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shafique wrote::mrgreen:

Armed and dangerous.

Robby - would you care to step in and enlighten young eh about the Renaissance?
(you may want to quote from http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html )

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm well aware that Aristotle and other Greek thinkers were being translated at Mont-Saint Michel before Christians liberated the Iberian peninsula from Moorish occupation.

It seems that it is you who is laboring under the neo-Orientalist belief (Edward Said, etc) that Greek philosophy and thought were brought to the Europeans via the Muslims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/28/world ... 98698.html

*yawn*

RobbyG wrote:
I've been saying this all along!

And I have to say, that E.H. is doing an outstanding job again in showing the facts, while Shafique is beating around the bush again in an effort to bolster the back of the Persian rug.

I start to think that Shafique is a dangerous man. A deluding intellectual in society. A nice man though.

Nice topic Jonesy.

But Robby, let's try and be fair. People in the West can also be locked up for kissing in public or texting dirty messages.

Happens all the time here in the US, where we have Biblical laws to govern our way of life.

Just the other day, a man was sentenced for beheading in California for predicting who would win next year's superbowl.

What are you, some kind of Islamophobe for claiming that religious fundamentalism is more established in Muslim countries and communities than Christian fundamentalism is in the West?

What about Baruch Goldstein?!

Crusades?!

TVengelists?!

Oh my!

event horizon wrote:
I'm well aware that Aristotle and other Greek thinkers were being translated at Mont-Saint Michel before Christians liberated the Iberian peninsula from Moorish occupation.

*yawn*

Yawn indeed.

You shouldn't believe all the information in the 'I spy book of Orientalist history' eh. Next you'll be telling us that Avicenna was actually a trappist monk!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

event horizon wrote:
I'm well aware that Aristotle and other Greek thinkers were being translated at Mont-Saint Michel before Christians liberated the Iberian peninsula from Moorish occupation.

*yawn*

Yawn indeed.

You shouldn't believe all the information in the 'I spy book of Orientalist history' eh. Next you'll be telling us that Avicenna was actually a trappist monk!

Cheers,
Shafique

Good refutation.

I almost heard your thumping the backspace button after you realized you couldn't respond to what was actually said.

Thanks - I thought it was good too.

I always had you down for a Yank kid, but when you start quoting a Frenchman's theory - I have to revise my supposition (and your recent trend to quote Muslim think tanks is a bit off putting as well).

Anyway - here's a balanced critique of the Mont St Michel / Aristotle debacle by Professor Charles Burnett :

http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=1083

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Hey, the Mullahs and eh turned backwards, not Islam

And, by 'value systems' don't you mean 'occupying powers'?

Mullahs, Monk(ey)s whateva. Its the substance they preach that makes people a herd-like culture of bacteria. Lemmings anyone?

Lemmings/herd-like behaviour indeed come to mind when I think of the World Wars which started in Europe.

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:I’m not sure what you’re trying to say Chief. Our topic is about the detrimental effect of fundamentalism on nations and societies.

Tom, I am sorry. Did you call the Fundamentalist Nations the countries (Afghanistan, Iraq), which under occupation and "govern" by puppet regimes or under strickt US sanctions and faced constant threat from the superpower (Iran)?

I think those countries are deciding another issues now and somebody made them from outside.

First, I never called Iraq and Afghanistan fundamentalist nations, although components of their societies are definitely fundamentalists.

Yes, I’ve heard that a lot about the US. The US is the Great Satan, who’s responsible for all the evils in the world. What else is new????

Give me a break man!!!

shafique wrote:Lemmings/herd-like behaviour indeed come to mind when I think of the World Wars which started in Europe.

Cheers,
Shafique

Exactly, so why fall for it once more albeit in a different disguise! Not me!

I calculated you smarter Shaffy!

^on this point, I agree with you Robby! [serious]

Religion to manipulate the masses to suspend logic is just as bad as Fascism used to manipulate the masses to suspend logic.

I mean, some people here use a book to condone the killing of civilians and enslavement of virgins!

Cheers,
Shafique

Tom Jones wrote:Yes, I’ve heard that a lot about the US. The US is the Great Satan, who’s responsible for all the evils in the world. What else is new????

Give me a break man!!!

Excuse me Tom but I cannot use such a loud name for the not so Great any more Britain.

Tom Jones wrote:Yes, I’ve heard that a lot about the US. The US is the Great Satan, who’s responsible for all the evils in the world. What else is new????

Just a quick aside. The term 'Great Satan' is misunderstood in the West - because the concept of Satan in Christianity (and hence popular culture) is a being that is pure evil.

Satan in Islam is the one who tempts - whispers in your ear attracting you to something that is ultimately detrimental to you. What we (in the West) would refer to our our 'internal demons' or 'devil within' - is referred to as 'Shaitan' - i.e. Satan - in Islamic theology.

Therefore the 'Great Satan' is understood in this context and not necessarily as the horned devil of western culture.


Now let's see whether eh starts arguing that the Taj Mahal was actually a Hindu temple and not built by Muslims after all:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/tejo.html


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:Yes, I’ve heard that a lot about the US. The US is the Great Satan, who’s responsible for all the evils in the world. What else is new????

Just a quick aside. The term 'Great Satan' is misunderstood in the West - because the concept of Satan in Christianity (and hence popular culture) is a being that is pure evil.

Satan in Islam is the one who tempts - whispers in your ear attracting you to something that is ultimately detrimental to you. What we (in the West) would refer to our our 'internal demons' or 'devil within' - is referred to as 'Shaitan' - i.e. Satan - in Islamic theology.

Therefore the 'Great Satan' is understood in this context and not necessarily as the horned devil of western culture.


Now let's see whether eh starts arguing that the Taj Mahal was actually a Hindu temple and not built by Muslims after all:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/tejo.html


Cheers,
Shafique

Hello Shafique,

You said Satan whispers in one’s ear to do bad things!

Does he (or she) whisper only to Moslems, because I have never heard any voice (of a non-person) whispering in my ear to do anything???

As a Moslem, have you ever heard such whispers???

Just curious!!!!

Always Look On The Bright Side of Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ&NR=1

Tom Jones wrote:You said Satan whispers in one’s ear to do bad things!

Figurately speaking - yes. A bit like Jiminy Cricket's evil twin.

Tom Jones wrote:Does he (or she) whisper only to Moslems, because I have never heard any voice (of a non-person) whispering in my ear to do anything???

Really? You've never been tempted to do something that you knew was wrong and had an internal conversation?

Tom Jones wrote:As a Moslem, have you ever heard such whispers???

Just curious!!!!

'I hear dead people'... oops, should that be 'I see tali-tubbies'?




[/quote]

shafique wrote:Thanks - I thought it was good too.

I always had you down for a Yank kid, but when you start quoting a Frenchman's theory - I have to revise my supposition (and your recent trend to quote Muslim think tanks is a bit off putting as well).

Anyway - here's a balanced critique of the Mont St Michel / Aristotle debacle by Professor Charles Burnett :

http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=1083

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I agree with your author's conclusion in the end stating that Aristotle was indeed translated in France before the Iberian peninsula was liberated.

Your author goes into quips of how paper was introduced into Europe vis-avis the Muslims while admitting that it was the Chinese who were the inventors of paper! LoL!

Apparently, if it wasn't for the Muslims, the Europeans never would have had paper from, you know, the Romans or anything.

I also agree that it was Christians before and after the Muslim conquests who were the main translators of Greek into Syriac and Arabic. But again, as with the invention of paper, the author fails to understand that these works would have diffused into Europe via the Byzantine empire if they were not conquered by the Muslims.

Indeed, I would imagine that many Eastern inventions crossed into Europe by first entering the Byzantine empire.

But I'm glad we both agree with my original premise. Thank you for your article confirming what I had previously said.

Well, if you agree with Professor Burnett's conclusions - I guess I was being a bit uncharitable to link you with other crackpots who believe that the Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu Temple because they are extreme in their Islamophobia.

Prof Burnett is quite clear that Gougenheim is wrong in his conclusions - and he makes the point that 40 scholars endorsed and article rubbishing his views, and 56 researchers all ridiculed Gougenheim's theory in 2008 in an article entitled 'Yes, the Christian West is in debt to the Islamic world' (the title says it all).

But most damning is section 3 of the article - 'academic evaluation' - where he undermines exactly the point you think we agree on - the translations Gougenheim thinks took place before the Arabic translations, weren't!


Better luck next time dear 'eh'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, perhaps you didn't read the NY times piece quoting academic journals and respected newspapers, such as Le monde, that had highly endorsed the the professor's book?

Le monde and other papers/journals actually read the book. From reading the article, it seems that the researchers simply signed the copy without having read the book or addressing any specific allegation that the professor's book makes.

As I said, I agree with your author's own conclusions that Aristotle was actively sought out by the Europeans before anyone in Spain had translated Aristotle from Arabic into any European language - the monks in France were translating Aristotle from Greek into Latin.

And I also agree with you that (and here is the kicker) the works of the ancient Greeks were introduced to the Muslims through the Christians. It was Christians who were the translators of Greek work into Arabic and Syriac, not the Muslims. This was done before and after the conquests, as well.

So, you should have actually said that Islamic civilization is indebted to the Christians and the layer of Hellenistic learning in the Christian world a thousand years thick at the time of the Muslim conquests.

Nope, try again.

I did indeed read the whole of the NY times article which reported about the claims when the book came out.

I also read and quoted above what the Prof Burnett's long analysis of the claims were.

He showed that it was another case of All Mouth, No Trousers. Perhaps that is why you were attracted to the theory?

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok - so you disagree that Hellenistic learning was introduced to the Muslims by the natives they had conquered (and conveniently translated from Greek to Syrian and Arabic by Christian writers) and that the Europeans already were in possession of Greek works before the Christians had liberated Spain from Muslim occupation?

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:You said Satan whispers in one’s ear to do bad things!

Figurately speaking - yes. A bit like Jiminy Cricket's evil twin.

Tom Jones wrote:Does he (or she) whisper only to Moslems, because I have never heard any voice (of a non-person) whispering in my ear to do anything???

Really? You've never been tempted to do something that you knew was wrong and had an internal conversation?

Tom Jones wrote:As a Moslem, have you ever heard such whispers???

Just curious!!!!

'I hear dead people'... oops, should that be 'I see tali-tubbies'?

Sure, everyone experiences temptations to do bad things every now and then, but that’s all done mentally (internally), without voices or whispers.

A lot of people think Satan, or the Devil, gets inside their head and bring these bad thoughts to them -- which is hard for me to comprehend.

Some people in the West sometimes say, “The Devil made me do it.” EH may remember Flip Wilson who coined this phrase on his TV show!!!

But the concept of Satan actually (not figuratively) whispering in your ear, or eating with you, or getting (swimming) in your semen, or spitting in your ear as many Moslems believe… is even much harder for me to believe.

event horizon wrote:

RobbyG wrote:
I've been saying this all along!

And I have to say, that E.H. is doing an outstanding job again in showing the facts, while Shafique is beating around the bush again in an effort to bolster the back of the Persian rug.

I start to think that Shafique is a dangerous man. A deluding intellectual in society. A nice man though.

Nice topic Jonesy.

But Robby, let's try and be fair. People in the West can also be locked up for kissing in public or texting dirty messages.

Happens all the time here in the US, where we have Biblical laws to govern our way of life.

Just the other day, a man was sentenced for beheading in California for predicting who would win next year's superbowl.

What are you, some kind of Islamophobe for claiming that religious fundamentalism is more established in Muslim countries and communities than Christian fundamentalism is in the West?

What about Baruch Goldstein?!

Crusades?!

TVengelists?!

Oh my!

Hallelujah….!!!

That’s too funny…EH!!!

I had a chuckle too.

Tom Jones wrote:Sure, everyone experiences temptations to do bad things every now and then, but that’s all done mentally (internally), without voices or whispers.

Yes. Exactly - the internal voice is what is called 'shaitan' in Islam.

The theology of Islam (which is similar to concepts in Taoism, Buddhism etc) is that one trains one's mental faculties so that we recognise this inner voice and over-ride it.

There is a Hadith where the Prophet, pbuh, is asked whether he too has an inner 'Shaitan' - he answered yes, but that he was now a Muslim (i.e. his inner voice had completely submitted to the will of God and no longer incited to evil).

Tom Jones wrote:A lot of people think Satan, or the Devil, gets inside their head and bring these bad thoughts to them -- which is hard for me to comprehend.

Well, that's because you are still equating the Christian concept of Satan with what Muslims understand Satan to be. I've been trying to tell you that the two are different. In Islam, Satan is the tempter - not the evil demon who has a pitchfork and horns.

What you rightly say is common to all of us - that voice/feeling that tempts us to do what we know in our hearts is wrong, that is what in Islam is called 'satan'.

The people who use the Western concept of Satan when they say 'the devil made me do it' aren't using the term in the Islamic sense. Everyone who does wrong, in Islam, is following the voice of their inner 'shaitan', by definition - and therefore it is not an excuse that is found in Islam - if you follow Shaitan, you are responsible. (As an aside, mental illness that means one is not aware of good and bad does not mean you are evil - even though some religious people view mental illness as a sign of possession)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Ok - so you disagree that Hellenistic learning was introduced to the Muslims by the natives they had conquered (and conveniently translated from Greek to Syrian and Arabic by Christian writers) and that the Europeans already were in possession of Greek works before the Christians had liberated Spain from Muslim occupation?

I agree with Prof Burnett - absolutely the Islamic conquers did take what was already common knowledge from those conquered - but you seem to be labouring under the impression that his article doesn't debunk your theory about transmission of Greek/Hellenistic knowledge didn't come through Arabic translations.

He points out that +some+ of Aristotle's work had been translated - but that what unlocked the meanings of these selected works only came from the Arabic translations. (And let's not overlook the mistakes in dates your 'expert' made, the fact he ignores the fields of science etc etc)

I therefore agree totally with the 40 scholars and 56 researchers etc who rejected (in a scholarly way) the theory you desperately want to believe is fact.

Cheers,
Shafique