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Once a baby is born it is definitely a person. I think that there should be a rule about the age of the fetus. For example, no abortions once hitting 3rd trimester. The baby must be born and given for adoption if the mother doesn't want it. During the first two trimesters every woman should have the right to abort. The fetus isn't viable if born during those first two trimesters anyway.

You're contradicting yourself.

I still am amazed at eh's blatant 'whataboutery' argument here.

Religiously based extremists are calling for women to be executed for abortions, and eh has expressed his sympathy for these views because they are 'cultural'.

Smoke and mirrors about what the UAE may condone or condemn, or whether girls should be whipped are beside the point. Valiant attempt though - but it is very difficult to hide the fact that these religious extremists being supported by eh are Christian.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:

Once a baby is born it is definitely a person. I think that there should be a rule about the age of the fetus. For example, no abortions once hitting 3rd trimester. The baby must be born and given for adoption if the mother doesn't want it. During the first two trimesters every woman should have the right to abort. The fetus isn't viable if born during those first two trimesters anyway.

You're contradicting yourself.

Listen, as I've posted before that the third trimester is a gray area for me. I think that if a pregnancy has gone on that long already and the fetus is highly developed and is viable outside of the womb in that trimester, there could be a line drawn that it is illegal to abort. If there was a line drawn about abortion I would support it being at the third trimester. I'm sure some women would disagree with me. Anyhow, the birth of a live baby automatically means that baby is a person, and anyone killing that baby should face murder charges.

EH, you have supported in this thread an in another that it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to die during a backstreet abortion or as punishment for an abortion because you think the rights of the fetus trump the rights of woman carrying the fetus. Essentially, if women kill their fetus, they deserve to die. And what about the men who helped create the fetus? They are not going to be the ones who die from illegal abortion or be sent to the electric chair for supporting their girlfriend/wife's choice to abort their fetus. The blame and responsibility lies squarely on the woman, right? Only a misogynistic religious extremist would seek to punish women over miscarriages and abortion, and doctors for providing safer abortion.

Listen, as I've posted before that the third trimester is a gray area for me. I think that if a pregnancy has gone on that long already and the fetus is highly developed and is viable outside of the womb in that trimester

So you're saying women have fewer rights in the third trimester than they have during any other.

A female's right to choose must not be as important to you if you can say she no longer has a right to choose because she's at a certain stage of pregnancy.

I can go ahead and ignore your posts where you defend abortion based on the rights of the female since that isn't a serious issue for you.

Anyhow, the birth of a live baby automatically means that baby is a person, and anyone killing that baby should face murder charges.

That's your opinion. The abortion industry and advocates totally support partial birth abortion as well. Sen. Obama even ruled against a bill banning it since that would curb women's rights. So not everyone agrees with you that killing a (partially) born baby is like committing murder - and PBA has been legal in various countries.

Then again, partial birth is usually done in the second trimester so maybe you would support the procedure.

EH, you have supported in this thread an in another that it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to die during a backstreet abortion or as punishment for an abortion because you think the rights of the fetus trump the rights of woman carrying the fetus.

That's a brilliant line of reasoning you have. Murder should be legal as well to make it less dangerous for would be murderers and, hey, murder is going to happen not matter what, so you might as well legalize it.

Essentially, if women kill their fetus, they deserve to die.

I somehow doubt people feel sympathy for would be rapists who die while attempting rape. Go lecture the majority of Westerners who feel no compassion for these rapists and that if rape were legal that rapist probably wouldn't have died.

They are not going to be the ones who die from illegal abortion or be sent to the electric chair for supporting their girlfriend/wife's choice to abort their fetus.

Wouldn't they be considered an accessory to murder or part of a conspiracy to commit first degree murder?

Only a misogynistic religious extremist would seek to punish women over miscarriages and abortion, and doctors for providing safer abortion.

Actually there are plenty of non-religious people who oppose abortion, so that blows your weak minded conclusions out of the water.

But let me ask just so we make sure, are people who support tough legislation for rapists misandrist religious extremists?

Extremists and their justifications for killing women, eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

What's your excuse that women are dirty?

^There you go again with a weak whataboutery argument. The flaw in the argument is that your Bible-camp version of Islam isn't reality.

You supporting the execution of women for abortion is a shocking example of religious extremism.

Cheers,
Shafique

I haven't met any pro-lifer who isn't devoutly religious, especially one that would call for women and doctors to be killed for having or providing abortions.

It is my compromise for also recognizing the rights of a fetus when it is viable outside of the womb. When it comes down it, if it was all or nothing I would definitely support women being able to abort during any of the three trimesters if it means that they can maintain the right to abortion. I think a compromise is more ethical though.

Unlike you EH, I don't always think of everything as black and white - there are lots of grey areas to be considered! I look at biology and sociology when forming my opinions on this, not religious idealism.

So menstruating women are viewed as ritualistically clean? Is that what you're trying to put through the spin cycle?

I'm all for changing Islam so it's more compatible with the 19th, 20th and eventually the 21st century but to gloss over facts that make Islam unfavorable to non-Muslims wins no points from me.

It is my compromise for also recognizing the rights of a fetus when it is viable outside of the womb. When it comes down it, if it was all or nothing I would definitely support women being able to abort during any of the three trimesters if it means that they can maintain the right to abortion. I think a compromise is more ethical though.

I take it you're fine in any hypothetical scenario where a pre-term baby's life is at the discretion of a hospital, no?

eh - deal with the topic at hand, the extremist religious view that it is ok to kill a woman for having an abortion.

Your bible-camp fantasies about Islam have nothing to with your extremist views. Even if it were true - it is nothing more than a weak what-about-ery argument ('I am extremist in supporting killing of women, but my Guru tells me Muslims consider mensturating women ritually unclean' - I'd be embarrassed to put forward this argument, even if it were based on fact rather than fiction)

Have the courage of your conviction and be proud of your religious extremist stance.

Cheers,
Shafique

I suppose name calling is all you have when I've never mentioned religion as a reason to oppose abortion in this thread (except in my first post).

My pointing out Islam's misogynistic view of women was only in response to you trying to make yourself out as being some sort of feminist. As FD said above, it's quite ironic that some backward minded person will try to score cheap points by putting up a false front that he supports women's rights when he doesn't even want women to worship in the same area as he does (or menstruating women to worship at all)!

Oh please EH, one doesn't have to be a feminist to agree that women should not be killed for having an abortion.

Sure, if you're against the death penalty then I agree with you.

But if you agree with the death penalty, then what could warrant it more than for those who would kill the most vulnerable of humans.

I don't believe in the death penalty. I also don't believe that a woman should be imprisoned for life if she has an abortion. We've already been through the discussion on when the baby has rights independent from the mother. None of this has anything to do with the fact that one does not have to be a feminist to agree that women should not be jailed or killed for miscarrying or having an abortion, and doctors should not be killed for providing safer abortion.

I don't think a valid reason has been given for why the lives of the unborn should not be treated equally with those of the born.

I...I'm speechless.


I don't even know where to start raging anymore...