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Courtesy of the guys at loonwatch:

We have often heard about horror stories from Saudia Arabia where a woman is raped and along with her attacker is accused of committing fornication and then flogged or at least sentenced to be flogged. Some might think that this sort of thing could never happen anywhere else, but something equally egregious occurred here in the USA.

A Christian church found out that one of its parishioner raped a fellow parishioner twice, impregnating her. What did they do? They sheltered the rapist, made him apologize for raping the girl and made the girl apologize for becoming pregnant.




http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/police-girl-raped-then-relocated


I'm actually looking forward to the obligatory 'but the mooslims are worse' excuse - I'm not sure how it will be couched though... so let's see.

Cheers,
Shafique

Haha, Shafique my man, you should start a Mooshlem Shelter of your own. You make a great protector.

Lets stop making assumptions on the fanbois here. It would be something if YOU proved them wrong for a change!

That would be like biting a bullet for you.
Thats the way YOU are going to couch it from now on.

Hey, I like to oblige and I'm pretty open about my views. I mean, eh now thinks twice about posting in the religion section!

You're right - perhaps I was being a bit harsh and assumed eh would jump to the defence of his fellow American Christians brethren and blame the mooslims. Kudos to him that he hasn't - perhaps this is indefensible??

cheers,
Shafique

Religion in its essence is indefensible. I won't even start.

The Muslims can barely hold their joy over this news.

Just like the Hutaree terrorists, now Muslims have something to wag their bony finger at - "Ah huh! Christians fanatics are just repressive and numerous as our fanatics!"

Relativism at its finest.

Well, it did happen in 1997 and in your country - and who knows how many more instances are kept hushed up by the Churches?

As I said above, kudos for not even attempting to link this act by your fellow Christians to Islam!

BTW - this took place in New Hampshire, and if my geography doesn't let me down, this is OUTSIDE the Bible Belt (right eh?)

Cheers,
Shafique

The victim said Phelps told her she would be put up for "church discipline," where parishioners go before the congregation to apologize for their sins.
..

"He told me that I should be happy that I didn't live in Old Testament times because I would have been stoned."

A notable difference here is that

In Saudi (and the UAE for that matter), the justice system does little to discourage this sort of thing happening.

In the US there are severe sentences in place that would send this guy to jail for a very long time... if convicted.
Why he probably won't be convicted is another matter.

It happens regardless of faith.

The difference is what is done about it.
The arabs always get their man, but the women are only worth 1 camel, whereas men are worth 2, so the male gets off easy.
The western justice system have more difficulty in getting their man, so they cannot enforce the law as often as they should.

It should be noted that this girl was a baptist. Pastors oversee churches and are allowed to marry as opposed to catholic priests. The term "christianity" covers several faiths, catholicism being the largest amongst christianity. Baptists fall under christianity, but they have a different practice than that of catholics, protestants, presbyterian, etc.

Catholics and Protestants are not that extreme.
I was thinking a bit more cultish, but then again, the Baptists are extreme enough to pass the buck to god.

benwj - far be it for me to support the Saudi authorities, but I have to say that I would be very surprised if the Saudis would harbour a rapist and make the rape victim apologise to a congregation (and cite the Quran in support of this stance).

I certainly would not characterise this Church's actions as representative of what Jesus taught or what Christians generally would condone - but I think that in pretty much any religion what this Pastor did is beyond the pale.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey eh - you're not from New Hampshire are you?

I would have guessed you came from the deep south or other parts of the Bible belt - but given there are crazees up north as well, I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I'd still do a friendly wager that you're Texan. (Where we know only s.....s and q.....s come from - which are you boy? )

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:benwj - far be it for me to support the Saudi authorities, but I have to say that I would be very surprised if the Saudis would harbour a rapist and make the rape victim apologise to a congregation (and cite the Quran in support of this stance).

Generally speaking, yes. But I am sure that there are Saudis who would do this, not that I am going to tar them all with the same brush. Just as I am not going to tar all Baptists with the same brush.

Although I stand by my generalizations of the Sharia vs US justice systems that allow it to happen.

-- Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:03 pm --

shafique wrote:Hey eh - you're not from New Hampshire are you?

I would have guessed you came from the deep south or other parts of the Bible belt - but given there are crazees up north as well, I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I'd still do a friendly wager that you're Texan. (Where we know only s.....s and q.....s come from - which are you boy? )

Cheers,
Shafique

You talkin' to me?

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:benwj - far be it for me to support the Saudi authorities, but I have to say that I would be very surprised if the Saudis would harbour a rapist and make the rape victim apologise to a congregation (and cite the Quran in support of this stance).

Generally speaking, yes. But I am sure that there are Saudis who would do this, not that I am going to tar them all with the same brush. Just as I am not going to tar all Baptists with the same brush.

Well, as I said - I would be extremely surprised if any Muslim used the Quran in the way these Baptists used the Bible to make a rape victim apologise.

It is interesting that you say 'I am sure there are Saudis who would do this' and seem to base this view on:

benwj wrote:Although I stand by my generalizations of the Sharia vs US justice systems that allow it to happen.

Which brings me to my well-worn argument that this case happened in the US and by Christians, DESPITE the laws saying this is illegal - and therefore begs the question, would there be more such crimes in the US if the law was more lenient? If not, then the legal system isn't effective - and if it does - then what is causing the US citizens to want to rape girls and then use the Bible to condone it (i.e. how many more would do it, but are stopped by the law?). (BTW Shariah also says rape is illegal, btw - and in this case there is no Shariah court who would make the victim apologise).


-- Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:03 pm --

benwj wrote:You talkin' to me?

I see no one else here.

(Nope, I'm asking our boy, eh)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Which brings me to my well-worn argument that this case happened in the US and by Christians, DESPITE the laws saying this is illegal - and therefore begs the question, would there be more such crimes in the US if the law was more lenient? If not, then the legal system isn't effective - and if it does - then what is causing the US citizens to want to rape girls and then use the Bible to condone it (i.e. how many more would do it, but are stopped by the law?). (BTW Shariah also says rape is illegal, btw - and in this case there is no Shariah court who would make the victim apologise).

I think I see where you are going regarding the discipline of US citizens…
Let’s safely assume that in a lawless US society rape would be more common.
But given that arab men already get away with murder (not literally), they in effect are already living in a somewhat lawless society and deserve credit for their remarkable self-control by not committing rape more often.
But I have a theory for this also which brings us back to the old chestnut.
They have the luxury of feeling no shame when using a hooker, which of course is better than committing rape.
I think you referred to this as a more 'honest' option than having sex with a girlfriend didn’t you?

So the obvious solution in the US is to, instead of subsidising the bloody corn industry, they need to start subsidising the hookers (p<3n) industry.

I'm not Texan.

Just copy the Dutch model. Private sector and some government regulations.

When you have a hot pecker..., lower an Eastern European on your dagger! Lekker Lekker.

RobbyG wrote:Just copy the Dutch model. Private sector and some government regulations.

When you have a hot pecker..., lower an Eastern European on your dagger! Lekker Lekker.

Is the red light district in your hometown still operational? Thought they would close it done. Remember reading something like that a while ago.
I'll ask some Saudi's, it seems a very popular destination for them. They cant stop talking about the excellent price/services ratio over there.

I found out that the judges ruled against the local politics and Bibop police investigation that their substantiation of the evidence provided was insufficient. Bibop claimed that the criminal 'Cor van Hout' had invested in the real estate used for prostitution.

All is well. Just foul play from local PVDA politicians who probably never get laid with their own wifes.

benwj wrote:

shafique wrote:Which brings me to my well-worn argument that this case happened in the US and by Christians, DESPITE the laws saying this is illegal - and therefore begs the question, would there be more such crimes in the US if the law was more lenient? If not, then the legal system isn't effective - and if it does - then what is causing the US citizens to want to rape girls and then use the Bible to condone it (i.e. how many more would do it, but are stopped by the law?). (BTW Shariah also says rape is illegal, btw - and in this case there is no Shariah court who would make the victim apologise).

I think I see where you are going regarding the discipline of US citizens…

Phew, I thought I'd have to explain it again!

benwj wrote:Let’s safely assume that in a lawless US society rape would be more common.

Well, that's logical. So we can benchmark the societies by looking at the statistics of reported and estimates of unreported rapes and other violence against women.

benwj wrote:But given that arab men already get away with murder (not literally), they in effect are already living in a somewhat lawless society and deserve credit for their remarkable self-control by not committing rape more often.

Sure, that is indeed a valid hypothesis and one that we can check by looking at evidence. We won't easily be able to check self-restraint or morality, but we can look at which societies men are 'getting away with murder' (literally and figuratively) when it comes to violence against women. Then we can postulate how much higher the rate would be if the laws against these crimes were relaxed.

benwj wrote:But I have a theory for this also which brings us back to the old chestnut.
They have the luxury of feeling no shame when using a hooker, which of course is better than committing rape.

Again, a hypothesis which we can test. I presume you're arguing that men in the US have more shame (per capita) than men in the Saudi when it comes to paying for s.ex (outside marriage/girlfriend relationship). And presumably you're arguing that Saudis, because they have less shame and go with prostitutes, therefore rape less (which we can check with the statistics about rates of rape among US women vs Saudi women)

benwj wrote:I think you referred to this as a more 'honest' option than having love with a girlfriend didn’t you?

Not sure I did - but for the sake of argument, let's see where you take this train of logic.. (I do recall saying that Islam's solution is no s.ex outside of marriage - period)

benwj wrote:So the obvious solution in the US is to, instead of subsidising the bloody corn industry, they need to start subsidising the hookers (p<3n) industry.

I'm not Texan.

So, the problem in Texas and US is that there is NOT ENOUGH p<3n and if they increase it (and the hookers) then the eh's fellow countrymen will rape less.

....

ok, I've picked myself up off the floor - thanks for that comedy break. But perhaps I misunderstood - are you really saying that there's not enough p<3n and access to hookers in the States and that is why the violence against women is higher?

So you're not Texan - great. Did you go to PR school in Tel Aviv perchance (I'd ask for a refund )

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm glad you see the funny side.

No, more hookers would not work in the US. But it seems to work for Dubai in a weird kind of way.

No never been to Tel Aviv.
Unfortunately I have a Jewish name, but thats about the limit of my sympathy for them.

^Hey, benjw - perhaps you're right - the availability of prostitutes and the attitudes of Johns in Dubai may have something to do with the lower incidences of rapes and other violence against women when compared with the US and Europe. It's certainly a valid hypothesis to try and explain the different rates (which is measurable).

I would have gone out on a limb and would have suggested that having more people being faithful to their spouses because of moral values (generally and for religious reason), and the relative alcohol consumption for the same reasons, may have something to do with the differences in levels of violence against women - but I'll certainly concede that your hypothesis also should be considered.


Anyway, we've established you're not from the Lone Star state... but the question was, is eh from there or not? ...

shafique wrote:Hey eh - you're not from New Hampshire are you?

I would have guessed you came from the deep south or other parts of the Bible belt - but given there are crazees up north as well, I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I'd still do a friendly wager that you're Texan. (Where we know only s.....s and q.....s come from - which are you boy? )

Well he/she can cut and paste which is beyond most Texans.
So I'd say Vermont, the sob-story lobbyist capital.

shafique wrote:I would have gone out on a limb and would have suggested that having more people being faithful to their spouses because of moral values (generally and for religious reason), and the relative alcohol consumption for the same reasons, may have something to do with the differences in levels of violence against women - but I'll certainly concede that your hypothesis also should be considered.

Sure, but you can't force people to act or behave a certain way.

That's the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Islam creates change from the top of the pyramid to the bottom. Plus, all that talk about the tortures of hell and allah not loving those who do not love her probably doesn't do a lot of good either.

Singing in the rain kind of thing...

benwj wrote:Well he/she can cut and paste which is beyond most Texans.
So I'd say Vermont, the sob-story lobbyist capital.

You, have a point benwj - but I'm always the optimist, and think it possible to believe that some rednecks have worked out how to use the internet and cut and paste arguments from dodgy web sites.

So, eh which is it - where are you from - Vermont, New Hampshire or Texas (or how about, Bible Belt or not Bible Belt?)


As for what Islam teaches about morality and personal responsibility, I think God's words in the Quran are pretty clear (don't commit fornication, for example) and struggle to see how it differs from what Jesus or Moses taught.

I guess Islamophobes have to construct a strawman of Islamic morals to criticise, but look beyond the Bible camp homilies at what God actually teaches about s.exual morality and there you see that 'thou shall not covet thy neighbour's wife' is a pretty constant teaching of God. However, that's pretty obvious to most people - the question of the moment is...

Where is eh from ... Bible Belt/Non-Bible Belt, or specific guesses - Texas, Vermont (or even New Hampshire where these Baptists used the Bible to make a rape victim apologise for falling pregnant!)

Edit: South Carolina seems to be a candidate too..
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/06/south- ... s-raghead/

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you are right about alcohol and incidence of violence. Here one watchdog site that gives some stats. http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_p ... olence.htm

Here's the RAINN website - http://www.rainn.org/statistics

kanelli wrote:Shaf, you are right about alcohol and incidence of violence. Here one watchdog site that gives some stats. http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_p ... olence.htm

Here's the RAINN website - http://www.rainn.org/statistics

Hello little green one!!!!

I missed you in Bali and on here! Someone had to stay behind and keep the home AC cooling.

Next time maybe?



Knight

Hi DK, I miss you! Was sad you couldn't make it to Bali. Do let us know if you are coming out this way for work or holiday, because we'd love to see you.

kanelli wrote:Hi DK, I miss you! Was sad you couldn't make it to Bali. Do let us know if you are coming out this way for work or holiday, because we'd love to see you.

No plans at the moment but I have to go to Cambodia again in the near future as the student I sponsor has won a scholarship to the Canadian University in Pnomh Penh and I would like to go and see her settled into the campus. Was then planning on a nice vacation in Bora Bora!

Not the Bora Bora on here!

Hahahahaha!



Knight