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You said you read a speech - so give us the reference for which historian's account of the speech you're referring to and show us why you say Urban isn't calling a Holy War in that speech (I will assume you can't find a historian to agree with you on this point).

if he called for a Holy War, he called for a Holy War.

If the first victims slaughtered were slaughtered over religion and not politics, then your position is untenable.

shafique wrote:(Perhaps you can show us why you think Urban only 'dropped references' of a Holy War in his speech and didn't call for a Holy War. Seems like you're splitting hairs here - if he called for a Holy War, he called for a Holy War. If the first victims slaughtered were slaughtered over religion and not politics, then your position is untenable.)

So, give us the quotes from the loon version of the Pope's speech and show us the bits where he 'drops references' to a Holy War but does not actually call for one.

That will be interesting.

I'm just asking for the quotes from the speech you allegedly read (the one where you say Urban 'dropped in' references to a Holy War).

. . . "We have beard, most beloved brethren, and you have heard what we cannot recount without deep sorrow how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusalem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East. Your own blood brothers, your companions, your associates (for you are sons of the same Christ and the same Church) are either subjected in their inherited homes to other masters, or are driven from them, or they come as beggars among us; or, which is far worse, they are flogged and exiled as slaves for sale in their own land.

event horizon wrote:It's a bit interesting that you would argue that a 'Holy War' makes a conflict inherently religious.

RC - Pope Urban II call for the crusades was pretty explicit to me

Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more successfully than did the sons of Jacob of old - struggle, that you may assail and drive out the Turks, more execrable than the Jebusites, who are in this land, and may you deem it a beautiful thing to die for Christ in that city in which He died for us. But if it befall you to die this side of it, be sure that to have died on the way is of equal value, if Christ shall find you in His army.
...
Short is the way, little the labor, which, nevertheless, will repay you with the crown that fadeth not away. Accordingly, we speak with the authority of the prophet: 'Gird thy sword upon thy thigh O mighty one.' Gird yourselves, everyone of you, I say, and be valiant sons; for it is better for you to die in battle than to behold, the sorrows of your race and of your holy places. Let neither property nor the alluring charms of your wives entice you frol going; nor let the trials that are to be borne so deter you that you remain here."

And turning to the bishops, he said, "You, brothers and fellow bishops; you, fellow priests and sharers with us in Christ, make this same announcement through the churches committed to you, and with your whole soul vigorously preach the journey to Jerusalem. When they have confessed the disgrace of their sins, do you, secure in Christ, grant them speedy pardon. Moreover, you who are to go shall have us praying for you; we shall have you fighting for God's people. It is our duty to pray, yours to fight against the Amalekites. With Moses, we shall extend unwearied hands in prayer to Heaven, while you go forth and brandish the sword, like dauntless warriors, against Amalek."

If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor.

Pope wrote:carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our

Osama bin Laden wrote:On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it

Pope wrote:"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested

Koran 9:111 wrote:God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed

Pope wrote:Moreover, Christ commands it.

Osama quoting a hadith wrote:Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders

Osama bin Laden wrote:On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

Osama bin Laden wrote:We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.

Pope wrote: O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race

Koran 98:6 wrote:Verily, those who disbelieve amongst the people of the Book and the idolaters shall be in the fire of hell, to dwell therein for aye; they are wretched creatures!

Osama bin Laden quoting Koran 9:5 wrote:"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"

shafique wrote:But that said, I'm still reeling by the logic that a Holy War isn't motivated by religion. That's a great one, young one. Nice.

shafique wrote:In fact, the Sweden reference comes from a 2004 tape Bin Laden made.

This weekend Osama bin Laden released a videotaped speech directed at the American people. He once again took credit for the attacks on September 11, 2001, but for the first time he explained his reasons for planning the attack. He blamed American interference in Middle Eastern countries, beginning with American support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, for his decision. He mocked President Bush's supposition about the reason behind the attacks, that the terrorists hated our freedoms. If it's freedom we hate, bin Laden asks, why didn't we attack Sweden? "We fought you because we are free . . . and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

http://www.progressivetheology.org/essa ... peaks.html

And here for full transcript:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm

event horizon wrote:Hopefully we can see which declaration is more uniquely religious - after all, the Pope's call for war is pretty generic, any religious group that believes in one God could have written it.

What is Generic about 'Christ Commands It' etc - seems pretty specific that the Pope is calling for a Holy War by Christians against the 'vile race' of 'infidels'.

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.

shafique wrote:^I half agree with you.

But then again, perhaps Bin Laden is loony for saying what he said the reasons for 9/11 were. But on the first part of your statement - no arguments there!

Cheers,
Shafique

Now, then, how can you speak about Allah without knowledge? Who told you that transgression against man is impermissible--if he is an infidel? What about Offensive Jihad? Allah Exalted, the Most High, said: "Fight them! Allah will torment them with your hands".... [Koran 9:14] Indeed, these expressions of yours are built upon the principle of equality, as found in the charters of the United Nations, which do not distinguish [among] people, neither by way of religion nor race nor love. Islam improves; it is not improved.... [p. 38] Furthermore, how can they [intellectuals] claim that we have no right to force a people to change its particular values, when they transgress the bounds of nature? Such are lies. In fact, Muslims are obligated to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system, barring any practice that contradicts the sharia from being publicly voiced among the people, as was the case at the dawn of Islam....[p. 50] Thus they make claims and speak about Allah without understanding. They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to impose our particular beliefs upon others. Whoever doubts this, let him turn to the deeds of the Companions when they raided the lands of the Christians and Omar imposed upon them the conditions of dhimmi[tude]. These conditions involve clothing attire, specific situations, and class distinctions known to ulamaas the pact of Omar,[13] and they are notoriously famous. Let the signatories review them so they know that we are to force people by the power of the sword to [our] particular understandings, customs, and conditions, all in order to induce debasement and humility, just like Allah commanded when he said: "[...]until they pay the jizya by hand, in complete submission and humility." [Koran 9:29] Now, if you are incapable of jihad and placing people into the religion, like the Companions did, your impotence does not mean that it is not a legitimate aspect of the religion. [p. 51]

shafique wrote:Given that we now have the references to the speeches of Urban, perhaps young eh can try and justify his statement:

event horizon wrote:Hopefully we can see which declaration is more uniquely religious - after all, the Pope's call for war is pretty generic, any religious group that believes in one God could have written it.

dubai-politics-talk/religious-basis-for-muslim-view-t42622-15.html#p342711

What is Generic about 'Christ Commands It' etc - seems pretty specific that the Pope is calling for a Holy War by Christians against the 'vile race' of 'infidels'.

You see, young one, when you make claims based on 'beliefs' and not actual references, you eventually get found out.

So - can you explain, or do you admit you are wrong on this point too?

shafique wrote:
As for whether Bin Laden is the equivalent of the Pope, we can compare your theory with the actual reasons Bin Laden gives (and I quote from his words on the subject).

shafique wrote:In fact, the Sweden reference comes from a 2004 tape Bin Laden made.

This weekend Osama bin Laden released a videotaped speech directed at the American people. He once again took credit for the attacks on September 11, 2001, but for the first time he explained his reasons for planning the attack. He blamed American interference in Middle Eastern countries, beginning with American support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, for his decision. He mocked President Bush's supposition about the reason behind the attacks, that the terrorists hated our freedoms. If it's freedom we hate, bin Laden asks, why didn't we attack Sweden? "We fought you because we are free . . . and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

http://www.progressivetheology.org/essa ... peaks.html

And here for full transcript:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm

So, please show in the reasons given for the attack on 9/11 where Bin Laden says the attacks were like the Crusades - motivated by religion and not retaliatory attacks on the US?

Can you justify your claim that the Pope's call for Holy War was 'generic'??

So, please show in the reasons given for the attack on 9/11 where Bin Laden says the attacks were like the Crusades - motivated by religion and not retaliatory attacks on the US?

2. Show in Bin Laden's explanation of why 9/11 took place where he is like the Pope. I mean Bin Laden says he isn't attacking Sweden - how does that link in with Ibrahim arguing that Bin Laden calls for all Westerners (and Jews) to be killed?

Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more successfully than did the sons of Jacob of old - struggle, that you may assail and drive out the Turks, more execrable than the Jebusites, who are in this land, and may you deem it a beautiful thing to die for Christ in that city in which He died for us. But if it befall you to die this side of it, be sure that to have died on the way is of equal value, if Christ shall find you in His army.

That logic deserves a wave:

I merely said that the Pope's call was pretty explicit. The evidence is clearly on my side - even in Loonville.

explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).

I have actually quoted Bin Laden explaining his reasons for 9/11. The fact you can't address this point speaks volumes.

As for me believing what Ibrahim has written in his book - I'm sorry, you're the one that believes this huckster's interpretations are Gospel

event horizon wrote:

explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).

Yes, I still maintain that most of the Pope's speech was generic.

Replace Jesus with allah, Yahweh, Elohim, Lord Buddha, etc and you could have any theist calling for a war.

shafique wrote:I know you want to divert attention from one of the mother's of U-turns - but it isn't going to work.

Confirm that you now agree (after all) that the Crusades were a Holy War called by Urban and explain how you can justify your statement that Urban's call for Holy War was 'generic' when the quotes show he was calling people to fight for Christ (i.e. join a CHRISTIAN Holy War).

Your credibility has passed zero now (and going lower). Soon we'll just be laughing and dismissing all your other fantasies.

When in a hole, it is usually a good idea to stop digging.

down and then quote other extracts from the same speech

shafique wrote:Let's examine whether Urban was explicit about the crusades being a Holy War or not (we'll take a portion from the same version of the speech you quoted above):...

Under Jesus Christ, our Leader, may you struggle for your Jerusalem, in Christian battleline, most invincible line, even more

AND the speech you quoted from mentions JERUSALEM as a target. So you've been busted - as Jerusalem was under peaceful Muslim rule at the time (and had been under Muslim rule for over 400 years).

I also quoted from another version of the same speech - there are 5 versions of the speech calling for the first crusade - delivered at Clermont. So much for reading the page before you cut and pasted a selected portion from it!!

Now that you've had to admit the Pope did call for a Holy War.. are you just saying it wasn't a Christian Holy War that the head of the Christian Church called?

The Crusaders literally 'took the cross' after the call for Holy War. Yet you call it a 'generic' call??

"The Crusades," says Cardini, "were never 'religious wars,' their purpose was not to force conversions or suppress the infidel. The excesses and violence committed in the course of the expeditions (which did occur and must not be forgotten) must be evaluated in the painful but usual context of ... military events, keeping in mind that, undoubtedly, some theological reason always justified them.

"The Crusade was an armed pilgrimage that developed slowly over time, between the 11th and 13th centuries, which must be understood by being inserted in the context of the extended relations between Christianity and Islam, which have produced positive cultural and economic results ... If this was not the case, how could one explain the frequent friendships, including military alliances, between Christians and Moslems, in the history of the Crusades?"

To describe the Crusade as a "Holy War" against the Moslems is misleading, says Cardini: "The real interest in these expeditions, in service of Christian brethren threatened by Moslems, was the restoration of peace in the East, and the early stirring of the idea of rescue for distant fellow-Christians. The Crusade posited reconciliation with the adversary before departure, renouncement of disputes and vengeance, acceptance of possible martyrdom ...".

event horizon wrote:If you can repackage the Pope's call to war by only changing the name of a deity, then that would be considered generic.

The most excellent man concluded his oration and by the power of the blessed Peter. absolved all who vowed to go and confirmed those acts with apostolic blessing. He instituted a sign well suited t so honorable a profession by making the figure of the Cross, the stigma of the Lord's Passion, the emblem of the soldiery, or rather, of what was to be the soldiery of God. This, made of any kind of cloth, he ordered to be sewed upon the shirts, cloaks, and byrra of those who were about to go. He commanded that if anyone, after receiving this emblem, or after taking openly this vow, should shrink from his good intent through base change of heart, or any affection for his parents, he should be regarded an outlaw forever, unless he repented and again undertook whatever of his pledge he had omitted.