Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Political ?

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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 27, 2010
You do like your strange fantasies. First it is Afghan boys and their lurve lives, then it is fantasies about foot wear! :)

Look, let me try and move things on a bit - can you at least give me a reference to the Pope's speech (which you say you read) so we can check whether your version actually does have the Pope not declaring a Holy War. You said you read a speech - so give us the reference for which historian's account of the speech you're referring to and show us why you say Urban isn't calling a Holy War in that speech (I will assume you can't find a historian to agree with you on this point).

(Perhaps you can show us why you think Urban only 'dropped references' of a Holy War in his speech and didn't call for a Holy War. Seems like you're splitting hairs here - if he called for a Holy War, he called for a Holy War. If the first victims slaughtered were slaughtered over religion and not politics, then your position is untenable.)

So, give us the quotes from the loon version of the Pope's speech and show us the bits where he 'drops references' to a Holy War but does not actually call for one.

That will be interesting.

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Shafique

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 28, 2010
You said you read a speech - so give us the reference for which historian's account of the speech you're referring to and show us why you say Urban isn't calling a Holy War in that speech (I will assume you can't find a historian to agree with you on this point).


Wow. Just utterly amazed at how dumb you are.

I mean, seriously. How do you manage to turn your computer on everyday ?

Why would it matter if the Pope called for a holy war when you've already 'explained' away Shahzad's call for holy war against the United States ?

This is the actual point I've made throughout this thread and elsewhere.

Man, numbers people are really dumb.

if he called for a Holy War, he called for a Holy War.


And the Times Square bomber and OBL have also called for a holy war.

What's your point when you've already dismissed these facts when it comes to Muslims ?

If the first victims slaughtered were slaughtered over religion and not politics, then your position is untenable.


Yeah, sure it would.

Accept there is no connection between the calling of the crusade and the actions of armed individuals.

The Pope didn't call for attacks against European Jews. The Pope didn't call for the attacks against Jews at all.

The Pope didn't even call for the attacks against the unbelievers as the Koran will often times do.

The Pope's call to arms was against a named enemy and the reasons for the call to arms are clear from the Pope's speech.

Your 'logic' is as dumb as claiming the Civil War was against the Irish because many were killed by Union troops in the Northern cities.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 28, 2010
shafique wrote:(Perhaps you can show us why you think Urban only 'dropped references' of a Holy War in his speech and didn't call for a Holy War. Seems like you're splitting hairs here - if he called for a Holy War, he called for a Holy War. If the first victims slaughtered were slaughtered over religion and not politics, then your position is untenable.)

So, give us the quotes from the loon version of the Pope's speech and show us the bits where he 'drops references' to a Holy War but does not actually call for one.

That will be interesting.



I ask for the references and quotes and you call me 'dumb' for asking.

Hmm. Smoke and mirrors - again?

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 28, 2010
Yes, I think you're dumb if you claim that one person calling for a holy war means nothing but another person calling for a holy war means that person's motives were religious.

I think that's quite obvious.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 28, 2010
You're the one claiming that the Crusades weren't Holy Wars but were rather political.

I'm just asking for the quotes from the speech you allegedly read (the one where you say Urban 'dropped in' references to a Holy War).

If you now agree with me that Urban did call for a Holy War and the Crusades were indeed Holy Wars - why did you deny this when I said it to Red Chief?

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 28, 2010
I thought I said that the crusade was political as opposed to being launched for religious reasons.

It's a bit interesting that you would argue that a 'Holy War' makes a conflict inherently religious.

Have you already forgotten that the Times Square bomber and OBL have both called for holy wars ?

Anyways, perhaps you can find where the Pope calls for a holy war in his speech at Clermont.

I'm just asking for the quotes from the speech you allegedly read (the one where you say Urban 'dropped in' references to a Holy War).


No problem. The underlying reason for the first crusade was 'political', not religious. The Pope's stated reason for the Crusade was to protect Christians in the East from Seljuk Turk attacks after an appeal from Alexios I.

And, unlike OBL, who quotes the violent passages of the Koran to justify terrorism, the Pope never quotes a single passage from the Bible as scriptural justification for violence. The Pope needed none - he was fighting a war of self defense.

It is no surprise then, that the reason for crusading was due to Turkish hostility as the Pope himself says:
. . . "We have beard, most beloved brethren, and you have heard what we cannot recount without deep sorrow how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusalem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East. Your own blood brothers, your companions, your associates (for you are sons of the same Christ and the same Church) are either subjected in their inherited homes to other masters, or are driven from them, or they come as beggars among us; or, which is far worse, they are flogged and exiled as slaves for sale in their own land.
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 28, 2010
event horizon wrote:It's a bit interesting that you would argue that a 'Holy War' makes a conflict inherently religious.


So do we agree that the Crusades were a Holy War, after all? :roll:

(You'll have to help me out with the loon logic though - how is a Holy War NOT 'inherently religious'?)

BTW - I notice that you still refuse to give the reference, but given the typo of 'beard' instead of 'heard' I tracked it down.

So, the loon selective quote is at play once again.

Recall that you started this thread with my quote:
RC - Pope Urban II call for the crusades was pretty explicit to me


Let's examine whether Urban was explicit about the crusades being a Holy War or not (we'll take a portion from the same version of the speech you quoted above):

Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more successfully than did the sons of Jacob of old - struggle, that you may assail and drive out the Turks, more execrable than the Jebusites, who are in this land, and may you deem it a beautiful thing to die for Christ in that city in which He died for us. But if it befall you to die this side of it, be sure that to have died on the way is of equal value, if Christ shall find you in His army.
...
Short is the way, little the labor, which, nevertheless, will repay you with the crown that fadeth not away. Accordingly, we speak with the authority of the prophet: 'Gird thy sword upon thy thigh O mighty one.' Gird yourselves, everyone of you, I say, and be valiant sons; for it is better for you to die in battle than to behold, the sorrows of your race and of your holy places. Let neither property nor the alluring charms of your wives entice you frol going; nor let the trials that are to be borne so deter you that you remain here."

And turning to the bishops, he said, "You, brothers and fellow bishops; you, fellow priests and sharers with us in Christ, make this same announcement through the churches committed to you, and with your whole soul vigorously preach the journey to Jerusalem. When they have confessed the disgrace of their sins, do you, secure in Christ, grant them speedy pardon. Moreover, you who are to go shall have us praying for you; we shall have you fighting for God's people. It is our duty to pray, yours to fight against the Amalekites. With Moses, we shall extend unwearied hands in prayer to Heaven, while you go forth and brandish the sword, like dauntless warriors, against Amalek."


Pretty explicit to me.

QED

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Shafique
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 28, 2010
But it is interesting that you chose the 3rd of 5 versions of the speech to extract your quote.

Had you chosen the first, you'd have had to justify how the following is not an explicit call to Holy War:

If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html


But that said, I'm still reeling by the logic that a Holy War isn't motivated by religion. That's a great one, young one. Nice. :lol:

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Shafique
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 29, 2010
Thanks for actually quoting the Pope's speech. Now that you've quote one version of the speech we can compare what the Pope says with OBL says in his fatwa.

It would only make sense, right ?

Pope wrote:carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our


Osama bin Laden wrote:On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it


Pope wrote:"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested


LoL.

Ok, so the Pope says that crusaders who die in battle against Muslims will have their sins forgiven.

Let's see what the Koran says about having one's sins forgiven if they kill non-believers:

Koran 9:111 wrote:God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed


Pope wrote:Moreover, Christ commands it.


Osama quoting a hadith wrote:Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders


Osama bin Laden wrote:On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:


Osama bin Laden wrote:We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.


Pope wrote: O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race


Koran 98:6 wrote:Verily, those who disbelieve amongst the people of the Book and the idolaters shall be in the fire of hell, to dwell therein for aye; they are wretched creatures!


Osama bin Laden quoting Koran 9:5 wrote:"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"




shafique wrote:But that said, I'm still reeling by the logic that a Holy War isn't motivated by religion. That's a great one, young one. Nice.


Well, actually I'm not the one who said that.

You did after it was pointed out the Times Square bomber and Osama bin Laden have called for Holy War.

So, are you now arguing that OBL and Faizal Shahzad are motivated by religion ?

That must be pretty embarrassing.

For every portion of the text you highlighted from the Pope's call to arms, I could easily find the same types of statements from Osama bin Laden's fatwa against the West and world Jewry.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 29, 2010
So, do we agree now that the Crusades were a Holy War?

Cool. (See, as I suspected you were indeed a rogue loon and couldn't back up your bizare claim that the Crusades weren't Holy Wars!)

As for whether Bin Laden is the equivalent of the Pope, we can compare your theory with the actual reasons Bin Laden gives (and I quote from his words on the subject).

shafique wrote:In fact, the Sweden reference comes from a 2004 tape Bin Laden made.

This weekend Osama bin Laden released a videotaped speech directed at the American people. He once again took credit for the attacks on September 11, 2001, but for the first time he explained his reasons for planning the attack. He blamed American interference in Middle Eastern countries, beginning with American support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, for his decision. He mocked President Bush's supposition about the reason behind the attacks, that the terrorists hated our freedoms. If it's freedom we hate, bin Laden asks, why didn't we attack Sweden? "We fought you because we are free . . . and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

http://www.progressivetheology.org/essa ... peaks.html

And here for full transcript:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm


So, please show in the reasons given for the attack on 9/11 where Bin Laden says the attacks were like the Crusades - motivated by religion and not retaliatory attacks on the US?



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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 29, 2010
Given that we now have the references to the speeches of Urban, perhaps young eh can try and justify his statement:

event horizon wrote:Hopefully we can see which declaration is more uniquely religious - after all, the Pope's call for war is pretty generic, any religious group that believes in one God could have written it.

dubai-politics-talk/religious-basis-for-muslim-view-t42622-15.html#p342711

What is Generic about 'Christ Commands It' etc - seems pretty specific that the Pope is calling for a Holy War by Christians against the 'vile race' of 'infidels'.

You see, young one, when you make claims based on 'beliefs' and not actual references, you eventually get found out.

So - can you explain, or do you admit you are wrong on this point too?

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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 29, 2010
Saying that the crusades were not religiously motivated is about as loony as saying that the 9/11 attacks weren't religiously motivated either.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 29, 2010
^I half agree with you. ;)

But then again, perhaps Bin Laden is loony for saying what he said the reasons for 9/11 were. But on the first part of your statement - no arguments there!

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 29, 2010
We all know that Bin Laden is loony, but that only adds to the argument that he is religious :lol:
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 29, 2010
What is Generic about 'Christ Commands It' etc - seems pretty specific that the Pope is calling for a Holy War by Christians against the 'vile race' of 'infidels'.


Wow - have you already forgotten that I matched every one of your quotes with quotes from OBL's fatwa ?

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:


We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.


Bin Laden says that killing Westerners and Jews is an order from Allah. Couldn't get any clearer than that.

Bin Laden also calls for a Holy War - do you deny that the 9/11 attacks were seen as part of a holy war against the West and world Jewry in the eyes of al-Qaeda ?

-- Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:56 pm --

shafique wrote:^I half agree with you. ;)

But then again, perhaps Bin Laden is loony for saying what he said the reasons for 9/11 were. But on the first part of your statement - no arguments there!

Cheers,
Shafique


Seems like OBL finds justification/reason to attack the West from the Koran:

Now, then, how can you speak about Allah without knowledge? Who told you that transgression against man is impermissible--if he is an infidel? What about Offensive Jihad? Allah Exalted, the Most High, said: "Fight them! Allah will torment them with your hands".... [Koran 9:14] Indeed, these expressions of yours are built upon the principle of equality, as found in the charters of the United Nations, which do not distinguish [among] people, neither by way of religion nor race nor love. Islam improves; it is not improved.... [p. 38] Furthermore, how can they [intellectuals] claim that we have no right to force a people to change its particular values, when they transgress the bounds of nature? Such are lies. In fact, Muslims are obligated to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system, barring any practice that contradicts the sharia from being publicly voiced among the people, as was the case at the dawn of Islam....[p. 50] Thus they make claims and speak about Allah without understanding. They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to impose our particular beliefs upon others. Whoever doubts this, let him turn to the deeds of the Companions when they raided the lands of the Christians and Omar imposed upon them the conditions of dhimmi[tude]. These conditions involve clothing attire, specific situations, and class distinctions known to ulamaas the pact of Omar,[13] and they are notoriously famous. Let the signatories review them so they know that we are to force people by the power of the sword to [our] particular understandings, customs, and conditions, all in order to induce debasement and humility, just like Allah commanded when he said: "[...]until they pay the jizya by hand, in complete submission and humility." [Koran 9:29] Now, if you are incapable of jihad and placing people into the religion, like the Companions did, your impotence does not mean that it is not a legitimate aspect of the religion. [p. 51]


But I guess one would be pretty loony for ignoring the reasons for going to war the Pope outlined in every version of his speech.

Shafique has simply quoted some religious rhetoric from the Pope. A bit odd when he and his author are so quick to dismiss calls for Holy War, quotations of the violent verses of the Koran, statements that allah commands the killing of Westerners, belief in martyrdom, etc from bin Laden as simple 'rhetoric'.
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 29, 2010
So, you now agree that the Crusades were indeed Holy Wars - excellent. You were indeed on a rogue loon trip then.

However, you're not going to be able to wriggle out of not answering a related quote:
shafique wrote:Given that we now have the references to the speeches of Urban, perhaps young eh can try and justify his statement:

event horizon wrote:Hopefully we can see which declaration is more uniquely religious - after all, the Pope's call for war is pretty generic, any religious group that believes in one God could have written it.

dubai-politics-talk/religious-basis-for-muslim-view-t42622-15.html#p342711

What is Generic about 'Christ Commands It' etc - seems pretty specific that the Pope is calling for a Holy War by Christians against the 'vile race' of 'infidels'.

You see, young one, when you make claims based on 'beliefs' and not actual references, you eventually get found out.

So - can you explain, or do you admit you are wrong on this point too?


Can you justify your claim that the Pope's call for Holy War was 'generic'??

As for your quotes from Raymond Ibrahim's book - may I refer you once more to what I wrote when you last quoted these passages:
dubai-politics-talk/qaeda-terrorism-political-religious-t42665.html#p343108

shafique wrote:
As for whether Bin Laden is the equivalent of the Pope, we can compare your theory with the actual reasons Bin Laden gives (and I quote from his words on the subject).

shafique wrote:In fact, the Sweden reference comes from a 2004 tape Bin Laden made.

This weekend Osama bin Laden released a videotaped speech directed at the American people. He once again took credit for the attacks on September 11, 2001, but for the first time he explained his reasons for planning the attack. He blamed American interference in Middle Eastern countries, beginning with American support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, for his decision. He mocked President Bush's supposition about the reason behind the attacks, that the terrorists hated our freedoms. If it's freedom we hate, bin Laden asks, why didn't we attack Sweden? "We fought you because we are free . . . and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

http://www.progressivetheology.org/essa ... peaks.html

And here for full transcript:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm


So, please show in the reasons given for the attack on 9/11 where Bin Laden says the attacks were like the Crusades - motivated by religion and not retaliatory attacks on the US?



So:

1. Justify your statement that the Pope's call for Holy War was 'generic' - when the words are clearly calling for a Christian Holy War (in the name of Christ etc).

2. Show in Bin Laden's explanation of why 9/11 took place where he is like the Pope. I mean Bin Laden says he isn't attacking Sweden - how does that link in with Ibrahim arguing that Bin Laden calls for all Westerners (and Jews) to be killed?

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 30, 2010
Can you justify your claim that the Pope's call for Holy War was 'generic'??


Where did the Pope call for a Holy War ?

If Holy War is a Christian concept (and the Pope actually called for one) as in, it was found in the New Testament, then it would be difficult to argue that the Pope's statement was generic.

That said, the majority of the religious rhetoric made by the Pope was rather generic. A few passages of God/Christ commands it, sure.

But that certainly isn't anything worse than the statements of 'obeying Allah's orders' to kill Westerners and Jews from OBL. In other words, you're sawing the branch you're standing on.

And it's hard to argue that OBL didn't call for a holy war (Jihad), didn't cite the Koran, Hadith and Islamic teachings.

So, how is one to believe, given that the Pope cites earthly grievances as justification of his call to arms, that the Pope's speech was more inherently religious than OBL's ?

So, please show in the reasons given for the attack on 9/11 where Bin Laden says the attacks were like the Crusades - motivated by religion and not retaliatory attacks on the US?


I already have quoted OBL where he cites the texts and teachings of Islam as his motivation and justification for 9/11.

Now, for every political justification for 9/11 from OBL that you can find, I can match one from the Pope and for every religious statement from the Pope that you quote, I can easily find an analogous statement from OBL.

2. Show in Bin Laden's explanation of why 9/11 took place where he is like the Pope. I mean Bin Laden says he isn't attacking Sweden - how does that link in with Ibrahim arguing that Bin Laden calls for all Westerners (and Jews) to be killed?


1) The Pope cites earthly grievances as justification for the crusade

2) The Pope never cites Christian scripture as justification for the crusade

3) OBL has made contradictory statements with regards to his war against non-Muslims

Just read the quotes of OBL from Raymond Ibrahim making clear OBL's Islamist worldview (as if that wasn't obvious).

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7344/an-a ... -worldview

Unlike OBL and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslims before him, Pope Urban never sought to conquer the world for Christianity. More, the Pope never justified the crusade based on scripture.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 30, 2010
You seem to be arguing that 'apart from the bits of the speech where Urban is telling people it is a Christian Holy War, the other parts were generic calls for a Holy War' :shock:


I presume the part where the Crusaders 'take the Cross' will be the part where it is a Christian Holy War, but I'm struggling with the logic that you're arguing that it was a generic call to Holy War because he didn't mention Christ in every line - but just dropped it in, for example by saying 'Moreover, Christ Commands It'??

That logic deserves a wave: :blob: :blob2: :blob3: :blob4:

How do you remove the Christian elements from this part of Urban's call for a Holy War to Jerusalem (which had been under Muslim rule - peaceful rule - for over 400 years):
Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more successfully than did the sons of Jacob of old - struggle, that you may assail and drive out the Turks, more execrable than the Jebusites, who are in this land, and may you deem it a beautiful thing to die for Christ in that city in which He died for us. But if it befall you to die this side of it, be sure that to have died on the way is of equal value, if Christ shall find you in His army.


You quoted from this speech - so explain yourself.

I merely said that the Pope's call was pretty explicit. The evidence is clearly on my side - even in Loonville.


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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 30, 2010
That logic deserves a wave:


Let me see if I get this right.

OBL calls for a holy war against the US.

Says that Muslims must follow Allah's order to kill Americans and Jews.

Seeks the establishment of a Caliphate.

Copiously cites the texts and teachings of Islam.

Uses the Koran as justification/motivation for terrorism.

The Pope calls for a war against the Turks.

The Pope doesn't cite the texts and teachings of Christianity to wage war (unlike bin Laden).

The Pope states his grievances against the Turks and Arabs - they occupy Christian land, attack/raid Christian territory.

The Pope makes a few references to Christianity in his speech but it pales in comparison to OBL.

You conclude that the Pope's declaration of war was religious but OBL's fatwa against the US and world Jewry is political.

Have I correctly summed up your argument ?

I merely said that the Pope's call was pretty explicit. The evidence is clearly on my side - even in Loonville.


Hold on.

You haven't refuted any of my quotes from OBL's fatwa.

For every quote from the Pope you highlighted, I was easily able to find an analogous quote from OBL.

In fact, OBL's fatwa was much more explicitly religious than the Pope's could be construed as being.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

If you can't refute my quotes from OBL and you claim that the Pope's call to arms was religious - even though you haven't addressed the actual reasons for going to war that the Pope gives - then OBL's fatwa against the US, her allies and world Jewry is also religious.

I mean, how could a call to war that has a title of 'Jihad' (holy war) not be termed religious ?
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 30, 2010
So, you're defending your logic that 'apart from the bits of Urban's speech where he says it is a Christian Holy War, it is a generic call for Holy War'?

10/10 for Chutzpah.

0/10 for logic.

:)

As for your blind belief that Ibrahim's book is the gospel truth, I have indeed already addressed this and challenged you to show from Bin Laden's quotes for his reasons for 9/11 where he is behaving like the Pope. I've actually quoted Bin Laden explaining the reasons for 9/11, you've quoted a book by Ibrahim which gives his interpretations. (That's not even a subtle difference - so even residents of loonville should be able to see the difference)

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 31, 2010
I've also asked you from the Pope's speech to show the reasons for the crusades.

And I've also quoted the Pope explaining the reasons for the crusades.

Perhaps if you read the link I provided you would have realized that Ibrahim tackles the points you made in this thread and elsewhere.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Jul 31, 2010
I know you want to divert attention from one of the mother's of U-turns - but it isn't going to work.

Confirm that you now agree (after all) that the Crusades were a Holy War called by Urban and explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).

Your credibility has passed zero now (and going lower). Soon we'll just be laughing and dismissing all your other fantasies.

As for me believing what Ibrahim has written in his book - I'm sorry, you're the one that believes this huckster's interpretations are Gospel, I have actually quoted Bin Laden explaining his reasons for 9/11. The fact you can't address this point speaks volumes.

You have to rely on Ibrahim's spin, rather than address Bin Laden's direct explanation of why 9/11 took place.

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 31, 2010
explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).


Yes, I still maintain that most of the Pope's speech was generic.

Replace Jesus with allah, Yahweh, Elohim, Lord Buddha, etc and you could have any theist calling for a war.

Bin Laden's fatwa was specific to Islam. Jihad, Mujaheddin, the texts and teachings of Islam that OBL cited - that is all specific to Islam.

So the Pope said 'Christ commands it'.

So what ?

You've already argued that OBL's fatwa was political even though OBL said that Muslims are to follow 'Allah's orders' to kill Westerners and Jews.

For every passage from the versions of the Pope's speech that you could cite as being 'religious' I was able to counter your quotes with statements from OBL's fatwa or, if I tried, from statements al-Qaeda leaders made on other occasions.

In other words, you can't have it both ways. If the Pope's call to arms is religious, then so is OBL's.

And if OBL's fatwa against the West and world Jewry is political, then so is the Pope's.

I thought I've made my point numerous times.

I have actually quoted Bin Laden explaining his reasons for 9/11. The fact you can't address this point speaks volumes.


You haven't addressed the reasons the Pope gives for going to war against the Turks.

So I guess that speaks volumes.

As for me believing what Ibrahim has written in his book - I'm sorry, you're the one that believes this huckster's interpretations are Gospel


In other words, you can't refute the quotes from OBL (when he communicates to the Muslim world) proving that his Jihad against the West/Jews is religious.
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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 31, 2010
event horizon wrote:
explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).


Yes, I still maintain that most of the Pope's speech was generic.

Replace Jesus with allah, Yahweh, Elohim, Lord Buddha, etc and you could have any theist calling for a war.


:sign5: :laughing3:


When in a hole, it is usually a good idea to stop digging.


shafique wrote:I know you want to divert attention from one of the mother's of U-turns - but it isn't going to work.

Confirm that you now agree (after all) that the Crusades were a Holy War called by Urban and explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).

Your credibility has passed zero now (and going lower). Soon we'll just be laughing and dismissing all your other fantasies.


As predicted, I'm laughing!! ;)

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Jul 31, 2010
When in a hole, it is usually a good idea to stop digging.


Yes, that's what a generic statement means.

Just let me know when you're ready to address the reasons the Pope gave for going to war against the Turks.

Your hitherto silence has been noted.....and it speaks volumes.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Aug 01, 2010
And the mother of all U-turns continues. ;)

So, we now agree that the Pope called for a Holy War (so what was all the fuss about?) - but in your weird world it was a 'generic call' for a Holy War and IF the Pope hadn't been the head of the Church, and IF he hadn't called for fighting in the name of Christ, against a 'vile race' of 'infidels' - IF he had said 'Allah' instead of 'Christ' - then it would have been a 'generic call for Holy War by a theist'!!

Stop digging young loon - you're killing me with your humour!

Just because you have been exposed as a rogue loon for suggesting the Crusades weren't a Holy War (and now have to accept that it was, after all), your continuing protestations just make you look even more silly.


And, for all you guys with little faith, all it took for the young loon to be exposed was his eventual quoting of evidence (but note that even then he didn't actually give a reference - but fortunately quoted something that i I could track down and then quote other extracts from the same speech). Such is the way of the loon - unattributed quotes and fanciful interpretations, which when looked at in more detail and in context crumble away into nothingness ;) .

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Aug 01, 2010
As I said, the pope's call to war was generic.

Your response mentioning the Pope's reference to Jesus doesn't change that. If you can repackage the Pope's call to war by only changing the name of a deity, then that would be considered generic.

I didn't think that much ink needed to be spilled just pointing this out.

Next you'll be arguing that the Pope didn't quote the Bible as justification for his crusade.

down and then quote other extracts from the same speech


Actually, you didn't. You quoted from one version of his speech, I quoted from another.

The later ones focused more on Jerusalem whereas the earliest one (and the Pope's letter from that time) focused on Byzantium - the Pope's letter never bothers to even mention Jerusalem.

But besides some religious rhetoric - a bit ironic considering that OBL's rather explicit religious 'rhetoric' doesn't so much as act as a speed bump to slow you down from concluding that religion had nothing to do with 9/11 - you haven't addressed the reasons the Pope gave for going to war.

The Pope sought to reestablish lands to the Byzantine empire which were lost to her by imperial conquest. The crusades were no more offensive than the invasion of Normandy and no more religious than Islamic terrorism today - with Muslims naming their terror groups after Islamic terminology and citing the texts and teachings of Islam as motivation/justification to spill blood.
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Aug 01, 2010
So, the Pope called for a Holy War and cites Christ's authority and says 'Christ commands it'. The Crusaders literally 'took the cross' after the call for Holy War. Yet you call it a 'generic' call??

You must have a strange definition of 'generic'??

(Also, you're losing it - look back and you will see that I quoted from the SAME speech you quoted from first, then also quoted from the first one listed on the website you used - tut tut, must pay attention eh
dubai-politics-talk/pope-urban-and-obl-one-religious-the-other-political-t42648-30.html#p343316
shafique wrote:Let's examine whether Urban was explicit about the crusades being a Holy War or not (we'll take a portion from the same version of the speech you quoted above):...


AND the speech you quoted from mentions JERUSALEM as a target. So you've been busted - as Jerusalem was under peaceful Muslim rule at the time (and had been under Muslim rule for over 400 years).
Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more


I also quoted from another version of the same speech - there are 5 versions of the speech calling for the first crusade - delivered at Clermont. So much for reading the page before you cut and pasted a selected portion from it!! ;)

)


Now that you've had to admit the Pope did call for a Holy War.. are you just saying it wasn't a Christian Holy War that the head of the Christian Church called?

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Re: Pope Urban II and OBL - one religious, the other politic Aug 01, 2010
AND the speech you quoted from mentions JERUSALEM as a target. So you've been busted - as Jerusalem was under peaceful Muslim rule at the time (and had been under Muslim rule for over 400 years).


Who said otherwise ?

Jerusalem was part of the Byzantine empire and the expedition was to restore former lands to the Romans, including Antioch and Jerusalem.

Sigh, you really should try and keep up.

BTW, care to tell me if the Western troops that were garrisoned in Saudi Arabia for twelve years were there peacefully ?

I also quoted from another version of the same speech - there are 5 versions of the speech calling for the first crusade - delivered at Clermont. So much for reading the page before you cut and pasted a selected portion from it!!


And yet you were the one who claimed the Pope called for a holy war. I'm still waiting for these quotes:

especially the main one that Pope Urban explicitly called for a Holy War

Now that you've had to admit the Pope did call for a Holy War.. are you just saying it wasn't a Christian Holy War that the head of the Christian Church called?


Did the Times Square bomber and OBL call for Muslim holy wars against the United States ?

The Crusaders literally 'took the cross' after the call for Holy War. Yet you call it a 'generic' call??


There's nothing violent or militant to say that someone 'took the cross'. Sure, I agree that would be specific to Christianity but the passages declaring 'Christ commands it' are generic.

See my earlier explanation of what generic statements are.

Anyways, I'll patiently wait for you to address the reasons the Pope gives for going to war against the Turks.

I'll give you a hint, the Pope doesn't call for war against the Turks because the Pope believes Christianity is to conquer the world (unlike the Times Square bomber and OBL).

-- Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:32 pm --

Edit: Interesting comment I found from a 'Crusader' historian:

"The Crusades," says Cardini, "were never 'religious wars,' their purpose was not to force conversions or suppress the infidel. The excesses and violence committed in the course of the expeditions (which did occur and must not be forgotten) must be evaluated in the painful but usual context of ... military events, keeping in mind that, undoubtedly, some theological reason always justified them.

"The Crusade was an armed pilgrimage that developed slowly over time, between the 11th and 13th centuries, which must be understood by being inserted in the context of the extended relations between Christianity and Islam, which have produced positive cultural and economic results ... If this was not the case, how could one explain the frequent friendships, including military alliances, between Christians and Moslems, in the history of the Crusades?"

To describe the Crusade as a "Holy War" against the Moslems is misleading, says Cardini: "The real interest in these expeditions, in service of Christian brethren threatened by Moslems, was the restoration of peace in the East, and the early stirring of the idea of rescue for distant fellow-Christians. The Crusade posited reconciliation with the adversary before departure, renouncement of disputes and vengeance, acceptance of possible martyrdom ...".


Not religious wars

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1999/ ... 2_275.html
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Re: Pope Urban II And OBL - One Religious, The Other Politic Aug 01, 2010
So, we're now back to where we started - you claiming that the Crusades weren't Holy Wars after all.

Hmm.

But, I'm still trying to get my head round by the latest twist in your logic -
event horizon wrote:If you can repackage the Pope's call to war by only changing the name of a deity, then that would be considered generic.


So - the leader of the Christian Church called a Holy War, called it in the name of Christ. BUT if he had used a different name, then it would be a generic Holy War??

What weirdness young loon is spewing?!

You also seem to be a bit confused over what 'taking the cross' meant in terms of the Crusade. You need to do a bit more homework! Had you read the speeches more carefully you would have read:
The most excellent man concluded his oration and by the power of the blessed Peter. absolved all who vowed to go and confirmed those acts with apostolic blessing. He instituted a sign well suited t so honorable a profession by making the figure of the Cross, the stigma of the Lord's Passion, the emblem of the soldiery, or rather, of what was to be the soldiery of God. This, made of any kind of cloth, he ordered to be sewed upon the shirts, cloaks, and byrra of those who were about to go. He commanded that if anyone, after receiving this emblem, or after taking openly this vow, should shrink from his good intent through base change of heart, or any affection for his parents, he should be regarded an outlaw forever, unless he repented and again undertook whatever of his pledge he had omitted.


As for Cardini - he admits there were theological reasons for the Holy Wars, but that they shouldn't be called Holy Wars? (He should have stuck to card tricks! ;) )

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