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Berrin wrote:True, but whose gonna teach them this?

The parents ideally

Berrin wrote:You know you still got to tell us why you see no wrong in fornication?

I see sexually as an important part of a marriage/relationship. Getting to know one and each other is important before taking the big step. I see it as a positive thing both parties already know some tricks and surprise the other.

The parents ideally

What if the parents haven't been tought...Teaching is not enough..You have to be a role model as well, that's how you can convince..Majority of the time a good role modelling family is not enough either..The society has to be a right model as well. Otherwise kids gonna compare what they see at home over what they hear and see out in public..i.e friends and their family..And if kids socialise under morally broken society, soon what you'll see is that they give up what they learn at home in order to keep up with competition outside, to advantage themselves..Seemingly ofcourse but in reality its working to their disadvantage..only to learn from mistakes later,as they get older...

Getting to know one and each other is important before taking the big step.

How many couples have you met that sincerly knew all about each other before they got married? It's a big illusion..If that was right divorce rate in the west would have been around zero percentage..

I see it as a positive thing both parties already know some tricks and surprise the other.

What is this all about?

zubber wrote:True this is only a survey, but the results are bound to give parents nightmares

If parents actually researched and read what is going on with pre-teens and teens today, it should be a wake-up call, not a nightmare!!!

What ever happened to instilling self-respect along with self-confidence? Parents need to teach their kids that "being different" is OK. It means being your own person. Kids should also be taught that in time they will regret bad behavior, and bad behavior has consequences. It may not mean anything to them at the time, but it will come back to haunt you. The fewer mistakes you make in life, the few regrets you will have later on.

I remember one guy who was part of our "crowd" who didn't follow the "crowd". This made him so attractive to all the girls because he was "different" and was his own person.

Berrin wrote:What is this all about?

Sexual experience

If you cannot have that sexual experience without a woman...Why cannot that woman be the one inside a marriage?

Of course you can.

Bora Bora wrote:What ever happened to instilling self-respect along with self-confidence? Parents need to teach their kids that "being different" is OK. It means being your own person.

100% agree.

It is hard - teens do want to belong, and they all listen to similar music, watch the same movies and I'm sure have crushes on the same celebrities.

But I do tell my eldest daughter (and so far she is listening) that she also should be confident enough to set fashion rather than follow fashion. Choose role models, choose friends - and above all choose behaviour. The fact she is a role model for her younger sisters also (hopefully) gives her pause for thought.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:What ever happened to instilling self-respect along with self-confidence? Parents need to teach their kids that "being different" is OK. It means being your own person.

100% agree.

It is hard - teens do want to belong, and they all listen to similar music, watch the same movies and I'm sure have crushes on the same celebrities.

But I do tell my eldest daughter (and so far she is listening) that she also should be confident enough to set fashion rather than follow fashion. Choose role models, choose friends - and above all choose behaviour. The fact she is a role model for her younger sisters also (hopefully) gives her pause for thought.

Cheers,
Shafique

Good on you Shaf. It takes alot of work and time raising children. Unfortunately, too many parents are too busy with their own lives and don't want to put in the time, let the kids go off, take the approach "they'll grow out of it", "its a phase", which in many cases it can be, but the growing out and the passing phase each have 2 roads to choose from.

Of course you can

if so, what? have you thought all along how so many thing become a part of a long chain to create a society where everyone is happy?

Berrin wrote:have you thought all along how so many thing become a part of a long chain to create a society where everyone is happy?

Personal freedom and a bit of extra cash to do nice stuff.

It takes alot of work and time raising children. Unfortunately, too many parents are too busy with their own lives .

ssshht..Are you trying to imply something, feminists may find this offensive ..You know Females too have to have a career and compete both with male and females at work and outside...so Sorry kids you just have to mind your own business, off you go...you'll grow out of what bothers you yourselves..,it's a phase in life..too tough..

-- Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:03 pm --

Personal freedom and a bit of extra cash to do nice stuff.

You do know that talking to you is a waste of time (so why do you bother)..All I'd like to say is that, in real life, just be honest(of your beliefs) to females who may have genuine intentions when they approach you...

Yep definitely. I think it really starts with TV and the media. Not sure what can really stop this from progressively getting worse.

berrin, why are mothers always on the hook? How about daddy's behaviour if he's ogling women, has girlie magazines in the house etc. Kids have two parents who are supposed to be responsible for raising them well. Having se.x only in marriage is a ridiculous ideal that the majority of humans have never been able to adhere to since the beginning of time. If parents have had se.x before marriage it is not going to mean that they are not good role models for their kids.

I'm with JoeTGF about the media having too much emphasis on s.e.xual images and subject matter. I'm not a prude about se.x, but I think it is something adults should be doing, not kids - because of the consequences like possible rape, mental upset at being loved and left, STDs, and pregnancy. When I compare MTV in the 80's until now, what a huge difference. Mostly the pop, hip hop, and rap music videos have barely clothed women writhing around, pouting into the camera, or shaking butts and boobs all over. (Funny, it used to be the rock music in the 80's ) Even the lyrics revolve around s.e.x. So, for adults in a se.xy mood this kind of stuff can be appropriate, but played all the time, every day on a channel most kids and teens watch, it becomes so normal that kids think it is how they should be viewing themselves - are they se.xy enough and attractive to others, and on their way to having se.x sooner rather than later because s.ex is apparently something they don't want to miss out on if everyone dresses and sings and talks about it everywhere.

Dads are also on the hook - absolutely.

I also totally agree about TV and media. Advertising is a major culprit as well - you can't move these days without seeing women in various states of undress selling totally unrelated things.

I always jokingly make the point that the men who convinced women that dressing s.exily is a sign of liberation and freedom - are geniuses. A sort of epic reverse psychology. Unfortunately what starts off as 'eye candy' can lead to unwelcome (and admittedly, unintended) societal consequences.

Now it seems odd that a woman may NOT wish to have her bits out on display for all to see. There was a time when this was just considered normal - and that wasn't too long ago either!

I do see a clear link, but that's just my analysis of how we got here. We all have to live in the world we're in, and the solution for my family is indeed parental education of kids, and instilling in them 'old fashioned' ideas of self worth, confidence and elegance in fashion.

(BTW - I started young with my kids, we have a joke that in summer time we see a lot of very, very poor people out on the streets... look, they can't afford clothes to cover their bodies! It's a sort of 'emperor's new clothes' tactic that even our 4 year old daughter has a laugh at. )

Cheers,
Shafique

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 36931.html

berrin, why are mothers always on the hook? How about daddy's behaviour if he's ogling women, has girlie magazines in the house etc. Kids have two parents who are supposed to be responsible for raising them well.

They are both on the hook as you say, you cannot have one parent a real good mentor while the other is draining all the efforts being made..
It’s similar to the what I wrote about family training and society draining as in above.
Chidren of both genders have so much to learn and resemble from parents.
But one of them “at least” has to have the responsibility in overall training as the other will take the task of providing for the family.. IMO, If you are full time parents working late and overtime, then couple of hours(sometimes no hours as kids go to bed early) spent in the evenings are not enough to lead kids in right directions…
At least one parent has to take “more or less” full time responsibility! If you ask my opinion a mother is more suited for that job.
However, for all this to work successfully, we must make efforts to make marriages work as well.

Complaning about dad’s behaviour is not gonna resolve anything unless we take right steps for the best in consultation to each other, remember that, those dads were the products of their parents when they were young!

Having se.x only in marriage is a ridiculous ideal that the majority of humans have never been able to adhere to since the beginning of time.

The more you understand the importance of peaceful/healthy society, the further you’ll be in search of moral conduct, the further you dig yourself into moral conduct, the more you'll be exposed to spiritual strength therefore religion(it’s not the secular laws that deals with moral conduct but scriptures unfortunately)

If parents have had se.x before marriage it is not going to mean that they are not good role models for their kids.

If you can have s.ex before marriage, why can’t you have relationships and kids outside marriage? That’s how the kids interpret it these days unfortunately… In secular world since there cannot be a restriction on the onset of age for s.ex and having kids, they are left unguided- upon self will…Unless parents (society) corrects this misconception by being role models, the situation is just gonna get worse I think..

I'm with JoeTGF about the media having too much emphasis on s.e.xual images and subject matter.

Yes but it’s not the machines that write the contents of those magazines, magazines are produced by those mums and dads that we all dislike. So where will you start from?

You've definitely got some se.xist opinions there berrin! The person making the highest wage should be the one working full-time - sometimes that is the woman

You don't need religion to have good morals - just be a human being practicing the golden rule that derives from human, not divine, experience.

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are not married and they are having their 3rd kid. The only difference between their marriage and mine is that I have a piece of paper and they don't. They met the summer of my wedding, so have been together the same length of time I've been married, which is 10 yrs. She's a school teacher and he's a journalist and they live a very family-centred life. Are my husband and I more moral and upstanding people in society because we have a piece of paper saying we are officially married?

Most of those planning and writing those smutty ads, shows, music etc. are likely singles, or if they are married they see dollar signs and stoop to lower levels to get the most controversial and most watched material because it makes more bucks.

You've definitely got some se.xist opinions there berrin! The person making the highest wage should be the one working full-time - sometimes that is the woman

LOL.. if you can make masculine men whom represent power (due to natural tendencies), stick to all day' housework and care of kids then do so,...nothing is in your way.....

You don't need religion to have good morals - just be a human being practicing the golden rule that derives from human, not divine, experience.

hell,Then what are we discussing here...Its obvious that not so many people know about those golden rules...

She's a school teacher and he's a journalist and they live a very family-centred life

exceptions don't change precept

Most of those planning and writing those smutty ads, shows, music etc. are likely singles, or if they are married they see dollar signs and stoop to lower levels to get the most controversial and most watched material because it makes more bucks.

Those singles must have had parents like you "practicing the golden rule that derives from human." LOL

You've got it all figured out berrin - it is those nasty feminists who have premarital se.x, work outside the home, and don't wear a burkha! And don't forget the atheists!

Please continue to share your wisdom Berrin:

LOL BB.... but nah, they don't look muslims to me....

-- Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:38 pm --

it is those nasty feminists who have premarital se.x, work outside the home, and don't wear a burkha!

Nah, ladies had to be liberated to act nasty feminists to accompany those nasty masculinists who have premarital se.x, work outside the home,and prefer bikini lines..

EU Births out of wedlock




Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4733330.stm

American Births out of wedlock

Source - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15835429/ns ... pregnancy/

Fact - Couples that are not tied together by marriage, don't feel the same level of commitment as those that are married.

New figures, just out in December from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), looked at the comparative health of children in all types of living situations. Those who lived in the same home as their two parents (technically, they didn't have to be married, but they had to be together) had lower rates of a whole litany of ailments, including asthma, vision problems, developmental delays, ADHD and migraines, even when wealth and education were factored in. The only malady the CDC found more prevalent among the children of married parents was allergies.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110106/h ... 5zdG9nZQ--

The above article clearly indicates the health of the child is adversely affected in single parenting situations.

If men are considered to be Neanderthals , then how can you expect them to stick to a woman and have kid, and then stay committed to her ?

Births out of wedlock are often "Accidents" , Moreover these accidental pregnancies lead to the rise in abortion rates and baby dumping. All of this has risen from liberalized values towards $ex.

The following is a collection of studies that have linked criminal behavior and delinquency among children of both divrocee's and singe parent.

Children of divorce: Crime statistics

All but three of 23 recent studies found some family structure effect on crime or delinquency. Seven of the eight studies that used nationally representative data, for example, found that children in single-parent or other non-intact family structures were at greater risk of committing criminal or delinquent acts. For example: A study using Add-Health data found that even after controlling for race, parents' education, and income, adolescents in single-parent families were almost two times more likely to have pulled a knife or a gun on someone in the past year. (Todd Michael Franke 2000)

http://www.divorcereform.org/crime.html

Eu Crime Rates 1960 - 2003

Source - http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/crimprev/index.php?id=185

World Crime Rates

Source - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... a-U-S.html

Examine the graphs carefully, The Trend and correlation are quite apparent.

I like my "chart" better. Reflective of one's mindset.

^Your 'chart' is funnier!

Cheers,
Shafique

High five for BB!

I'd have a go at all your stats boys, but neanderthals cannot be tamed.

kanelli wrote:High five for BB!

I'd have a go at all your stats boys, but neanderthals cannot be tamed.

A picture is worth a 1,000 words!!!

zubber wrote:Fact - Couples that are not tied together by marriage, don't feel the same level of commitment as those that are married.

This is not supported by your quote:

Those who lived in the same home as their two parents (technically, they didn't have to be married, but they had to be together)

Fact - Couples that are not tied together by marriage, don't feel the same level of commitment as those that are married.

Yes I have not presented any supporting information to confirm this Truism, a further investigation would reveal it is logically sound.

This is not supported by your quote:
Those who lived in the same home as their two parents (technically, they didn't have to be married, but they had to be together)

This was not meant to be supporting information for my quote, The statement doesn't relate to the same subject matter of the truism which I have stated.

There are plenty of marriages where it looks great from the outside, the kids are happy going about their business, but the parents aren't happy and each have someone on the side. They have the marriage certificate - remain committed on the surface, but underneath they aren't committed to anything more than sharing a house together "for the sake of the kids". So, the kids may fare better than kids from divorced families while young; however, the kids learn that marriage brings stress, unhappiness and drudgery. Then the parents wonder why their kids choose to remain bachelors or spinsters

From a social perspective - I'm not that hung up on a marriage certificate. What is more important, IMO, is the commitment that a couple have to each other and the joint desire to have a long term relationship and bring up a family (should they decide to have children).

This is from a selfish perspective - as children brought up in a loving, nuclear family is the best for a stable, happy society IMO.

I also believe in divorce - on the grounds that a destructive relationship is worse than a single parent family where the parent(s) love the children and do the best they can whilst not living together.

I also think from experience and from common sense, that a marriage has a better chance of working if both parties go into the relationship with the same goals (broadly - you'll never fully agree and happy marriages are hallmarked by compromising on both sides).

If one expects a fair tale relationship, you'll either be extremely, extremely lucky and will get one - or you will be disapointed. The difference between successful relationships and those that separate/divorce is whether one chooses to work through these differences or just pack up and move on to the next person, only for the cycle to begin again.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Shafique