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Bethsmum wrote:TJ you are truely the most sweet and compassionate person. A joy to be around.

Thanks Sweetie for your kind words. Now..I'm blushing... !



-- Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:56 am --

Kanelli,

That's what I was afraid of....you misinterpreting my intentions.

You didn't like anyone questioning your motives, but yet you, yourself, are guilty of the same.

In fact, I was really surprised to hear that. I re-read my post again, and I didn't find anything in it that, in any way, would give such an impression.

To the contrary, I was instead praising you for starting this thread..

Kay, you know that I've always had high regards for you, for being blanced, polite and level headed.

I didn't post my opinion above to sympathize with (or support) BM.

BM is a well spoken lady, and can defend her position quite well without my help.

I was simply stating my own opinion, and I still stand by it.

Again, no one is 100% free of all ethnic biases, period. Some of us would like to think so, but they're only fooling themselves. For example, If you rented your property to blacks, and they left it in a horrible condition, you'd be rather reluctant to rent it again to blacks -- even if they were decent blacks. Are you in this case a racist.?? I don't think so!!! You're simply exercising your legitimate preference for non-blacks (based on a valid past experience.) If you were a racist, you would've not rented your property to blacks in the first place.

I've hired many an employee for my department, perhaps in the hundreds, and I would be lying big time if I said I didn't have a preference towards certain nationalities. Not because I'm a a racist (I don't think I am), but because of my past experiences. I found people from certain nationalities perform better than others with certain tasks!!

So let's get real, people... and stop fooling ourselves!!! Let's view the world for what it is, not for what we would like it to be!!!

Well....gotta run now, kids!

Tom Jones, did I ever specifically refer to you? You've jumped to your own conclusions.

By stating your opinions about hiring bias you are contributing to the discussion, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

I can still disagree that we should accept racial and religious bias when hiring based on our own experiences, especially if extremely limited. Some people are fine with their biases but kick up a stink when they are on the receiving end of bias. Yes, you could say that is life, but it is still an injustice that shouldn't be happening.

I have not posted on this forum for a long time, and visited it recently. I was forced to write (and going through the hassle of retreiving my password etc.) after reading Kanelli's perfectly reasonable comment, and then BM's unreasonable reply! Someone said "bigot", and I would have to agree wholeheartedly. I know the Brits a little bit and some words come to mind of which bigot is one; racist is another (of course the epitome of racism was Hitler and his Nazis, remember?). You hate a particular race of humans BM, and yet you go and sit amongst them in their country? Whats the name for that? Hypocritical??

I remember this woman in Dubai who lost her teen daughter after a quad bike crash.
She bled to death on the scene because the ER who showed up: all Muslims men , refused to "touch" HER
Who is the racist, who is the bigot? Had the ER company refused to hire Muslims, she probably would have lived.

Herve - probably I'm missing something here - you're a fiction writer, aren't you?

However, may I suggest you try less fantastical stories next time - doctors in Dubai refusing to treat a girl because they are Muslim men is pretty 'out-there'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Herve, I wish I could have asked you about Dubai BEFORE your "bad" experience there. You are doing a good job promoting your book, I am mildly tempted to even read a couple of pages sometime if I can lay my hands on a free copy sometime.

Sorry guys Herve is right in his story! Plus there was an incident in Saudi I think a couple of years ago when a fire broke out at a girls school, and the MEN locked them all in to burn to death because tyhey didn't have time to put their head coverings on.

It was well documented.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

UAE, Saudi, etc., ...third world, 3rd class people, have a long way to go before they reach civilization. We all know what to expect there. You still choose to be amongst them, though. Here is a story from a friend of mine whose car was smashed head on by a white guy, in the UK, and my friend (who was not the least bit at fault) was subjected to horrifying abuse and intimidation by the Police. Thats what I call bigoted.

zonker wrote:UAE, Saudi, etc., ...third world, 3rd class people, have a long way to go before they reach civilization. We all know what to expect there. You still choose to be amongst them, though. Here is a story from a friend of mine whose car was smashed head on by a white guy, in the UK, and my friend (who was not the least bit at fault) was subjected to horrifying abuse and intimidation by the Police. Thats what I call bigoted.

And what's the difference between that and local at fault here blaming everyone else?

Harsh reality shafique, but you live in a unhuman , dark age society under ruthless Islamic rules, it is a fact that the ER Muslims men would not touch the injured girl because it was ramadan.
Next time you call me a liar go bury back your head in the sand.

My next book will be to tell of hundreds other cases like this through the letters I receive.

For everyone else in this forum this is the email I recieved from the mother of the girl who died, and see what Muslims do:

Mr Herve
My tragic experience is that I lost my only daughter in a quad bike accident, she went with her friend to the meadows to hang out with her classmates, they had a quad bike, in a place where they have written rules that quad bikes are not allowed, they say she was driving while her classmate was sat in the back, Gabriella couldnt even drive a bicycle, it happened in front of the security guard and he didnt stop them. A French and Belgian family invited me to their house in the meadows 2 months after the accident and told me that I should sue them all, the ambulance took 40 minutes to arrive my daughter was on the floor all that time alive and moaning and the security guards didnt know first aid, Emril dont train them until after 6 months when they are confirmed in their jobs, to save money, plus they said because it was ramadan they can not touch a female?!?! The French gentleman told me that he called the police, the police said its internal and that Emril should handle it! Those neighbors went to the quad owners house the mother of the quad owner didnt even get out of her house to check whats going on, her husband works for arabtec, they are the company who built the meadows and he knows people high up, so they let his son have the quad and drive it in the compound! The police report addressed Gaby as "accused"! She died, the quad wasnt ours, how can she be the accused?! Every lawyer I approached had an excuse not to take the case, because I wanted to sue Emaar and Emril for negligence. My first lawyer told me that there is no statute of limitation for civil cases and that I can sue them anytime, just 2 weeks ago I found out that there is or its been changed to 3 years, Gaby passed away on 19 Oct 2005, so I cant sue them anymore!
My late husband was in Dubai since 1976, he did a business wasnt successful, he had heart attack and died in 2001, after leaving me in debt, I started working again 1 year before he died with very little salary, but had no choice, coudnt leave dubai, though I begged my employer "Emirates airlines" to transfer me to beirut even with less salary, they didnt! now after my daughter I am ruined emotionally too, and after 30 years in dubai, I have no rights! In this part of the world autopsy is not allowed, the ER doctor at rashid hospital said the only injury she had was on her arm, just bruises, but the cause of death, "possible internal bleeding" but I think she was too scared specially lying down on the ground for 40 minutes! Just the thought of it kills me everyday! Gaby was very scared of doctors and ambulances, she has never been sick in her life!
2 palestinian families were involved in the accident, they didnt have the decency to call and say a word, didnt hear anything from emaar or emril too! As if Gaby was a commodity, but she was my life and what drives me crazy that I was so protective of her, specially after my husband's death!
My sincere respect to you for escaping this place where there is no human or civil rights and writing a book about it.

Sonia Babikian

Chocoholic wrote:

zonker wrote:UAE, Saudi, etc., ...third world, 3rd class people, have a long way to go before they reach civilization. We all know what to expect there. You still choose to be amongst them, though. Here is a story from a friend of mine whose car was smashed head on by a white guy, in the UK, and my friend (who was not the least bit at fault) was subjected to horrifying abuse and intimidation by the Police. Thats what I call bigoted.

And what's the difference between that and local at fault here blaming everyone else?

Right, there is no difference, so there are bigots everywhere, and BM's response to Kanelli's comment (OP) takes the cake.....
I rest my case

Herve, according to what you just posted the security guards were the ones not to touch the girl, not the ER staff. The security guards have no training in how to treat someone from critical accidents and if they are the last person to touch her and she dies they can be held responsible and have to pay blood money. Emril security guards get yelled at by everyone when they try to enforce rules and they don't get police back-up so when we lived in the area we saw the guards doing pretty much nothing. Screwed up situation and screwed up rules, I agree. I guess we can see it isn't safe to trust other parents with kids or let your child play with other kids unsupervised. Sad.

kanelli wrote:Tom Jones, did I ever specifically refer to you? You've jumped to your own conclusions.

By stating your opinions about hiring bias you are contributing to the discussion, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

I can still disagree that we should accept racial and religious bias when hiring based on our own experiences, especially if extremely limited. Some people are fine with their biases but kick up a stink when they are on the receiving end of bias. Yes, you could say that is life, but it is still an injustice that shouldn't be happening.

Kanelli, I wonder if you live in the real world? I always wondered what it would be like to live in Etopia.

zonker wrote:...I know the Brits a little bit and some words come to mind of which bigot is one; racist is another...

Whats the name for that? Hypocritical??, I'd say so.

Regards

Mr. Herve, thats a sad story. Any death by such callous negligence is tragic. But is it the first such incident? Or the last? Sonia Babikian (is she Iranian?) lived there since 1976; I lived in Dubai for 2 years and realized that non of the expats had any rights there, some of us even less than the others. I started to make plans to get out of it as soon as this realization dawned on me. Dubai was just glitter. Its the original tinsel town. There was even a time when I was planning to buy real estate there, but procrastinated , and then it all crashed.

Dillon wrote:

zonker wrote:...I know the Brits a little bit and some words come to mind of which bigot is one; racist is another...

Whats the name for that? Hypocritical??, I'd say so.

Regards

Well you knw there is a saying in this place 'what's the difference between a racist and an expat?' - '3 weeks!'

zonker wrote:I have not posted on this forum for a long time, and visited it recently. I was forced to write (and going through the hassle of retreiving my password etc.) after reading Kanelli's perfectly reasonable comment, and then BM's unreasonable reply! Someone said "bigot", and I would have to agree wholeheartedly. I know the Brits a little bit and some words come to mind of which bigot is one; racist is another (of course the epitome of racism was Hitler and his Nazis, remember?). You hate a particular race of humans BM, and yet you go and sit amongst them in their country? Whats the name for that? Hypocritical??

For your information, I don't hate anybody, no I will correct myself there, I do hate my daughters husband. That does not mean I hate a particular race of people. May I suggest you get all the facts before expressing your opinion about me? I think you are right when you say you know the Brits a little bit, little being the operative word. I don't speak for Brits, I speak for myself.

-- Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:26 am --

shafique wrote:Herve - probably I'm missing something here - you're a fiction writer, aren't you?

However, may I suggest you try less fantastical stories next time - doctors in Dubai refusing to treat a girl because they are Muslim men is pretty 'out-there'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, that's the second time I've seen you be particularly cruel on this forum.

-- Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:31 am --

zonker wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:

zonker wrote:UAE, Saudi, etc., ...third world, 3rd class people, have a long way to go before they reach civilization. We all know what to expect there. You still choose to be amongst them, though. Here is a story from a friend of mine whose car was smashed head on by a white guy, in the UK, and my friend (who was not the least bit at fault) was subjected to horrifying abuse and intimidation by the Police. Thats what I call bigoted.

And what's the difference between that and local at fault here blaming everyone else?

Right, there is no difference, so there are bigots everywhere, and BM's response to Kanelli's comment (OP) takes the cake.....
I rest my case

Yes, there are bigots everywhere. You being one yourself.

Yes, there are bigots everywhere. You being one yourself.[/quote]

I become bigotted when I come across another bigot. You could say I am a bigot's bigot

herve wrote:Harsh reality shafique, but you live in a unhuman , dark age society under ruthless Islamic rules, it is a fact that the ER Muslims men would not touch the injured girl because it was ramadan.
Next time you call me a liar go bury back your head in the sand.

My next book will be to tell of hundreds other cases like this through the letters I receive.

For everyone else in this forum this is the email I recieved from the mother of the girl who died, and see what Muslims do:

... the ambulance took 40 minutes to arrive my daughter was on the floor all that time alive and moaning and the security guards didnt know first aid, Emril dont train them until after 6 months when they are confirmed in their jobs, to save money, plus they said because it was ramadan they can not touch a female?!?! ..

ER I took to mean 'Emergency Room' - not Emrill security guards who aren't trained in first aid. I presume that the ambulance paramedics did indeed treat the injured girl.

The issue seems to be the time it took the ambulance to arrive and the fact that there weren't any people trained in first aid - not the fact that the untrained security guards were job-worths (I mean, if they were untrained Hindu or Buddhist security guards - would they have saved the injured child or done more than the other adults who were there?)

Are you really sure that this tragic event justifies a anti-Muslim bias?



Cheers,
Shafique

zonker wrote:Yes, there are bigots everywhere. You being one yourself.

I become bigotted when I come across another bigot. You could say I am a bigot's bigot [/quote]



Well I give you credit for admitting you are a bigot. I'm afraid I cannot take credit for your conversion, you have been one all along, it just took me to show you. Why even DDS was slagging of the French last night on another topic, saying he was wearing BM's hat. I obviously have more influence round here than I give myself credit for.

Note to BM, Try to use your influence to convert TJ from a United supporter to City Bad luck the other night TJ, contrary to what Mr F thinks, you can't win em all.

Well it seems we all have our prejudices except the holier than thou Miss K. I have to say Kanelli that you claim to have started this thread to show me the error of my ways, I still go with my theory that you saw what you thought was a grand way of paying me back in some odd way, but you have failed miserably on both accounts. I'm afraid BM is made of sterner stuff after all.

-- Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:14 pm --

shafique wrote:

herve wrote:Harsh reality shafique, but you live in a unhuman , dark age society under ruthless Islamic rules, it is a fact that the ER Muslims men would not touch the injured girl because it was ramadan.
Next time you call me a liar go bury back your head in the sand.

My next book will be to tell of hundreds other cases like this through the letters I receive.

For everyone else in this forum this is the email I recieved from the mother of the girl who died, and see what Muslims do:

... the ambulance took 40 minutes to arrive my daughter was on the floor all that time alive and moaning and the security guards didnt know first aid, Emril dont train them until after 6 months when they are confirmed in their jobs, to save money, plus they said because it was ramadan they can not touch a female?!?! ..

ER I took to mean 'Emergency Room' - not Emrill security guards who aren't trained in first aid. I presume that the ambulance paramedics did indeed treat the injured girl.

The issue seems to be the time it took the ambulance to arrive and the fact that there weren't any people trained in first aid - not the fact that the untrained security guards were job-worths (I mean, if they were untrained Hindu or Buddhist security guards - would they have saved the injured child or done more than the other adults who were there?)

Are you really sure that this tragic event justifies a anti-Muslim bias?



Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I'm sure Herve can speak for himself but I'm afraid I have to say you are being particularly uncharitable here. I really thought you were better than this. I gave you credit for being an intelligent person. Herve has had his and his wifes lives shattered by Emiratis and he now faces a huge Court case in the US in the New Year. If that doesn't teint your view of the world then what can? If you had an ounce of decency you would cut him some slack. Your comment about him being a fiction writer didn't go over my head either. You are messing about in the gutter just like the rest of us.

kanelli wrote:I was shocked by BM's statements and didn't want to derail the thread containing them, so yes I started a new thread. MCL, there are plenty of threads on this forum that are non-Dubai related, so this thread is not out of place in the slightest. I'm curious as to why you've suddenly singled this non-Dubai related thread out and only chosen now to puke over it?

For starters this thread is irrelevant to Dubai. Secondly it's a matter of personal opinion. And finally there is in nothing realistic about it.

kanelli wrote:If anyone posts an opinion on here it is fair game. If we are supposed to keep our opinions personal there wouldn't be much content on this forum.

Naa I dnt think the forum needs that kind of charity. Save IT!!!

kanelli wrote:I don't need to portray BM in a bad light, she did a perfectly fine job of that herself. My comments have been on the content of what she said, and not personally attacking her. (But yes, I did in this post just use the "b" word for the first time.)

That's purely your opinion.

You basically agree then that your sole motive was to stir things up. How very compassionate indeed.

Besides BM opinions are not as black and white as you make it out to be. Your argument is factually void and bitterness replete!!!

What's funny is who gave you the right to judge anybody your highness? Who put you on that pedestal? Newton once said every action has an equal and opposite reaction. BM's opinions are hardly one made over the internet, debating with strangers on a forum. They seem to outcomes of her own personal life. Weather one agrees with her or not is a personal issue and questioning that on a public forum is something I find highly inappropriate. I mean are you afraid to pm BM or sometin? Why is it you seek validity from everyone else for ur slanted understanding of the issue?

I hope you realize it is possible to have a thought process that is not in agreement with yours. But I guess to you, anyone ur in disagreement with is a Bigot rit?

Bethsmum wrote:Shaf, I'm sure Herve can speak for himself but I'm afraid I have to say you are being particularly uncharitable here. I really thought you were better than this. I gave you credit for being an intelligent person. Herve has had his and his wifes lives shattered by Emiratis and he now faces a huge Court case in the US in the New Year. If that doesn't teint your view of the world then what can? If you had an ounce of decency you would cut him some slack. Your comment about him being a fiction writer didn't go over my head either. You are messing about in the gutter just like the rest of us.

I'm not sure why my post to Herve reflects badly on my intelligence BM - he cited an example of ER Muslim men refusing to touch an injured girl because of their religion and speculated that had they not been Muslim, the girl may have survived. I stated this was a work of fiction - and I still stand by that view.

I can concede that had he said 'Emrill security guards' instead of 'ER Muslim men' - I would not have been as scathing in my remark about being a fiction writer.

The Emrill security guards aren't Emirati, so I really can't see what his problems with Emiratis has to do with citing this incident as an example to back up a view that discriminating against Muslims for employment is an acceptable form of discrimination or is justifiable.

There is also no discernible evidence that the religion of the untrained guards put the girl's life at greater risk - from all accounts it appears to be the lack of anyone present with any medical experience/training (be it the neighbours, parents etc who were also present). Emrill may have some blame here - but it is a stretch to say that it is the religion of the untrained guards that is a fault.

Certainly, having been been slighted, or worse, by people who happen to be Muslim/Jewish/Black/Female may indeed explain the bitterness that lies behind the view that stereotyping Muslims/Jews/Blacks/Women is ok - but no one is really asking for a psycho-analysis of one's prejudices, unless I missed that post.

I've no problem with people stating their beliefs or views - but I do almost always challenge any evidence they may provide for these views, especially if they appear to be misrepresented or made up.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you have missed my point, I will endevour to clarify what I meant. When placed under severe pressure, is it not conceivable that a person may have some irrational thoughts?

BM - yes, when someone is under pressure it is conceivable that a person may have irrational or even delusional thoughts.

I would merely maintain that it would be wrong to not label these irrational and delusional thoughts as 'irrational' and 'delusional' - whilst maintaining that they are indeed entitled to hold these thoughts. I'm only challenging the 'evidence' produced to support those thoughts in this case.

Friends now?

Cheers,
Shafique

I think Herve is a credible person and don't disagree with his other stories or disbelieve them but in this case he was just not clear of the facts ar did not make them come across clearly the first time around.

I know there is much wrong here but what is right has to be said it is, having witnessed first hand and been at the secne of many terrible accidents and services of the paramedics I can say they are top notch and have very quick response times.

The only thing I can see is the goof up of the rent a cops at Emril who are most probably making in the tune of 800 to 1200 dhs a month so don't expect any miracles from them. And most probably panicked and delayed in calling the services aswell, trying to sort out the mess themselves first. I know and seen this happen before, even at the slightest hint of trouble the first thing these goon do is call there supervisors, who in turn call thier and so on and everybody starts panicking without a clue or the simple idea to dial 999. Another case I can relay to you is a terrible crash on Abu Dhabi highway in which atleast one person was killed. Surprisingly no one knew what do and I had to order one of the buggers to call 999 as my phone was still in car and far and with in less than 4 or 5 minutes the paramedics were there. Sometimes people lack even the most basic common sense or get panicked and loose sense.

Anyway Herve in this case made false accusations about the paramedics maybe he did not intend to, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. And just in case anyone is wondering. In Dubai and I believe in Abu dhabi too now only the Ambulance driver is Emarati accompined by atleast one Phillipino paramedic. So chances of that happening are nil, ramadan or not.

Bethsmum and MCL, like I said, my motive was to discuss the topic of Bethsmum's comments in another thread, not about stirring things up or trying to attack Bethsmum personally. Bethsmum, don't flatter yourself in thinking that I have been waiting here for an opportunity to pounce on you for something - that's plain arrogance to believe so.

MCL, you seem to be brilliantly ignorant of the fact that this forum contains a huge amount of non-Dubai content. Why do you have your boxers in a knot about this thread? By the looks of your hostility the knot is pretty tight!

This is kanelli - like it or not. I have always been this way on the forum since 2005 - starting threads on topics of interest and discussing controversial things. It doesn't matter who could have written what Bethsmum did - this thread would still have been started and my opinions would be the same.

Don't like this thread? Move along and read something else. Pretty simple!

Now, If I was to follow your example, I would be jumpimg up and down demanding what this topic is all about. I don't believe I'm arrogant, what is arrogance is you starting a topic with your 'intention' of getting me to see the error of my ways.
Yes, it's very easy for you to say move along if you don't like the content of this topic. When this topic has been started from something I said elsewhere I believe I have a right to contribute to it. If you don't like what you are reaping then you need to rethink your stategy going forward.

herve wrote:....but you live in a unhuman , dark age society under ruthless Islamic rules, it is a fact that

Actually a dark age society with EXAGGERATED islamic rules , with MENTALLY UNFIT RULERS

shafique wrote:BM - yes, when someone is under pressure it is conceivable that a person may have irrational or even delusional thoughts.

I would merely maintain that it would be wrong to not label these irrational and delusional thoughts as 'irrational' and 'delusional' - whilst maintaining that they are indeed entitled to hold these thoughts. I'm only challenging the 'evidence' produced to support those thoughts in this case.

Friends now?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, Herve received a very moving email from a lady who lost her daughter. He is obviously very emotional, I didn't think your grilling was very nice. I can see where you are coming from but at the end of the day have a bit of compassion for him. I must admit that when I read your post which refered to him as a fictional writer I thought you were refering to his book. and I thought that a particularly cruel thing to say.
And yes, why wouldn't we be friends? We are all adult enough to be able to argue our points and then draw a line.
BTW, update on the UK bid for the World Cup. My source says that the closing speechs from Messrs Beckham, Windsor and Cameron went very well in Zurich this morning, things are looking good and we should have some news later today. Fingers crossed. I don't want to rubbish the Spanish bid, it may result in yet another topic to the detrement of BM

I really had to laugh, what with all the talk about de-railing threads, what does the England bid for staging the World Cup have to do with this thread?