Terror And Liberalism

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Terror and Liberalism Oct 03, 2010
Long overdue, but I almost finished the book. Great reading!

Below is a review from the Guardian for some counterweight:

On 25 February 1830 Victor Hugo's play Hernani was performed to the most extraordinary scenes of riot and disorder in Paris. The subject of the now-forgotten work was the attempted assassination of a king by a Romantic Spanish outlaw hero, Hernani, who ends his days in a suicide pact. The play had been banned by the official censor, but on the first night Hugo gathered around him a gang of long-haired young bloods known as the Romantic Army, who fought pitched street battles to force the authorities to allow the play to go ahead. Hugo partisans all wore a badge bearing the Spanish word for iron, hierro, to identify them and mark their steely determination to fight the forces of conventional bourgeois liberalism.

For Paul Berman, the play is an early expression of the terrorist mentality. 'Murder as rebellion, suicide as honour, murder and suicide as the joint emblem of human freedom - those were Hugo's themes.' These, he argues, in a compelling challenge to modern liberal attititudes, are also the common thread in the terrorist mindset that links early anarchists and Bolsheviks in Russia to the hijacking and urban terrorism of the PLO and the Baader-Meinhof gang in the 1970s.

More radically, Berman also sees a link to the terrorism of al-Qaeda. The doomed assassin Hernani is not just the model for the classic anarchist or Marxist political terrorist, he is also a model for Mohamed Atta. As Malise Ruthven revealed in A Fury for God, the most enlightening of the flurry of books on al-Qaeda published in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks, there were connections between Islamism and totalitarian ideology in the early twentieth century. The founder of the the Islamic revivalist Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna, for example, was an admirer of the Nazis. Berman argues that the founder of modern Islamism, Sayyid Qutb, drew on the Marxist concept that 'truth can be obtained only through some kind of active struggle' in developing theories yoking the search for truth and martyrdom.

Berman draws similar links between fascism and Baathism, the Arab national socialism both of the fallen regime in Baghdad and of that which still rules neighbouring Syria. He quotes Sami al-Jundi, who helped found the Syrian Baath Party in the 1930s: 'We were racists, admiring Nazism, reading its books and the source of its thought, particularly Nietzsche.' So, paradoxically, the drive towards Muslim or Arab purity in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries has its roots in a European ideology promoting Aryan purity in the nineteenth century. 'The Baathists and the Islamists were two branches of a single impulse, which was Muslim totalitarianism - the Muslim variation of the European idea,' writes Berman.

But their common origins do not mean that Baathism and Islamism are the same, as radical Shia opponents of Saddam Hussein's rule discovered. Baathism is an essentially secular nationalist movement that wished to recreate the glory of the Arab conquests in a modern context. That is quite different from the most extreme Islamist radicalism which aims to establish a worldwide Islamic caliphate under sharia law.

At times Berman trips over the ingenuity of his own argument. The Romantic impulse of Victor Hugo's Hernani, glorying in death, assassination and suicide, mutates in Terror and Liberalism into every ideological monster of the twentieth century, including the totalitarian regimes of Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. To follow Berman's logic, the nihilistic suicide bombers of the Palestinian occupied territories are indistinguishable from the torturers of the concentration camps, a connection made by few but the most extreme representatives of the Israeli state.

The most chilling passage in Terror and Liberalism concerns what Berman describes as 'the most powerful of modern myths': that there is a single 'people of God' whose role it is to guide the world back to the path of righteousness, whatever the human cost. In this the godly are in cosmic conflict with the Satanic 'city dwellers of Babylon'.

Berman's version of this conflict has terrifying contemporary resonances. 'The war of Armageddon will take place. The subversive and polluted city dwellers of Babylon will be exterminated along with all their abominations. The Satanic forces from the mystic beyond will be fended off. The destruction will last only an hour. Afterward, when the extermination is complete, the reign of Christ will be established and will endure a thousand years. And the people of God will live in purity, submissive to God.' Today Babylon is better known as Hilla, a town south of Baghdad where the Reuters agency saw the first evidence of the American use of cluster bombs on civilians in Iraq.

In light of recent events, Berman's description of a paranoid 'people of God' convinced of its own righteousness, prepared to kill its enemies and sacrifice its own in pursuit of a realm of pure truth might just as easily apply to the United States as to its Baathist and Islamist foes.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2003/apr/20/history.politics

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Looks like an interesting read.

From the articles I've read by Berman - I would agree with his observation that what he calls 'Islamism' is a modern phenomenon and agree with the lines he draws from European fascism and communism with the Bathists and Islamists (Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda primarily). The common thread is certainly there.

However, I would disagree with his pro-Israeli stance that suicide bombings and glorifying martyrdoms etc are nihilistic - they aren't. The suicide bombing is not part of Islam, but rather a twentieth century phenomenon that was developed in Sri Lanka by the Tamil separatists. It was used in Israel and Palestine only after the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - and in response to it. The reasons behind the suicide bombings in Sri Lanka and Palestine are common.

However, it does seem like a fascinating read - so it goes on my list and will comment further once I've read the book.

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Here's a review of the book from salon.com:
http://dir.salon.com/books/feature/2003 ... ndex2.html

Quite detailed and interesting comments. What do you think FD - is it a fair treatment of the book?

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
^ Another example of one of those psycho Muslim moderates.

I'm pretty sure Hamas was already waging a terror campaign against Israel prior to any action by an Israeli against Pal-Arabs in order to disrupt the peace process (Hamas would repeat this pattern to great effect).

But what is interesting when Muslims apologize or find rather sick excuses for Islamic terrorism against non-Muslims, is to compare the excuses they come up with, with the total absence of justification or excuses made for Irish terrorism by Westerners.

The non-Muslim should always keep this in mind - non-Muslims never justify or romanticize Irish or Tamil terrorism, but Muslims will always find an excuse handy that they'll lob into the argument hoping to catch some nods of agreement.

Totally disgusting. As for romanticizing suicide bombing, I always go back to the Pal-Arabs (and others, such as the excuses given for the Times Square bomber) who justify the killing of non-Muslim civilians as 'retaliation' for the killing of Muslim terrorists.

Clearly the Islamic terrorists themselves are beyond deranged if they'll equate the killing of a terrorist commander to a bus load of civilians, but so are the Muslims who even attempt to toss out such an argument.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Commenting on another book you haven't read, eh. Really. You can do better.

LOL

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
FD - this review sort of hits on the head what I picked up from other places about Berman's point of view:

..
Disappointing, though, is Berman’s characterization of western intentions as wholly good and Islamist intentions as wholly evil. A good example of this is his analysis of messianic tendencies in religious systems like that of the Islamists: on the one side are the chosen people of God, fighting for purity and righteousness, and on the other side are the minions of Satan. The chosen of God are charged with combatting the forces of evil in order to create a “society cleansed of its pollutants and abominations.”

The obvious implication is that the Islamists see themselves as the “chosen of God,” but Berman fails to acknowledge that this sort of ideology plays a significant role for many in America as well. The Islamists are not too far away from certain segments of the American population in this regard, although there might be differences in their attitudes towards the use of force in order to realize their visions. Qutb’s critique of American culture reads very similarly to the critiques offered by conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists today.

In addition to ignoring the variety of perspectives in the West, Berman also tend to lump Islamists into too neat of a group and with too little diversity. Not all Islamists seeking a more theocratic society also advocate the use of violence and terrorism to achieve it — and not all Islamists who seek a greater integration of Muslim values into the political system want to see that system transformed into a theocracy.

A further mistake lies in describing suicide bombers as a wholly irrational force. Berman is simply one of many who seems to assume that anyone making a rational choice for how to order society will necessarily choose the American system

Thus, anyone who chooses differently must be not only irrational, but is in fact openly opting for irrationality over rationality.


But picks up on a point of agreement that I stated above:
On the positive side, Berman makes it clear that the leading intellectual figures behind the Islamic extremism of the 20th century (particularly Sayyid Qutb) have inspired an ordering of society that is fundamentally opposed to the modern, liberal state. In this way they are more similar to the totalitarian experiments of 20th century Europe than they are to the Islamic caliphate. Because the challenges they pose are so similar, Berman believes that the western response should be similar as well. It is, in effect, in liberalism’s best interests to oppose the Muslim fundamentalist assault on the foundations of liberalism.


http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews ... iberal.htm


Are the criticisms above fair?

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:From the articles I've read by Berman - I would agree with his observation that what he calls 'Islamism' is a modern phenomenon and agree with the lines he draws from European fascism and communism with the Bathists and Islamists (Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda primarily). The common thread is certainly there.


The main difference is, that Baathists imported Western ideologies. Islamists try to go back to their own core, arguing that the Muslim world is so backwards, because Muslims strayed from the original teachings of Islam. In that way it is more indigenous than all other ideologies. The admiration of the nazi ideology of the founders of Islamfundamentalism is very uncanny though.
I see a very uneasy triangle relationship among fascism, the (exterme) left and Islamofascism. Liberalism is flirting with Islamofascists, while completely ignoring what is stands for. Just look at another thread about naive blond tweenies held captive by Arab society in the Westbank. Churchill is very apt here: An appeaser feeds the crocodile, hoping it will eat him last

shafique wrote:However, I would disagree with his pro-Israeli stance that suicide bombings and glorifying martyrdoms etc are nihilistic - they aren't. The suicide bombing is not part of Islam, but rather a twentieth century phenomenon that was developed in Sri Lanka by the Tamil separatists. It was used in Israel and Palestine only after the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - and in response to it. The reasons behind the suicide bombings in Sri Lanka and Palestine are common.


Their was a Palestinian suicide mission before Baruch Goldstein:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

What Berman pionts out is that suicide bombings are glorified by whole Muslim populations. And he calls it barbaric. Here I agree with him. He argues it takes a form the same as erotic pleasure (with some serious sm in it). And in a very pervers way Baruch Goldstein is glorified more than other Arab suicide bombers in Muslim society. Just look how some people cannot stop talking about him.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
What do you say to the criticism that Berman is painting all Muslims with the same brush:

Disappointing, though, is Berman’s characterization of western intentions as wholly good and Islamist intentions as wholly evil. A good example of this is his analysis of messianic tendencies in religious systems like that of the Islamists: on the one side are the chosen people of God, fighting for purity and righteousness, and on the other side are the minions of Satan. The chosen of God are charged with combatting the forces of evil in order to create a “society cleansed of its pollutants and abominations.”


I'm not aware of any Muslim population that universally glorifies suicide bombings - not even the Palestinian Arab population (Muslim and Christian) who launched attacks.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/06/ ... 69813.html

Baruch Goldstein is indeed glorified by the minority of Israelis - but not by any Muslim or Palestinian. He is notorious for being a religously motivated terrorist who was a white colonist from America, soldier and one who bombed because of his opposition to the Peace Process and hatred of Muslims. He is further notorious on this forum for the fact that some refuse to condemn him as a religous terrorist.

Unless you are arguing that the west glorifies Bin-Laden, I can't see how you can argue that Goldstein is glorified by Arabs (or are you referring to the Jews who glorify Goldstein - you weren't explicit about who glorifies Goldstein 'more than other Arab suicide bombers' - and given that Goldstein was a caucasian NYer, he's not Arab).

But I do stand corrected about the one bombing in 1993 in the West Bank and other failed ones in 1993 - the 1994 attacks were in response to Goldstein's massacre, and I should have clarifed that the suicide bombings in Israel only started after Goldstien massacred the worshippers:
The Afula Bus suicide bombing was a car bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula, Israel, on April 6, 1994 in which eight Israeli civilians were killed and forty wounded.[1] It was the first suicide bombing attack to be carried out by Palestinian militants against Israeli civilians in Israel.[i][2] Launched by Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades in retaliation for the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre carried out by Baruch Goldstein, it took place at the end of the 40 day mourning period for his victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula_Bus_suicide_bombing

What is interesting is the relative treatment of Goldstein's massacre and the retaliatory ones carried out by Muslims.

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:What do you say to the criticism that Berman is painting all Muslims with the same brush


He doesn't brushes all Muslims with the same brush, but Islamists. Contrary to you obviously I donot consider Islamists as representative for every Muslim. Different Islamist groups of course are not one monolithic society. They share a lot though.

shafique wrote:I'm not aware of any Muslim population that universally glorifies suicide bombings


You can start with yourself, showing great sympathy for a mother, whose child is saved by Israeli doctors, that hopes that the same child blowes himself up in Jerusalem. And yes, Hamas has a culture of glorifying suicide terrorists.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Does Berman specify what proportion of Muslims he would call 'Islamists' - perhaps I would agree with him after all if he is restricting his opinions to those who believe in Qutb and Bin Laden (and we agree on the relative proportion these guys represent).

AS for my views concerning terrorism in general, and suicide bombing specifically - I'm surprised you are still labouring under any confusion over my views. I categorically denounce as unIslamic any terrorist act and totally agree that suicide is forbidden in Islam and that suicide bombers aren't to be glorified.

You also seem to be watering down your previous statement that
What Berman pionts out is that suicide bombings are glorified by whole Muslim populations.


Now it is 'Hamas a culture of glorifying suicide terrorists'. I could equally say that Kahanists have a culture of glorifying the memory of Goldstein. I mean, this report is as bad as any veneration of suicide bomber:

In 2010, Jewish settlers were criticized that during celebrations of Purim they sang songs praising Baruch Goldstein's massacre demonstratively in front of their Arab neighbours. A phrase from the song reads "Dr. Goldstein, there is none other like you in the world. Dr. Goldstein, we all love you… he aimed at terrorists' heads, squeezed the trigger hard, and shot bullets, and shot, and shot."

:shock:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 71,00.html

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:Does Berman specify what proportion of Muslims he would call 'Islamists'


No % is given.

shafique wrote:I categorically denounce as unIslamic any terrorist act


Definitions of terrorism and civilians differ greatly...

shafique wrote:and totally agree that suicide is forbidden in Islam


Ok, so suicide is forbidden.

shafique wrote:and that suicide bombers aren't to be glorified.


Well, the following is your remark to a mother wishing that her son blows himself up in Jerusalem:

shafique wrote:A moving and harrowing account by a woman who wishes the occupation of Jerusalem to end.


Sounds like what Berman would call the beginning of a wet dream... :bounce:
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
So, we again find that your argument relies on fanciful interpretations and selective quotes - but then again, I fully understand that you must try and rationalise the fact that it is the Muslim who is denouncing each and every act of terrorism, whilst the most extreme religious fanatic posting here refuses to do so. Sigh.

May I ask what is your estimate of the proportion of 'Islamists' to non-Islamist Muslims? Is your definition the equivalent of what we'd call 'extremist Muslim terrorists' or are you of the Spencer/Geller school of thought that all observant Muslims are required to take over the world, bwahaha?

And whilst we're quoting each other - you started a thread to discuss eh's hate-filled statement, rather than denounce it:
philosophy-dubai/the-only-time-muslims-seek-peace-when-they-need-reload-t42509.html

He who lives in glass houses...

Edit, my quote, in context here from this thread:
dubai-politics-talk/not-merciful-t42488.html

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:May I ask what is your estimate of the proportion of 'Islamists' to non-Islamist Muslims? Is your definition the equivalent of what we'd call 'extremist Muslim terrorists' or are you of the Spencer/Geller school of thought that all observant Muslims are required to take over the world, bwahaha?


I cannot give an estimate. What I can say, is that any Muslim striving to implement sharia is not a moderate. Anybody supporting lashes for fornicators/adulterers is not a moderate IMO. Same for those supporting the death penalty for homosexuals and condoning wife beating. I am not too familiar what Spencer/Geller think, but no, I certainly donot think that every Muslim is required to take over the world.

Which takes us back to what Berman tries to say. The liberals of today are backing those that support above mentioned attrocities againt the most basic human rights. And thats where the liberals lost to themselves and their ideals.

shafique wrote:And whilst we're quoting each other - you started a thread to discuss eh's hate-filled statement, rather than denounce it:
philosophy-dubai/the-only-time-muslims-seek-peace-when-they-need-reload-t42509.html


Do you denounce this quote by Shaikh Hamza Yousuf?:

The Muslim society has lost the ability of strategic thinking, which Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) exemplified by compromising on several points with the enemy when he signed the Treaty of Hudaibia, said leading American Muslim, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf, at a lecture on Monday.

Elaborating his point, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf said, “There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in the future like a lion.”


Never got an answer, only evasive copy and pastes.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
I didn't agree with your inferred meaning of the selective quote from Yousuf, but I did agree with Yousuf's fuller quotes I gave in the same thread on the subject. I'm really surprised you remember differently. Yousuf was pretty clear what his stance is of Muslims living with other faiths - and it was not what you wanted to portray in that snippet.

So, it appears that you don't have the bottle to give an estimate of what proportion of Muslims you consider 'Islamists'. By your definition, it appears anyone Muslim who believes that the laws revealed by God are good is an 'Islamist' . Then your definition is certainly different from what I would call 'extremists' who choose Qutb and Bin Laden over the interpretations of the majority of Muslims.

You just appear to be ashamed of stating that you believe observant Muslims are 'Islamists' and that Berman portrays them as 'evil'. The criticism levelled at him seems to be valid then.


Perhaps that is why you weren't sure whether eh was wrong when he stated:
event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


It's a shame you're not interested in an honest debate, but just seem to put a thin veneer over Islamophobic views.

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:I didn't agree with your inferred meaning of the selective quote from Yousuf, but I did agree with Yousuf's fuller quotes I gave in the same thread on the subject. I'm really surprised you remember differently. Yousuf was pretty clear what his stance is of Muslims living with other faiths - and it was not what you wanted to portray in that snippet.


Yeah, still no denouncement of:

“There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in the future like a lion.”


No evasion answers can hide that.

shafique wrote: By your definition, it appears anyone Muslim who believes that the laws revealed by God are good is an 'Islamist' .


I have no problem and no shame at all stating that anybody wanting to implement sharia is not a moderate. FWIW, I think there are a lot of moderate Muslims.

shafique wrote: Then your definition is certainly different from what I would call 'extremists' who choose Qutb and Bin Laden over the interpretations of the majority of Muslims.


To clarify, I donot consider a Muslim not being a moderate an extremist. Its a gliding scale.

shafique wrote: You just appear to be ashamed of stating that you believe observant Muslims are 'Islamists'


Which is not what I wrote. Not every observant Muslim wants to implement sharia. And not everybody wanting to implement sharia is an Islamist.

shafique wrote: Perhaps that is why you weren't sure whether eh was wrong when he stated:
event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


I still haven't seen this statement denounced, after that I can answer:

“There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in the future like a lion.”
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Why can't you have a straightforward, honest debate without having to resort to silly little snippets and fantastical interpretations?

You give me one quote and say it is Yousuf stating Muslims can't live in peace with non-Muslims, and yet when I look to see what he has actually said on the subject and quote it in full, your spin (not his) is exposed for what it is.

Can you not make a rational argument without have to resort to selective quotes?


But, to be fair, you are less extreme than eh and Spencer - in that your definition of an Islamist is anyone who wishes to implement Shariah. Shariah as Spencer and eh portray it, is indeed a scary prospect. And indeed, as it is implemented in Aceh (for example) it is scary indeed.

I guess we just differ perhaps on what we consider as Sharia and what we consider as implement it. Spencer is clear - he sees Mooslims wanting to impose their supremacist ideals over non-Muslims and impose 'dhimmitude'. This is pure loon theology and is laughably easy to expose.

It remains to be seen whether Berman is as extreme as Spencer or whether he shares your definition of 'Islamist'. As I said, the criticism that he casts all 'Islamists' as evil sounds like a pretty severe criticism of this book.

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Yes, I already realized it is impossible to denounce what Shaikh Hamza Yousuf said :

The Muslim society has lost the ability of strategic thinking, which Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) exemplified by compromising on several points with the enemy when he signed the Treaty of Hudaibia, said leading American Muslim, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf, at a lecture on Monday.

Elaborating his point, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf said, “There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in the future like a lion.”


It is really not that hard:

-Yes, I denouce above statement
-No, I donot denounce above statement

A moderate Muslim would have no problems denouncing above statement.

Anyways, there is already a thread about Yusuf. If there is anything new, I suggest posting it there. Comments and thoughts on Berman I would post in this thread.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
It appears that you are fixated on snippets. Sigh.

'There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in future like a lion' can be interpreted in a number of ways, and is the only quote you gave in your argument.

His other statements (which I quoted in full) are categoric and clear, and put this one in context. I agree with his statements and disagree with your implied slur. You were exposed in a classic loon tactic of imposing your view on a snippet. Are you surprised that I disagree with your interpretation after it has been exposed?

And let's recall that all of the above was just your way of not denouncing eh's statement about all Muslims.

Doesn't the hate get to you after a while?

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
I'll repeat myself:

Anyways, there is already a thread about Yusuf. If there is anything new, I suggest posting it there. Comments and thoughts on Berman I would post in this thread.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Fair enough.

So, we are left with wondering whether Berman is as extreme as Spencer in his definition of 'Islamists' who he (Berman) views as universally evil according to the review posted before, or whether he shares FD's definition of an Islamist as someone who wishes to impose Shariah.

In my mind, I think the critique of Berman painting all 'Islamists' as evil is a hard one to justify.

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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
shafique wrote:whether he shares FD's definition of an Islamist as someone who wishes to impose Shariah.


This is what FD wrote a few posts ago:

Flying Dutchman wrote:not everybody wanting to implement sharia is an Islamist.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 04, 2010
Ok, may I then ask you for your definition of an Islamist

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:May I ask what is your estimate of the proportion of 'Islamists' to non-Islamist Muslims? Is your definition the equivalent of what we'd call 'extremist Muslim terrorists' or are you of the Spencer/Geller school of thought that all observant Muslims are required to take over the world, bwahaha?


I cannot give an estimate. What I can say, is that any Muslim striving to implement sharia is not a moderate.


I took that to mean that the 'non-Moderate' Muslims were 'Islamists'. You must have another definition then.

(Edit - where on the 'gliding' scale does a non-moderate Muslim become extremist, and is this synonymous with your definition of 'Islamist'?)

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 05, 2010
Good question.

No one ever seems to ask it enough before they toss a few adjectives around.

Moderate this, peaceful that.



Simple answer, any Muslim who takes a literal view of the Koran is an extremist and an Islamist - as are all Muslims who support the OIC's agenda to curb Western freedoms because they (Muslims) do not like our freedoms.
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 05, 2010
Thanks eh - I presume you still stand by your extremist statement (the one of many):

event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.

philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961-30.html#p341839

But I'm curious, do you REALLY believe in the loon rhetoric that 'Mooslims do not like our freedoms'?


That said, I asked FD for his definition of an Islamist - it will be interesting to see if he shares your definition of 'extremist and Islamist'. Then we have to see what Berman says - he considers all Islamists evil, something that you would seem to agree with (I mean you say peace with Muslims is impossible - not just 'Islamists')

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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 05, 2010
But I'm curious, do you REALLY believe in the loon rhetoric that 'Mooslims do not like our freedoms'?



Yes, that's why Muslims are trying curb Westerners from drawing pictures of Muhammad. Because they don't hate our freedoms.
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Re: Terror and Liberalism Oct 06, 2010
A good example. George Galloways Viva Palestina has no problem to be associated with fascists, with a very curious history in Lebanon (remember gorgeous George also admired Saddam):

So Viva Palestina, in their quest to break the, er, siege of Gaza, have arrived in Syria where VP trustee Kevin Ovenden addressed the welcoming party while standing underneath flags of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party.

Once you take a closer look at the SSNP it becomes very clear that no self-respecting socialist or humanitarian would go anywhere near them, let alone let themselves be photographed standing under their emblems.

But when you believe that solidarity with the Palestinians requires commitment to the elimination of Israel, “you can’t be too choosy” about whom you support.

In 1985 the Lebanese Shia militia Amal were joined by the Lebanese Army 6th Brigade (also Shia) and the SSNP in a war against the PLO in the Palestinian refugee camps.


http://hurryupharry.org/2010/10/05/viva-palestina-stands-with-fascist-killers-of-palestinians/
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Re: Terror And Liberalism Oct 07, 2010
FD - for us to have a rational debate, we should at least be aware of what definitions we are using.

shafique wrote:That said, I asked FD for his definition of an Islamist - it will be interesting to see if he shares your definition of 'extremist and Islamist'. Then we have to see what Berman says - he considers all Islamists evil, something that you[eh] would seem to agree with (I mean you [eh] say peace with Muslims is impossible - not just 'Islamists')

Cheers,
Shafique


One of the main criticisms of the pro-Israeli fans is that they routinely use slurs in place of debating the actual issues, such as legality of Israeli occupation, the realities of the occupation (such as Israeli control of 60% of the West Bank) - but mostly the notorious name-calling. There's also the misleading use of language (such as 'settler' instead of 'colonialist' and 'settlement' instead of 'colony' - when applied to occupied territories captured in 1967 and not recognised as part of Israel by the world - let alone the illegal annexation of territories such as Golan and East Jerusalem - which itself is misleading, as 70% of the area labelled East Jerusalem and illegally annexed is West Bank territory that was re-named by Israel)

To avoid this accusation here, let's at least get a full understanding of what you understand an 'Islamist' to be - and whether the criticism that Berman views all 'Islamists' as evil is a valid one or not.

However, if you aren't actually interested in debating but rather point-scoring and regurgitating of misinformation, please indicate so and we don't need to waste any more time in regards to holding a debate.


Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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