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And p.s. Red Chief, how can you say that Ihab El Labban would have no rights to custody of his kids if they were having a legal battle in the UK? How do you know that? There are plenty of mixed nationality couples residing in the the UK having custody battles, but luckily there is a law that is meant for everyone, despite their gender, religion or nationality.

double posted...

I believe every divorce case is unique by it self and and almost never 2 are identical . judges all over the world judge based on every case circumstances and each one statues .lets leave it to that.

Problem in the UAE is that it is the mix of many nationalities and the couples being expats ,now this is a problem by it self bcz it will mean one of the parents wont be able to see his/her kids when they leave the country and then the dispute of what religion ,language and customs the kids should adapt to, it's really not an easy call for judges any where. and that’s why they take so long to make that call.

But I like that law in the USA ,I think it is called pre agreement or something where the couples agrees on so many things before getting married ,I think it saves lots of trouble in the case of divorcing.

and I don't think taking the problem outside the UAE will do any good for the fact of there is no clear written laws in those cases and if there are any ,they will be easy to overpass ! example :lets say it is the law that the father gets the custody but if he is an alcoholic, drugs user ,proven aggressive or jobless then he is automatically incapable of taking care of the kids. it is really simple.

Speaking as a person married to someone from another nationality and living in a 3rd country, if the marriage was to break down it would be very awkward to do the proceedings here. What happens if one person's work status changes making it difficult for them to remain in the country? What do you do in the case of custody or visitation with the children? It is much better for the couple to move to one person or the other's home country where they are always able to reside legally and find work while also allowing both parents access to the kids. It is hard enough if one person can never return to their home country without leaving their children behind. It isn't easy if you have language, residency and employment issues.

kanelli wrote:And p.s. Red Chief, how can you say that Ihab El Labban would have no rights to custody of his kids if they were having a legal battle in the UK? How do you know that? There are plenty of mixed nationality couples residing in the the UK having custody battles, but luckily there is a law that is meant for everyone, despite their gender, religion or nationality.

It's only WORDS. There are a lot of opposite cases, because judges believe that
1) life for kids in the first world would be better than in the third one.
2) Goddam, the kids are British citizens. No, they are not allowed to live in Egypt. They are our citizens! (singing) Rule Britain!
3) If even everything as fair as Ms. Kanelli desires and the British court, the most unbiased one in the World, agreed for visiting kids by father, how do you think he would realise that right?
Egyptian and other 3d class nationalities need a visa to visit own cildren, sorry UK. Who will arrange the visa for the father? The former wife or the judge?

Red Chief wrote:

kanelli wrote:And p.s. Red Chief, how can you say that Ihab El Labban would have no rights to custody of his kids if they were having a legal battle in the UK? How do you know that? There are plenty of mixed nationality couples residing in the the UK having custody battles, but luckily there is a law that is meant for everyone, despite their gender, religion or nationality.

It's only WORDS. There are a lot of opposite cases, because judges believe that
1) life for kids in the first world would be better than in the third one.
2) Goddam, the kids are British citizens. No, they are not allowed to live in Egypt. They are our citizens! (singing) Rule Britain!
3) If even everything as fair as Ms. Kanelli desires and the British court, the most unbiased one in the World, agreed for visiting kids by father, how do you think he would realise that right?
Egyptian and other 3d class nationalities need a visa to visit own cildren, sorry UK. Who will arrange the visa for the father? The former wife or the judge?

The "expert" has once again shown his full blown knowledge on how things work.

BB,
Let us discuss point, not persons. Probably your well upbringing and poor childhood in Br@@@ doesn't allow you to follow some rules but at least try. We are not there.

Red Chief wrote:BB,
Let us discuss point, not persons. Probably your well upbringing and poor childhood in Br@@@ doesn't allow you to follow some rules but at least try. We are not there.

Brazil?

Speedhump wrote:

Red Chief wrote:BB,
Let us discuss point, not persons. Probably your well upbringing and poor childhood in Br@@@ doesn't allow you to follow some rules but at least try. We are not there.

Brazil?

You say discuss point, not persons. Well what points are you making when you discuss me. The idiot insists I am from the Bronx, New York.

Let's see, I have a well upbringing yet a poor childhood?
And about rules, what rules are you referring to? Those that you think people should abide by, but don't apply to you?

Look dipshit, here's a few points I would like to make. I saw your kind go through garbage bins in the States to furnish homes, put clothes on their backs and take thrown away food out of a bin for dinner, all of which is probably acceptable and a way of life in the Motherland. Your kind would go from apartment to apartment with a gallon bottle of wood alcohol and probably dream about the Motherland until they passed out. I also watched your kind swindle every government agency in the States, including Jewish foundations.

If life is so good in the Motherland then why did the Russians leave and continue to do so? You don't see Americans or other Westerners getting in line trying to get into Russia do you?

Bored Bora,

You mixed me up with some another person. I've NEVER been to the US and I'm not going to visit. I'm not waiting for myself anything new there.

I'm very happy living in Moscow where I was born.

Your billingsgate language bears a strong resemblance to the some speeches rather from "NYPD blues" than "The gossip girl".

Red Chief wrote:Bored Bora,

You mixed me up with some another person. I've NEVER been to the US and I'm not going to visit. I'm not waiting for myself anything new there.

I'm very happy living in Moscow where I was born.

Your billingsgate language bears a strong resemblance to the some speeches rather from "NYPD blues" than "The gossip girl".

I guess US they let you in won't. Sory hear you blu. No me not from Billingsgate.

Red Chief is a complete troll and should be ignored. Every post resorts to insults to people and somehow drags in his hate for anything British. I don't take anything he has to say seriously, and I am tired of him throwing so many threads off track.

Ms. Kanelli,
I don't speak about British only. British court was only example of appropriate attitude because at that time we were talking about international marriage between Egyptian man and British woman.
Actually I know a few cases about serial "kidnapping" of own children by parents that happened with Russian women and their Western spouses (from France, Finland... I don't know the cases on British soil though).

The case I wrote in the first post is about Russian woman who was stopped in Hungary on the border with Russia for KIDNAPPING own child and is waiting for extradition to FRANCE (the home of her spouse) to be sentenced for 15 years. Of course it doesn't matter that a year ago the Frenchman had kidnapped the kid from Moscow but he had been more luckier and delivered him to Paris. By the way there were contradicting decision in Russian and French courts but Hungary is the member of EU and French decision looks more valid for them.
Rather dirty stuff, isn't it Kanelli. I know you love it.

A few days ago aged but still agile Finn Saomen crossed the border between Russia and Finland with his kid travelling in the boot (trunk) of a car of Finnish embassy, although there is a verdict of Russian court about living the kid with mother but there is no any decision of Finnish one.

According to above and many other cases I understand that runaway of Western womem with children is the easiest way to solve all their problems because they can easily have desirable decision in the home courts.

It's similar to those thieves who drooped their luxury cars in the airport having one-way ticket in their pockets.

Kanelli, stop repeating your mantra about trolls if there isn't enough room in your small brain for something real but bitter.

Red Chief wrote:Ms. Kanelli,
I don't speak about British only. British court was only example of appropriate attitude because at that time we were talking about international marriage between Egyptian man and British woman.
Actually I know a few similar cases about serial "kidnapping" of own children by parents that happened with Russian women and their Western spouses (from France, Finland... I don't know the cases on British soil though).

The case I wrote in the first post is about Russian woman who was stopped in Hungary on the border with Russia for KIDNAPPING own child and is waiting for extradition to FRANCE (the home of her spouse) to be sentenced for 15 years. Of course it doesn't matter that a year ago the Frenchman had kidnapped the kid from Moscow but he had been more luckier and delivered him to Paris and there were contradicting decision in Russian and French courts.
Rather dirty stuff, isn't it Kanelli. I know you love it.

A few days ago aged but still agile Finn Saomen crossed the border between Russia and Finland with his kid travelling in the boot (trunck) of a car of Finnish embassy, although there is a verdict of Russian court about living the kid with mother but there is no any decision of Finnish one.

According to above and many other cases I understand that runaway of Western womem with children is the easiest way to solve all their problems because they can easily have desirable decision in the home courts.

I don't think it's fair to compare a mother (or father) running to another country with their kids, to the people leaving Dubai without paying their car loans or other debts. The first should usually be done out of love for their children and the fear of separation from them, the second is purely financial criminal action to avoid debt and imprisonment (actually quite sensible in fact). While the first is also illegal I really think that I feel sympathetic to people that feel the need to do it. It still doesnt make it right, however. It's a confusing subject and I guess we should consider also that it may be the party who is running away who was the party at fault in a relationship breakdown, and who may even not be the best parent (regardless of their gender).

I compared the cases with cars and cases with the kids only to show that both of them are the way to solve the situation in desirable way (avoid responsibility or have children).

I tried to show in my previous post that spouses after divorce are not criminals. So there is no strict line who deserves an upbringing of their children.

That's why French/Finnish/British courts could easiely make and make a little bit biased desision espesialy if the kids are French/Finnish/British citizens.

Yes there is no strict line. I agree that it's often a confusing situation, emotional but also with a legal side to be ruled on.

There is a quite high profile pressure group in the UK, Fathers-4-Justice which tries to fight for fathers to get better deals from UK courts. I'm sure there must be others in other countries.

However it still is plain that if a woman is certain under Sharia Law that she will lose custody of her children in a Muslim country, she will try to leave, just as Turkish (and other) Muslim fathers in the UK have been well reported in UK newspapers leaving their British wives and fleeing to Turkey or other Muslim countries with the chlidren. I even have known people in two cases personally (one leaving UK, one leaving Germany). So it cuts both ways.

Red Chief wrote:Rather dirty stuff, isn't it Kanelli. I know you love it.

Kanelli, stop repeating your mantra about trolls if there isn't enough room in your small brain for something real but bitter.

More personal attacks.

Seriously, what is wrong with any of my posts in this thread? Why on earth do you think you can speak to me this way with the way I have dealt with this topic?

I gave the opinion that both parents should have access to their children, so that is why they should move to one of their home countries and work out the divorce and custody settlement there. Being in a 3rd country with separate laws from the nationalities of the parents and children absolutely complicates things! However, you have a huge issue with me and want to be insulting to me based on such comments? Who has the small brain?

It is clear that you constantly need someone to harass on this forum, and now that you are giving Speedhump a break, your attention turns to me.

Either debate the actual topic and stop insulting other posters, or you can just %$^% off.

Have a nice day!

I have to agree that the nastiness started when he said 'Ms. Kanelli, I hope you lie yourself. Before judging look at the mirror.'

What he meant by it I have no idea though?

Speedhump wrote:There is a quite high profile pressure group in the UK, Fathers-4-Justice which tries to fight for fathers to get better deals from UK courts. I'm sure there must be others in other countries.

Thank you for yr. inf. It confirms that situation in the UK is quite similar with Russia. It means that there is some benefit for women to have custody for own children. Strange but I agreed with such situation if the woman is a decent (not necessary wealthy) member of society in spite of I married and have a child.

It means that cases I wrote about is even more horrible as soon as in "educated" France (not "wild" Turkey) mother will go to jail for 15 years for kidnapping own child only due to 3 years girl is French citizen (she also has Russian citizenship by the way).

Kanelli, look at the mirror and don't call other people as trolls if their opinions are not the same as yours. Got my point?

Red Chief wrote:

Speedhump wrote:There is a quite high profile pressure group in the UK, Fathers-4-Justice which tries to fight for fathers to get better deals from UK courts. I'm sure there must be others in other countries.

Thank you for yr. inf. It confirms that situation in the UK is quite similar with Russia. It means that there is some benefit for women to have custody for own children. Strange but I agreed with such situation if the woman is a decent (not necessary wealthy) member of society in spite of I married and have a child.

It means that cases I wrote about is even more horrible as soon as in "educated" France (not "wild" Turkey) mother will go to jail for 15 years for kidnapping own child only due to 3 years girl is French citizen (she also has Russian citizenship by the way).

I'm really not sure the mother is always the best choice. If a kid has to have a single parent, many men are wonderful fathers and also may earn more money. Also kids that grow up without a strong male role model may turn delinquent far more easily?

The more that we talk, the more that it seems the Islamic model of young children needing a mother but older children (especially boys) needing a father figure is partially based on real life needs. How complicated it is.

BUT, I think that the law can't provide all the answers though, and codifying the matter into simplistic rules (at age 7, THIS child goes to THAT parent) cannot be the answer at all.

Red Chief, again, what is so controversial about my opinion that both parents are entitled to see their children and parents should ensure that that happens, not engaging in international custody battles?

I'm really starting to think all those bottles of vodka have caused serious damage to your brain. Please, I won't stop you from getting back to your shot glass, nor finding another more willing target on this forum to harass. Nazdarovya! Kipis! Cheers!

Kanelli, look at the mirror and don't call other people as trolls if their opinions are not the same as yours. Got my point?

DF has been a little bit devastated for a few months due to mass exodus of expats from Dubai. So there are not so many Western supporters and spectators of your rant "don't feed the troll" as before. Try to play the game yourself.

I don't have a problem with your opinion not matching mine about the topic of discussion. I have a problem with you being a disrespectful asshole to me with your posts. You are a troll because you come here to personally harass and insult forum posters across various threads. Your conduct speaks for itself. Now seriously, move along to your next target, and don't forget your little troll boots (and vodka bottle!).

Oh, boy... How chaotic you are! It's Ok that you didn't even read my argumentation but you called me "troll" for hating of all British and insulting Ms. Bora (not you), who had provocated me first in this thread.

I must say that I hate such kind of a team work (but you like it). So probably a little bit overreacted.

So, anyone have opinions, in light of the UAE custody laws, on whether it is right or wrong for a father or mother to leave the UAE with their child/children when a marriage breaks down (and both parents are from another or other countries)?

kanelli wrote:So, anyone have opinions, in light of the UAE custody laws, on whether it is right or wrong for a father or mother to leave the UAE with their child/children when a marriage breaks down (and both parents are from another or other countries)?

Yes. if it's a matter of right and wrong, hence morality, then people should do whatever they feel is best for their children (NOT for themselves!). If it means giving up their rights because they feel the other parent is better suited to looking after children then fine. On the other hand if it means breaking the law and running then they should do that, if they have real conviction that the kids' interests will be best served. I don't think that the legal system here is flexible or open enough to always deal with these issues (but then the same can be said for other countries also, even in the West as we have discussed above).

Example: if you have a will drawn in the UK (for example) and you are both expats it can be submitted to the courts here and its requirements applied. So why can't some laws from other countries be applied here in certain circumstances, if both parties agree to it (whether in advance or after the event). That is certainly what UK Muslims are pressing for in the UK; that they can have some court judgements made in accordance with Sharia Law, not UK law, if both parties agree.

kanelli wrote:So, anyone have opinions, in light of the UAE custody laws, on whether it is right or wrong for a father or mother to leave the UAE with their child/children when a marriage breaks down (and both parents are from another or other countries)?

Certificates of marriage or divorce between Russian citizen and foreigner issued in the third country don't have legal effect in Russia. There is no way to legalize them for Russia.
So if I were married to non-UAE foreigner I would have to go to Russia or a country of my wife for divorce. So it isn't your best wish but the law for all Russians.

Actually there are no international (but only national) laws for regulating such situation. The situation resolves according to bilateral agreement between appropriate countries which doesn't exist sometimes.

So Western parent could have on hands a decision of a court from "wild" Russia, Turkey or Ivory Coast and then one or another way flies away with kids and have another decision from less "biased" court in home country. It's the way to serial kidnapping and jail.

Well, I don't know if they will feel much pressure to change the laws to suit any expats divorcing and seeking custody here.

In my view, one parent or the other fleeing the UAE with the kids may not be to punish the other parent, but to force the proceedings to be done in the home country, not a foreign country. It may be inconvenient because it forces the other parent to leave the UAE and come to the home country to fight for custody or joint custody of the kids. From a woman's perspective, especially if she came to the UAE sponsored by the husband for his work contract, she is likely trying to get herself on good footing career and money-wise so that she can be in a better position after divorcing and sorting out custody. The same can be said if it is a case of the father running with the kids to his home country for the same reasons. You can hardly blame a parent for wanting to put themselves in the best position after a divorce/custody agreement. To try to make an ex-wife/ex-husband stay in a third foreign country or leave without the kids because the custody laws favour them in that country is not fair.

I didn't blame anybody. I told you how the system actually works in many cases.
At my point of view the runaways with kids has nothing in common with legal system in the UAE. It is only way of resolving the problem in own benefit, the way the Westerners are familiar with.