wasn't lost then. ;)


Tom Jones wrote:But in Islam, fundamentalism has taken different dimensions, and has become much more widespread.


Let's discuss further when you've read 'Letter to a Christian Nation'.

The 'fundamentalists' in Islam sure get a bigger press - but I don't agree they have a bigger influence over education than say the fundamentalists in the US. Take the debate over intelligent design vs evolution - which Islamic institution (in history, as well as now) denied scientific results. 'eh' can only dig up a Memri report which shows a Benny Hill character being ridiculed on a talk show ;).


Tom Jones wrote: In addition, fundamentalists in Islam are much more powerful than fundamentalists in other faiths. In certain countries, they control how the entire society should live and influence most government decisions.


I'd say the communists have more to answer than Islamists - North Korea today, Cambodia in the past and China since the revolution all spring to mind.

I'm with you on not agreeing with the Saudi regime - but they do a lot that is purely political rather than Islamic (eg stopping women driving).

Tom Jones wrote: In those countries, they also have power over the educational curriculum in all public schools. As such, the religious subjects take a big portion of the children’s time in school, at the expense of other (important) scientific and cultural subjects.


I refer you to the previous question, and comparison with the US curriculum. However, where education is compromised, this is indeed to be condemned.

Tom Jones wrote:Children are taught how to read and recite but not how to think, question and create. For example, in a neighboring country, no child can take music lessons in school and learn how to play musical instruments.


Which is a tragedy - that I agree with you. At the heart of Islam are God's words in the Quran which specifically exhort people to think, question and create. Professor Abdus Salam made a point of highlighting that there are more verses in the Quran telling Muslims to study nature than there are verses prescribing laws.

Tom Jones wrote:Girls’ schools are not allowed to have gyms as there are no PE (Physical Education) classes for girls. Children are taught intolerance and hatred for other faiths. As you know, no churches or temples are allowed in that country, even though in early Islam, Jews and Moslems lived side by side in Medina (Mohammed’s neighbor was a Jew!!!) They unfairly force women to totally cover in black and prevent them from driving and working with other men….etc.


And yet the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used to race his wife each year in a running race and when he hosted the Christian delegation from Najran, insisted they use his mosque in Medina to hold their Sunday service. Refer to my previous comment about Saudi practice and Islam. Look to Iran (another neighbour) for how women can and do operate in an Islamic society. Look to Malaysia and Indonesia - or perhaps even Bahrain where a Jewish woman is an ambassador for the country.

Tom Jones wrote:Fundamentalism needs to be combated by moderate Moslems for the good of all Moslems. We hear Islam is a tolerant religion and but that’s not what’s practiced by the fundamentalists. They need to revamp a lot of their views and practices (without having to comprise the basic tenets of their religion).


Well, thanks to 'eh' we're hearing more of these voices now - Quilliam is a good example.

The revamp is perhaps a re-emphasis of what the majority of Muslims practice and believe rather than the view that Wahabism or how the Taliban are portrayed is the norm.

Tom Jones wrote:The Moslems constitute a major portion of the world’s population, but contribute very little to the human pool of knowledge, in science, technology, medicine, the arts….etc.


True. Their time has come and waned - Greece once was a world power and isn't, so was Portugal and indeed Rome and Persia. At their hey day, all - including the Islamic empire - contributed vast amounts to knowledge of science etc. Whilst the Muslims held the baton, they increased the sum of human knowledge immeasurably - and without them the Renaisance wouldn't have happened.

Then again, we could point to other groups which have not contributed much to our 'western' body of knowledge lately. Most African nations, as well as Aborigines in Australia, Maoris, Inuit (although they have given us the words kayak and anorak), Filipinos, Balkans, Bolivians, Peruvians etc etc. ;)

But, here's a serious question - would you call the Dalai Lama a 'fundamentalist Buddhist' (I think I would). He is educated and eloquent. Buddhists also are numerous - but could it also not be argued that Tibetans haven't contributed much to knowledge, science etc recently?


Tom Jones wrote:I know that the Moslems’ failures are not all attributed to religion, but as shown in the study I presented above, fundamentalism does hamper and curtail creativity, which is the main driving force for innovation and progress.


On this point, I agree. The medieval inward looking Mullahism is indeed a throwback to Medieval Middle Age anti-science views that occured in all previous religions. The cycle is repeating itself - we're at the stage where those in religious power are using religion for political purposes and are on the defensive.

I'm not aware of a Muslim scientist being put in the position of Gallileo though - but rather of a self-destructive attitude among some that the Quran is all they need and that science is 'western' and evil. Fortunately this view is only held by a lunatic fringe, and are no different from those in the West who insist the earth really is only a few thousand years old and that evolution didn't happen, but that the universe was created in a few earth days.

Cheers,
Shafique

8) 8)



Shafique,

You still keep trying to divert the discussion to Christianity and other non Moslem countries and civilizations, but then I expected you to do that.

I don’t agree with 2 or 3 of your points, but I will not make any comment on them because that will surely takes us off topic.

Anyway, thanks for your unemotional and civil style of dialogue. I usually don’t like to discuss any religious issues with Moslems because they invariably get too emotional and, instead of addressing the issue at hand, they start accusing me of horrible things. But you’re OK, Shaf, even though it is hard to pin you down on any point as you keep diverting the conversation to other directions.

You make a good politician, Buddy!!! :lol:

Cheers!!


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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Once we establish the context, you'll probably find I agree more than I disagree.

The examples you give are indeed instances that I too disagree with and agree are bad - and I've pointed out that Wahabism/Talibanism are actually aberrations of Islam, rather than representative of what Islam teaches.

My view is that the dynamics of empire and ebb and flow of political power are being conflated (one of 'eh's' favourite words) with the religion of the earlier empire.

The dynamism the original article is saying is being stifled by today's fundamentalism was indeed present at the height of the Islamic golden age, when religion was not a hindrance to 'thinking outside the box' or science in general. Even music was encouraged and developed - as also other arts, such as poetry, literature and the now almost forgotten art of using scents in horticulture (eg the Mughals had fabulous gardens which not only looked like paradise, but had different scents during different times of the day etc.

The inward navel-gazing going on with some Mullah societies is a-typical of Islam over the ages and even today only the minority of Muslims live under or agree with these medieval views.


However, I did feel the need to point out that Islamic mullahs don't have the monopoly of extremist views or even being anti-science - to this day.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Tom Jones wrote:
Red Chief wrote:
Tom Jones wrote:[color=#0000FF][i]This is a letter by Robert Genn in an Artists’ Community Newsletter, in which he refers to an article written in Psychology Today titled "Can Fundamentalists be Creative?"

It is really amazing how fundamentalism can kill creativity.

Countries that allow fundamentalism to flourish in their societies, esp. those in the Moslem world such as Iran, KSA, Pakistan..etc, should take heed. If they want their countries to advance in science, technology, art, …etc,, they should suppress fundamentalist thinking and open up to secular lateral thinking. In other words, to think “outside the box"!!!

TJ


Tom, did you read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"?

Max Weber there first suggested that cultural values could affect economic success, arguing that the Protestant Reformation led to values that drove people toward worldly achievements, a hard work ethic, and saving to accumulate wealth for investment.

The new religions (in particular, Calvinism and other more austere Protestant sects) effectively forbade wastefully using hard earned money and identified the purchase of luxuries a sin.

I don't know if similar concept exists in some branch of Islam or not.



As far as I know, all major religions, from Buddism to Islam, encourage austerity and scorn greed and the pursuit of superfluous material goods.

There are passages in Quran and Hadith to that effect.


You didn't read the book, did you?
Red Chief
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
You didn't read the book, did you?



Sorry Chief, forgot to answer your question.

No I have not read that book. I’ll try to find it, and add reading it to my-to-do list!!!!


8) 8)
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
He-he,

I asked the question because I don't believe in export of ideology, both socialism or capitalism. The importer will always be far behind the exporter using the old dirty technologies and corrupted lifestyle.

Each nation should find its own way using own virtues in the modern world like Japan did after WWII.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 04, 2010
Red Chief wrote:He-he,

I asked the question because I don't believe in export of ideology, both socialism or capitalism. The importer will always be far behind the exporter using the old dirty technologies and corrupted lifestyle.

Each nation should find its own way using own virtues in the modern world like Japan did after WWII.



I’m not sure what you’re trying to say Chief. Our topic is about the detrimental effect of fundamentalism on nations and societies.

I don’t see the connection.

You’re speaking of importing political ideologies and the ensuing bad technologies???!!

Yes I agree. All ideologies and doctrines (political, philosophical or religious) should not be imported by any society, even the seemingly good ones.

You are also right about the other point. Importing useful knowledge (including science, technology) and importing the tools needed to implement such knowledge should be made from the best available sources, wherever they are. No one can disagree with that.


8) 8)
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
shafique wrote:And yet the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used to race his wife each year in a running race and when he hosted the Christian delegation from Najran, insisted they use his mosque in Medina to hold their Sunday service. Refer to my previous comment about Saudi practice and Islam. Look to Iran (another neighbour) for how women can and do operate in an Islamic society. Look to Malaysia and Indonesia - or perhaps even Bahrain where a Jewish woman is an ambassador for the country.


See, Tom. Shafique has just explained to you just how tolerant Muslims are. And, shafique is correct that one should refer to the Koran and hadiths to truly appreciate the tolerance in Islam.

Koran 9:17-18:

The idolaters have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness to unbelief against themselves, these it is whose doings are null, and in the fire shall they abide.


Koran 8:55

Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are the unbelievers, who will not believe,


Koran 98:6

The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be in the Fire of Gehenna, therein dwelling forever; those are the worst of creatures.


Ooooh. Aren't you just bowled over by that tolerance, Tom?

Or from the hadith:

Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, "Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them." I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, 'It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yama-ma and Yemen." Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.") - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288


Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' " - Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.17


Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Two deens shall not co-exist in the Arabian Peninsula."

Malik said that Ibn Shihab said, ''Umar ibn al-Khattab searched for information about that until he was absolutely convinced that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, had said, 'Two deens shall not co-exist in the Arabian Peninsula,' and he therefore expelled the jews from Khaybar." - Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.18


Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: people of two different religions would not inherit from one another. - Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 18, Number 2905


t has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. - Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366


If that tolerance gets to be too much, just say so, so I won't go ahead and post those tolerant passages in the Koran calling for violence against disbelievers.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
True. Their time has come and waned - Greece once was a world power and isn't, so was Portugal and indeed Rome and Persia. At their hey day, all - including the Islamic empire - contributed vast amounts to knowledge of science etc. Whilst the Muslims held the baton, they increased the sum of human knowledge immeasurably - and without them the Renaisance wouldn't have happened.


Care show how the Renaissance wouldn't have happened in the West without the Muslims?
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
shafique wrote:The 'fundamentalists' in Islam sure get a bigger press - but I don't agree they have a bigger influence over education than say the fundamentalists in the US. Take the debate over intelligent design vs evolution - which Islamic institution (in history, as well as now) denied scientific results. 'eh' can only dig up a Memri report which shows a Benny Hill character being ridiculed on a talk show


How about Saudi Arabia, for starters.

I also know that universities in the Islamic world teach that the human body has a certain amount of human bones based on a hadith from Muhammad - never mind that this number contradicts the universally accepted number of bones in the human body (or was it joints?).

Oh, and we don't want to go into other areas, such as teaching that humans evolved from lower primates - I think that would just be too embarrassing for you.

Of course, in the Islamic world, Muslims are devoting much of their time to how the Koran is 'perfectly' compatible with science. Accept, that such an endeavor is entirely absurd for a Westerner (Tom will probably tell you the same). That, and the Koran is scientifically wrong in a number of verses - such as claiming the moon was split in two, that humans did not evolve from lower animals, that allah designed all the animals, or that Noah lived to be more than 950 years of age.

Needless to say, these ideas are accepted as truths in even the highest echelons of learning in the Muslim world.

But yeah, otherwise, if you ignore the fact that most Muslim majority nations do not have a clear separation between religion and state (unlike the West, both officially and unofficially with regards to the population at large), Islamic fanaticism is totally comparable to 'Christian' fanaticism.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
^'eh' - have you read 'A letter to a Christian Nation' ?

It's aimed at people who hold the extremist views you espouse - like it is ok to slaughter people and enslave virgins as long as 'God tells' you to do it.

If not, let me know and I'll happily serialise it for you in the religion section.


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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
I can only imagine what Sam Harris thinks of how a fundamentalist Muslim is using his book as an attack against Christians.

The funny thing is, is that Harris might criticize elements of Christianity or Christians, but he agrees with Tom Jones and myself that the Muslim world is rife with fanaticism and militancy - far more than in the West or in 'Christian' majority nations.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
You could have just said 'no I haven't read the book'.

But I'm not surprised that you're resorting to fantasising about what might be in the book. ;)

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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
Interesting article from wikipedia about Harris' beliefs regarding Islam:

While Harris criticizes all religions, he asserts that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilization.[14] Harris criticizes the general response in the West to terrorist atrocities such as the 9/11 attacks, i.e. the response of pronouncing Islam a "religion of peace" while simultaneously declaring a "war on 'terrorism'." Harris sees the first sentiment as demonstrably false, and the second as meaningless.[7]p. 31, p. 28.

Instead, he asks for an acknowledgment that Western civilization is at war with Islam, which, he maintains, preaches a doctrine of religious and political subjugation, not a message of peace. He observes that the Koran and the hadith contain incitements to kill infidels and reward such actions with Paradise (including 72 virgins). Harris considers jihad, which he calls "metaphysics of martyrdom", as taking the "sting out of death" and a source of peril. He rejects arguments that suggest such behavior is a result of extremist Muslims, not mainstream ones. He argues that the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy erupted not because the cartoons were derogatory but because "most Muslims believe that it is a sacrilege to depict Muhammad at all."[15] Harris maintains that the West is at war with "precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of the hadith."[7]pp. 109-110.

Harris acknowledges that religions other than Islam can inspire, and have inspired, atrocities. In The End of Faith, he discusses examples such as the Inquisition and witch hunts. However, Harris believes that Islam is better suited to this purpose than most other religions. He summed up this argument in a 2005 blog post:

Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Why are there no Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence.[14]

Harris has called upon Muslim communities to practice open criticism of their faith and to offer assistance to Western governments in locating the religious extremists among them. He has argued that Muslims must be prepared to accept ethnic profiling as a tool in the fight against terrorism, if it can be shown that adherence to Islam is a statistical predictor of terrorist behavior.[14]
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
Excellent - I look forward to reading your comments on Harris' views about Christianity then.

You seem to agree with his views about Islam.

event horizon wrote:Harris has called upon Muslim communities to practice open criticism of their faith and to offer assistance to Western governments in locating the religious extremists among them. He has argued that Muslims must be prepared to accept ethnic profiling as a tool in the fight against terrorism, if it can be shown that adherence to Islam is a statistical predictor of terrorist behavior.[14]


Can't disagree with him on that. In fact, your quoting of Quilliam is indeed an indication that Muslims agree with him.

If the statistics show that ethnic profiling is justified, I'm all for it. I just feel sorry for all those Nigerians who are having their underwear checked right now! ;)

Let me know what you disagree with him about. (Note that 'Letter to a Christian Nation' is quite short, so it should be possible for you to read it in full)

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Shafique
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
I also agree with the underlined and highlighted bits as well.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
I know you do.

I look forward to hearing your comments about what Harris says in 'Letter to a Christian Nation' - although I suspect I'm in for another long wait and obfuscation. ;)

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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
Tom Jones wrote:I’m not sure what you’re trying to say Chief. Our topic is about the detrimental effect of fundamentalism on nations and societies.

Tom, I am sorry. Did you call the Fundamentalist Nations the countries (Afghanistan, Iraq), which under occupation and "govern" by puppet regimes or under strickt US sanctions and faced constant threat from the superpower (Iran)?

I think those countries are deciding another issues now and somebody made them from outside.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
It seems fundamentalists avoid the psychological pain brought about by examining the outside world and tend not to allow themselves bouts of divergent reasoning.

It's almost like there are two main kinds of people--those who are curious, challenging, inventive and creative, and those who rely on some sort of dogma to make sense of their world. Studies show that creative thinking takes place at the front of the cortex, while further back the brain seems to be more submissive and gullible. To its credit, this back area also features more stable and defensive thinking, and may represent a hangover from primitive times when fear was more in your face.

One of the more controversial findings of these studies is that religious fundamentalism may permanently damage the growth of a child's brain. The thinking goes like this: People with physical damage to their frontal cortex from an accident or medical issues tend to perform poorly in creative thinking. The underutilization of this area, particularly in early life, seems also to impede its proper development and stunt the growth of creativity. In short, fundamentalists may have trouble thinking outside the box.


I've been saying this all along! :lol:

And I have to say, that E.H. is doing an outstanding job again in showing the facts, while Shafique is beating around the bush again in an effort to bolster the back of the Persian rug. :mrgreen:

I start to think that Shafique is a dangerous man. A deluding intellectual in society. A nice man though. :wink:

Nice topic Jonesy.
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
:mrgreen:

Armed and dangerous.

Robby - would you care to step in and enlighten young eh about the Renaissance?
(you may want to quote from http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html ;) )

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Shafique
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
LoL, but Shaf, that was BEFORE Islam turned backwards and started bombing other value systems. :wink:
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
Hey, the Mullahs and eh turned backwards, not Islam ;)

And, by 'value systems' don't you mean 'occupying powers'? :mrgreen:
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Re: Why Fundamentalist Nations Cannot Evolve and Prosper!!!! Apr 05, 2010
shafique wrote::mrgreen:

Armed and dangerous.

Robby - would you care to step in and enlighten young eh about the Renaissance?
(you may want to quote from http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html ;) )

Cheers,
Shafique

He-he,
One English gent (former submariner :wink: ) wrote in "1434" that Renessance was ignited by Chenese.

Shafique, pls. bear in mind that in Mediavael time there was not only Cordoba but a relatively big settlement Constantinopolis, which was affected by the Forth Crusade. After that European learnt about Plato and many other Greek chaps.
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