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Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Chocoholic wrote:Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Thanks, that is what I thought. Would be pretty hard to estimate how many to expect.

Chocs - ok, I see your point. Migrantwatch's estimates of illegal immigrants are indeed greatly in excess of the previous ones. They are still estimates though and my other points still apply - that the drain on resources etc are actually a feature of legal migrants who have rights to stay in the UK, and that the bulk of illegals are actually anglo-saxon ex-colonials, and migrants are predominantly Europeans who have every right to be in the UK.

The headlines are sensationalist (and arguably so is migrantwatch's agenda) - the reality is often over-blown. This is most evident in the case of asylum seekers and the barely disguised racism that surrounds that issue.

But as I said, I'm grateful to the link to migrantwatch's survey and stand corrected in misinterpreting what you wrote (I thought you were referring to projections of illegal immigrants, rather than an estimate of current numbers).

Cheers,
Shafique

I read the original article this thread refers to (even though its about hung politicians!) and the family in question were white Anglo Saxon Christian. From Croatia. Living in Peterborough.

This has nothing to with race, colour or creed, it is simply the point that the number of 'freeloaders' who see the UK as just a giant jamboree to get something for nothing, a thing they can never get in their own country, is far greater than any official figures claim.

As for Brits living and working in France or Spain: you are subject to tax in those countries at their prevailing rate, the same as any European national. If you repatriate those funds, then it is taxed in the UK as well. If you buy property in continental Europe, you pay the same taxes and dues as the locals. The system is fair and we are bound by it.



Knight

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm all for getting rid of free loaders. I totally agree that it is an issue that transcends colour and creed. I'm an equal opportunity nationalist - kick out the main body of culprits first and you can get some English kids working bars again and off the streets..

I also agree with DK - those legal expats in Spain etc are as legal as those coming to the UK - all pay taxes and are entitled to the benefits, and should be distinguished from 'freeloaders'.

Now, remind me again what proportion of those on benefits are here illegally?

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocs' link that previous estimates of illegal immigrants are an underestimate got me thinking. There have been studies estimating the benefits that an amnesty of illegals will bring to the UK, but these were based on lower estimates than the 1m in the migrantwatch survey. Ergo - more illegal immigrants, the more benefits.

Immigration: The facts we are never told

* There are between 310,000 and 570,000 illegal immigrants in the UK, according to Home Office estimates
* If allowed to live legally, they would pay more than £1bn in tax each year
* Deporting them would cost £4.7bn and leave acute shortages of cleaners, care workers and hotel staff cIf allowed to stay, the net benefit of nearly £6bn would pay for 300 new schools, 12 district hospitals or 200,000 new nurses
* Nearly 50% of foreign-born immigrants leave Britain within five years
* Migrants fill 90% of low-paid jobs in London and account for 29% of the capital's workforce. London is the UK's fastest-growing region
* Legal migrants comprise 8.7% of the population, but contribute 10.2% of all taxes. Each immigrant pays an average of £7,203 in tax, compared with £6,861 for non-migrant workers
* There were 25,715 people claiming asylum last year. If allowed to work, they would generate £123m for the Treasury

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/amnesty-on-illegal-immigrants-is-worth-1636bn-to-uk-472164.html
(From a 2006 report)

So, perhaps Clegg has a point after all?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Well, that's EU laws for you. Brits can go and live in the South of France and use the medical facilities etc there, the wives of Danish citizens can claim benefits anywhere in the EU..

Would the Mail kick up a fuss if the couple were blond, blue-eyed Danes? Perhaps, perhaps not.

The judges at the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg said Mrs Ibrahim must be given a home because 'a parent caring for the child of a migrant worker who is in education in the host member state has a right of residence in that state'.

'That right is not conditional on the parent having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system.'

The whole system sucks. The EU sucks, our immigration policy sucks, the court of human rights sucks. Tell you what Shaf, the Poles have in sussed in my part of the country. They come over, work for minimum wage or cash in hand, apply for social housing, live in it for 2 years then buy it back off the council at stupidly discounted rates.

In the meantime they and nearly every other able bodied "european" continues to bleed our benefits system dry. If anyone can name another european country that is as generous as the UK in terms of handing out state benefits then i would be most interested. This obviously has to include all benefits and those in kind, like free use of the best medical facilites in the world, child allowance, working and tax credits, cut price housing, income support and council tax benefit etc.

Then we have every iraquie/algerian and turk coming in by the lorry load claiming asylum and thats on top of every other nationality that see's the UK as a soft touch coming in by air after flushing their passport down the toilet.

I tell you all what the UAE has immigration sussed and is spot on. You come here TO WORK, you get no benefits and if you dont like it then Sod off - Sorted. Or If you come in by air you go back to where he or she came from. But there again i doubt anyone claim's asylum in the UAE because the work is out the UK has a free for all policy.

Like Chocs pointed out Enoch Powell predicted all this and he was right.

Hey arnie - I hear you.

I know many people who seek asylum in Germany, get approved, live and work there for a few years and then come to the UK. When they arrive they know how to milk the system for what it's worth - they have local councils paying their rent in houses in leafy Surrey. I didn't know you could do that - but they know the system.

The opportunities for making money in the UK are better than other countries (who have better medical facilities and education - don't kid yourself that they come for this) and they are following the money.

Powell was wrong in my opinion - he was no different from the Brits who railed against the Hugeonots, the Irish, the Jews, the West Indians, the Ugandan Indians, the Bangladeshis, the Pakistanis etc etc. Now it is the Poles and other Eastern Europeans and the Nigerians. If you study history, you'll realise that the Celts railed against the Germanic Angles and Saxons, who in turn railed against the Normans - and lets not forget the Romans and Vikings.

As the good book says, there's nothing new under the sun.

Edit:

England once colonized much of the developing world, refused to integrate with the locals, treated the natives as inferiors, stole much of their wealth, and with much pride and arrogance beat into the locals the notion that all things English incl. the language are superior to their own language and culture. Look at the Indians. Even today they take pride in being able to speak ENGLISH well instead of their own language, and prize fair skin far above their own darker skin. As far as I'm concern, England now being swallowed whole by immigration is poetic justice. It is simply being reverse colonized by its former colonies. Reap what you sow England!

(A comment made on The Economist web site.. I think he makes a good point! )

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Hey arnie - I hear you.

I know many people who seek asylum in Germany, get approved, live and work there for a few years and then come to the UK. When they arrive they know how to milk the system for what it's worth - they have local councils paying their rent in houses in leafy Surrey. I didn't know you could do that - but they know the system.

The opportunities for making money in the UK are better than other countries (who have better medical facilities and education - don't kid yourself that they come for this) and they are following the money.

Powell was wrong in my opinion - he was no different from the Brits who railed against the Hugeonots, the Irish, the Jews, the West Indians, the Ugandan Indians, the Bangladeshis, the Pakistanis etc etc. Now it is the Poles and other Eastern Europeans and the Nigerians. If you study history, you'll realise that the Celts railed against the Germanic Angles and Saxons, who in turn railed against the Normans - and lets not forget the Romans and Vikings.

As the good book says, there's nothing new under the sun.

Edit:

England once colonized much of the developing world, refused to integrate with the locals, treated the natives as inferiors, stole much of their wealth, and with much pride and arrogance beat into the locals the notion that all things English incl. the language are superior to their own language and culture. Look at the Indians. Even today they take pride in being able to speak ENGLISH well instead of their own language, and prize fair skin far above their own darker skin. As far as I'm concern, England now being swallowed whole by immigration is poetic justice. It is simply being reverse colonized by its former colonies. Reap what you sow England!

(A comment made on The Economist web site.. I think he makes a good point! )

Cheers,
Shafique

Fair point, but how many Brits do you see illegally entering India and claiming either asylum or benefits, housing, child support, medical care and a car?

I think the answer will be between 0 and 0!



Knight

How many Indians are entering the UK illegally and claiming either asylum or benefits?

Those claiming asylum aren't allowed to work, those that are genuine do get to stay - but the numbers are swamped by Brits claiming benefits. Those here illegally aren't entitled to benefits (or are they?)

So, no - not many Indians are entering illegally and claiming asylum or benefits I'd guess. (But I could be wrong)

I mentioned it before, the stats on immigration show that the vast majority are legal migrants (primarily from Europe, but yes many thousands from former colonies as well) and of those staying illegally, the majority are overstayers from South Africa and Australia. (And the irony is that there are indeed thousands of Brits overstaying in Australia too! - as well as Brits legally migrating to other parts of Europe)

(Oh, and indeed there are legal migrants going to India from the UK - both ethnically Indian and Anglo-saxon - but not a great number)

DEBUNKING MYTHS

* Immigrants on average are less likely to be in social housing than those born in the UK, even when the immigrant is from a developing country (LSE study).

* Immigrants are on average more educated than their UK-born counterparts. More than half of the UK-born workforce left school at 16 or earlier, but fewer than one in six new immigrants stopped education at 16 (LSE study).

http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20100416/7 ... e-the.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Then we have every iraquie/algerian and turk coming in by the lorry load claiming asylum and thats on top of every other nationality that see's the UK as a soft touch coming in by air after flushing their passport down the toilet.

Ho ho arnie...I've never understood why those nations had to be torn apart and paralyzed from self progress?
have you? If you ask an iraqi what ties her/him so much to their country while living abroad this would be the reply you get...

I saw my garden blooming with Jasmin flowers, spreading their scent in the whole neighborhood, I saw the palm trees where I would recline underneath their merciful shade, I smelled the wet earth where I'd leave my naked footprints, I heard my mother shouting from the kitchen and the smell of food dragging me in...I saw my grandmother's smile as she was preparing tea, I heard my aunts fight over suitors, I felt the evening breeze caress my face, I saw the stars covering me in the chilly mornings, I heard the grocer greet me and offering me free oranges, I saw the souks and the warmth of the teasing and laughter, I smelled my grandfather's attic and his books, I saw Um Abbas carrying fresh cream at the crack of dawn, I saw my first love throwing my first love letter over the garden wall....

- the earth, the sky, the people...

- Love.

I hear you guys and understand your angst, I would be pissed too. I think the proper legal and skilled workers who could be potentially benefit to the economy have to suffer due to these freeloaders. Another case of one bad fish spoiling the entire pond.

What do you guys think about canada ? It has a relatively skilled immigration program, and AFAIK doesn't suffer from too much illegal immigration. But there the problem is that skilled workers who move there can never get the work at theor level or in their field of work and have to start from much bottom of the ladder all over again.

One of the problem it does suffer from is that one skilled legal and contributing member to the economy bring is two or three dependants and them more family members like ailing parents. So in return for one skilled migrant they get half a dozen citizens who are way past of being any use to the system.

desertdudeshj wrote:What do you guys think about canada ? It has a relatively skilled immigration program, and AFAIK doesn't suffer from too much illegal immigration. But there the problem is that skilled workers who move there can never get the work at theor level or in their field of work and have to start from much bottom of the ladder all over again.

Why do you emphasise on Canada? It's everywhere. In this term the UK is one of the worst country in the world - they recognise non-Western diploma very reluctantly even where US or Canada gives the same degree.

Most emmigrants are second grade sitizens and live for the future of their children only.

An Indian summer in House of Commons

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 904699.cms

For the first time ever UK parliament is hung, and one can't deny immigrant voting patterns have led to that(in a way). So immigrants have made a difference afterall.

Chocoholic wrote:Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Legals or illegals, quite honestly, if the UK spent the next 100 years accommodating all the unemployed people in the world, it still wouldn't amount to sufficient compensation for what they did to the developing world. You are complaining of illegal immigration today when 60 years ago you were still illegally and forcibly occupying like half the planet? The Enoch speech you refer to was this all high and grand nonsense about preserving British history and culture from immigrant evil. The irony is that this speech was delivered barely 2 decades after the British army finally rid the world of their interference. He thinks about the British common man but didn't ask himself what the British common man was doing bullying the Indian common man just 20 years earlier. Give me a break.

If you think people are illegally and unfairly taking advantage of your economy, how about you compensate them for all the raw materials stolen from them and they might stay in their own countries. And no, this is not ancient history that is not relevant today. So many of these illegal immigrants are so desperate because of what their countries have become due to colonialism.

That is not to say i condone illegal immigration Just consider the above a friendly reminder

dee7o wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Legals or illegals, quite honestly, if the UK spent the next 100 years accommodating all the unemployed people in the world, it still wouldn't amount to sufficient compensation for what they did to the developing world. You are complaining of illegal immigration today when 60 years ago you were still illegally and forcibly occupying like half the planet? The Enoch speech you refer to was this all high and grand nonsense about preserving British history and culture from immigrant evil. The irony is that this speech was delivered barely 2 decades after the British army finally rid the world of their interference. He thinks about the British common man but didn't ask himself what the British common man was doing bullying the Indian common man just 20 years earlier. Give me a break.

If you think people are illegally and unfairly taking advantage of your economy, how about you compensate them for all the raw materials stolen from them and they might stay in their own countries. And no, this is not ancient history that is not relevant today. So many of these illegal immigrants are so desperate because of what their countries have become due to colonialism.

That is not to say i condone illegal immigration Just consider the above a friendly reminder

Step down from the soap box!

What happened in previous generations has no bearing on this at all. If I wanted to, I can take just about any country in the world and go back in history to a time when they were exploitative, aggressive, expansionist or even down right brutal, so throwing the history of the UK from the last 2000 years is pointless. We are talking here and now and the future.

The immigrants in the UK are not there to pillage the raw materials of the country, just to exploit the namby pamby do-gooders who have been in power for the last few years and are willing to hand out vast sums in benefits to people who are work shy and know how to work the system.

Try coming to the UAE without a job and getting a free house, cash handouts, a car, medical care...



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:

dee7o wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Legals or illegals, quite honestly, if the UK spent the next 100 years accommodating all the unemployed people in the world, it still wouldn't amount to sufficient compensation for what they did to the developing world. You are complaining of illegal immigration today when 60 years ago you were still illegally and forcibly occupying like half the planet? The Enoch speech you refer to was this all high and grand nonsense about preserving British history and culture from immigrant evil. The irony is that this speech was delivered barely 2 decades after the British army finally rid the world of their interference. He thinks about the British common man but didn't ask himself what the British common man was doing bullying the Indian common man just 20 years earlier. Give me a break.

If you think people are illegally and unfairly taking advantage of your economy, how about you compensate them for all the raw materials stolen from them and they might stay in their own countries. And no, this is not ancient history that is not relevant today. So many of these illegal immigrants are so desperate because of what their countries have become due to colonialism.

That is not to say i condone illegal immigration Just consider the above a friendly reminder

Step down from the soap box!

What happened in previous generations has no bearing on this at all. If I wanted to, I can take just about any country in the world and go back in history to a time when they were exploitative, aggressive, expansionist or even down right brutal, so throwing the history of the UK from the last 2000 years is pointless. We are talking here and now and the future.

The immigrants in the UK are not there to pillage the raw materials of the country, just to exploit the namby pamby do-gooders who have been in power for the last few years and are willing to hand out vast sums in benefits to people who are work shy and know how to work the system.

Try coming to the UAE without a job and getting a free house, cash handouts, a car, medical care...



Knight

Isn't that how most people came to the U.A.E.?

dee7o wrote:

Dubai Knight wrote:Step down from the soap box!

What happened in previous generations has no bearing on this at all. If I wanted to, I can take just about any country in the world and go back in history to a time when they were exploitative, aggressive, expansionist or even down right brutal, so throwing the history of the UK from the last 2000 years is pointless. We are talking here and now and the future.

The immigrants in the UK are not there to pillage the raw materials of the country, just to exploit the namby pamby do-gooders who have been in power for the last few years and are willing to hand out vast sums in benefits to people who are work shy and know how to work the system.

Try coming to the UAE without a job and getting a free house, cash handouts, a car, medical care...



Knight

Isn't that how most people came to the U.A.E.?

Not all of us are Egyptian man!

Misery Called Life wrote:

dee7o wrote:

Dubai Knight wrote:Step down from the soap box!

What happened in previous generations has no bearing on this at all. If I wanted to, I can take just about any country in the world and go back in history to a time when they were exploitative, aggressive, expansionist or even down right brutal, so throwing the history of the UK from the last 2000 years is pointless. We are talking here and now and the future.

The immigrants in the UK are not there to pillage the raw materials of the country, just to exploit the namby pamby do-gooders who have been in power for the last few years and are willing to hand out vast sums in benefits to people who are work shy and know how to work the system.

Try coming to the UAE without a job and getting a free house, cash handouts, a car, medical care...



Knight

Isn't that how most people came to the U.A.E.?

Not all of us are Egyptian man!

Oh yeah I forgot, some people just marry rich. Anyway, I stopped being Egyptian the day we failed to reach the world cup

dee7o wrote:Isn't that how most people came to the U.A.E.?

Not all of us are Egyptian man! [/quote]

Oh yeah I forgot, some people just marry rich. Anyway, I stopped being Egyptian the day we failed to reach the world cup [/quote]

You stopped being Egyptian the day you left Egypt.

You can take out the man out of Egypt but cant take out egypt out of the man.

Youm al Guma Igaza, Wow Gameelan Giddan ya basha

Dubai Knight wrote:

dee7o wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Now you've just confused me - lol

No I meant the figures stating the number of illegals CURRENTLY in the UK have been grossly underestimated.

Legals or illegals, quite honestly, if the UK spent the next 100 years accommodating all the unemployed people in the world, it still wouldn't amount to sufficient compensation for what they did to the developing world. You are complaining of illegal immigration today when 60 years ago you were still illegally and forcibly occupying like half the planet? The Enoch speech you refer to was this all high and grand nonsense about preserving British history and culture from immigrant evil. The irony is that this speech was delivered barely 2 decades after the British army finally rid the world of their interference. He thinks about the British common man but didn't ask himself what the British common man was doing bullying the Indian common man just 20 years earlier. Give me a break.

If you think people are illegally and unfairly taking advantage of your economy, how about you compensate them for all the raw materials stolen from them and they might stay in their own countries. And no, this is not ancient history that is not relevant today. So many of these illegal immigrants are so desperate because of what their countries have become due to colonialism.

That is not to say i condone illegal immigration Just consider the above a friendly reminder

Step down from the soap box!

What happened in previous generations has no bearing on this at all. If I wanted to, I can take just about any country in the world and go back in history to a time when they were exploitative, aggressive, expansionist or even down right brutal, so throwing the history of the UK from the last 2000 years is pointless. We are talking here and now and the future.

The immigrants in the UK are not there to pillage the raw materials of the country, just to exploit the namby pamby do-gooders who have been in power for the last few years and are willing to hand out vast sums in benefits to people who are work shy and know how to work the system.

Try coming to the UAE without a job and getting a free house, cash handouts, a car, medical care...



Knight

Dee70

Yea the Brits and its allies have also spent the last 100 years occupying and saving everyone else from doing the "goose-step", eating "bratwurst sausage 3 times a day and swilling gallons of Braverian Lager every evening.

Meanwhile, everyone else who did not meet the white skinned aryan profile were probably taking a long rest in a mass grave.

-- Sun May 09, 2010 10:39 pm --

arniegang wrote:
Dee70

Yea the Brits and its allies have also spent the last 100 years occupying and saving everyone else from doing the "goose-step", eating "bratwurst sausage 3 times a day and swilling gallons of Braverian Lager every evening.

Meanwhile, everyone else who did not meet the white skinned aryan profile were probably taking a long rest in a mass grave.

Of course you're right. Please tell our saviors that when they are done fighting for the entire human race they need to come and disarm the millions of land mines they left behind in other countries that they were "saving". If they find the time.

I'm not trying to be anti British but after all the nonsense people have been fed about globalization from the Western World, you can't blame them for coming to your front door- whether that be the UK or the US or wherever an illegal ferry lands them. After all, wasn't this lifestyle marketed as the dream of every man and woman on earth. Didn't you spend trillions showing the world what your houses and streets and malls and shops and pubs look like. Can you really blame them for coming to see for themselves? Not very different from Dubai really.

arniegang wrote:Dee70

Yea the Brits and its allies have also spent the last 100 years occupying and saving everyone else from doing the "goose-step", eating "bratwurst sausage 3 times a day and swilling gallons of Braverian Lager every evening.

Meanwhile, everyone else who did not meet the white skinned aryan profile were probably taking a long rest in a mass grave.

If someone had a bit of conscience he would not repeat that crap like parrot at least in this holy day. Shame on you!

dee7o wrote:
Of course you're right. Please tell our saviors that when they are done fighting for the entire human race they need to come and disarm the millions of land mines they left behind in other countries that they were "saving". If they find the time.

Actually the UK is the global leader in the detection and eradication of mines. We are the ones who go around the world clearing the ordnance left by less scrupulous powers and teaching the local military how to handle them. There is a strong UK lobby to stop the manufacture of mines and an even stronger one to stop their deployment.

The largest proportion of anti-personnel mines made and distributed globally, are Chinese.

Fancy getting legless in Dragon Mart?



Knight

Red Chief wrote:

arniegang wrote:Dee70

Yea the Brits and its allies have also spent the last 100 years occupying and saving everyone else from doing the "goose-step", eating "bratwurst sausage 3 times a day and swilling gallons of Braverian Lager every evening.

Meanwhile, everyone else who did not meet the white skinned aryan profile were probably taking a long rest in a mass grave.

If someone had a bit of conscience he would not repeat that crap like parrot at least in this holy day. Shame on you!

I agree, there is a strong correlation between your comment and parrot crap

-- Mon May 10, 2010 11:18 pm --

Dubai Knight wrote:

dee7o wrote:
Of course you're right. Please tell our saviors that when they are done fighting for the entire human race they need to come and disarm the millions of land mines they left behind in other countries that they were "saving". If they find the time.

Actually the UK is the global leader in the detection and eradication of mines. We are the ones who go around the world clearing the ordnance left by less scrupulous powers and teaching the local military how to handle them. There is a strong UK lobby to stop the manufacture of mines and an even stronger one to stop their deployment.

The largest proportion of anti-personnel mines made and distributed globally, are Chinese.

Fancy getting legless in Dragon Mart?



Knight

I am not saying that the UK is some devil power that is purposely trying to kill everyone. However, don't you think that saying that Britain occupied half the world to "save" it is stretching the truth ever so slightly? Anyway this was about immigrants. Again, all I am saying is that you can't expect people to keep watching you from across the fence and not want to join you. This applies to any country that actively markets its lifestyle. What is to stop people from coming and trying to share or let's be pessimistic steal what you have?

dee7o wrote:

Red Chief wrote:

arniegang wrote:Dee70

Yea the Brits and its allies have also spent the last 100 years occupying and saving everyone else from doing the "goose-step", eating "bratwurst sausage 3 times a day and swilling gallons of Braverian Lager every evening.

Meanwhile, everyone else who did not meet the white skinned aryan profile were probably taking a long rest in a mass grave.

If someone had a bit of conscience he would not repeat that crap like parrot at least in this holy day. Shame on you!

I agree, there is a strong correlation between your comment and parrot crap

Perception problems??? It looked like RC was on ur side

Not realy. It was only my attitude to those turkey cocks, who saved the world most time sitting on the island in their warm houses. On the other hand, this myth looks like a part of national consciousness - so many people repeat it. That's why other time I would say nothing, but not on the 9th of May.

They were allies I'd like to avoid in the future.

Red Chief wrote:Not realy. It was only my attitude to those turkey cocks, who saved the world most time sitting on the island in their warm houses. On the other hand, this myth looks like a part of national consciousness - so many people repeat it. That's why other time I would say nothing, but not on the 9th of May.

They were allies I'd like to avoid in the future.

Well we did end up staring at each other across Check Point Charlie for how many years? I think you made your point very clear in 1945, and yet our boys were in the same place your boys were...is that sitting in our nice warm island?

There were a lot of men lost who put boot to *ss for the sake not just of our country, but a lot of others as well. Which is the reason this forum is in English...and not German. Or did you forget that?



Knight

David Cameron.


We now have a new PM (apologies for bringing the topic back to the question in the thread header! )

Cheers,
Shafique